GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-17-2012, 21:09   #21
Gpruitt54
Senior Member
 
Gpruitt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 713
I just returned from the range after trying out my first reloading 9mm rounds. I've been reloading .40S&W rounds for a month. I've loaded and fired about 300 .40S&W rounds with no issues at all. However my 9mm reloads had lots of feeding issues. Out of 200 rounds, about 10 rounds jammed while the rounds were moving up the feed ramp. I am using a factory crimp (Lee 4 die set), but apparently I am not putting enough crimp on the rounds.

So, how much crimp is enough; and how much crimp is too much; and how do Itell when enough is enough? I have to assume that I have not enough crimp on my 9mm rounds. But I need some confirmation. During my range visit, the accuracy was very good; nice tight groups, though slightly to the left of aimpoint. Factory rounds are dead-on true to aimpoint.

I am using 115gn 9mm FMJ bullets form Precision Delta. My brass is once fired brass that has been tumbled clean to a high shine.

My weapon is a Glock19.

Last edited by Gpruitt54; 09-18-2012 at 08:06..
Gpruitt54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 21:55   #22
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
This entire thread has been about crimping straightwall pistol cartridges.

All you want to do is close up the case mouth. You don't want to crimp so much that you mark the bullet. The casemouth should be about 0.0001" smaller in diameter than the diameter of the cartridge about 0.030" away. In other words, put a straightedge along the bullet and you should not see daylight anywhere along the bullet portion of the cartridge.

The other thing mentioned in this thread is the the FCD is NOT the way to do it. Use the thing on a fishing line and after you cast, cut the string.

Buy a legitimate Taper Crimp Die
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSe...aper+crimp+die++

See post #5 in this thread for more about the FCD

Some bullet profiles are harder to feed than others. Sometimes excessive OAL make feeding more difficult.

If you are using plated bullets, make sure your crimp doesn't break through the plating. You have a little more latitude to overcrimp on lead or jacketed bullets but you still shouldn't leave much of a mark. It is important that the round headspace on the casemouth and this won't happen if you bury it in the bullet.

Do you have a case gauge? If not, get one.

Take the barrel out of your gun and use the chamber as a gauge. Drop a loaded round in the chamber and spin it. The only part that should drag is the leading edge of the case mouth. You can put Dykem Blue on the cartridge to see where it rubs the chamber.




You can also use a Sharpie.

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 03:07   #23
Jager247
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 15
You will need to remove the bell that the powder/expander die put in. You will either need to use the crimp function of the seater die or FCD to do that. I like to use the FCD because I like to use the post sizing ring as a case gage. If the round doesn't get post sized it should be within spec and function in your gun. If it does get post sized then I set it to the side and inspect it or pull it apart and reuse the components.
Jager247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 06:11   #24
shotgunred
reloading nut
 
shotgunred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: N W Washington
Posts: 7,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]

So, how much crimp is enough; and how much crimp is too much; and how do Itell when enough is enough? I have to assume that I have not enough crimp on my9mm rounds. But I need some confirmation. During my range visit, the accuracywas very good; nice tight groups, though slightly to the left of aimpoint.Factory rounds are dead-on true to aimpoint.

You are trying to straighten the case wall with out pushing it in. So it should feel straight with your finger. It should hold the bullet so that you can not move the bullet in the case by pushing on it. But no tight that if you pull it there is a mark on the bullet when you pull it..
__________________
When dealing with Democrats, let us remember we are
not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with
creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudices
and motivated by pride and vanity.
shotgunred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 11:02   #25
Gpruitt54
Senior Member
 
Gpruitt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunred View Post
You are trying to straighten the case wall with out pushing it in. So it should feel straight with your finger. It should hold the bullet so that you can not move the bullet in the case by pushing on it. But no tight that if you pull it there is a mark on the bullet when you pull it..
Great! I'll go back and reset the factory crimp die to a better setting. I started with using a factory round as a starting setting for the factory crimp die.
Gpruitt54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 14:57   #26
HAMMERHEAD
Senior Member
 
HAMMERHEAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
However my 9mm reloads had lots of feeding issues. Out of 200 rounds, about 10 rounds jammed while the rounds were moving up the feed ramp. I am using a factory crimp (Lee 4 die set), but apparently I am not putting enough crimp on the rounds.
I would look at charge weight/power level, cartridge length or bullet choice as possible issues with feed reliability before crimps.
Glock 19's seem to like longer OAL's and full power loads to cycle reliably.

Last edited by HAMMERHEAD; 09-18-2012 at 14:59..
HAMMERHEAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 20:55   #27
Gpruitt54
Senior Member
 
Gpruitt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD View Post
I would look at charge weight/power level, cartridge length or bullet choice as possible issues with feed reliability before crimps.
Glock 19's seem to like longer OAL's and full power loads to cycle reliably.
OK, I am not discounting any possible cause. My factory loads all run well. I am absolutely sure of the powder loads in my rounds. I am following to the letter, the load information provided in my Lee manual. On the topic of crimp, I just took a close look at the adjustment of my crimp die, and basically, there is no factory crimp to speak of. I'm adjusting the factory crimp to apply a light level of crimp. Afterwards, I will manually cycle the slide with some rounds and see how they do. Of course, I will also fire the rounds at the range and see how they do.
Gpruitt54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 21:39   #28
Colorado4Wheel
Senior Member
 
Colorado4Wheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 14,406
You can use the jaws of your dial calipers to hold the loaded round. You will visually be able to see any remaining flare between the case and the jaws if you hold it up to a light source. Or you can just measure the end of the case and see if the flare still exists.
__________________
Steve
Colorado4Wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 13:11   #29
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,891
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD View Post
I would look at charge weight/power level, cartridge length or bullet choice as possible issues with feed reliability before crimps.
Glock 19's seem to like longer OAL's and full power loads to cycle reliably.
Just not my exp w/ Glocks at all. If anything, Glock's will run w/ a broad range of vel better than other designs. The generous chambers also allow variations in crimp not allowed in other designs. I am doubting crimp is the issue if the round will plunk test in the bbl. Soemthing else is amiss.
Quote:
I am following to the letter, the load information provided in my Lee manual.
Meaning what? Load data has a range. Starting loads will often fail to provide 100% reliable functioning in many semis. You never mention the specs of your 9mm load. Something else is likely causing you the feeding issues, not crimp. If you can not see the flare, your crimp is likely fine.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 09-19-2012 at 13:14..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 13:42   #30
Colorado4Wheel
Senior Member
 
Colorado4Wheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: CO
Posts: 14,406
For the record. LEE's reloading data is vague and incomplete. It is condensed from multiple sources and put into a table that looks like it all came from the same place. That is NOT the case. It is simply public domain data that he has put in a chart for your convenience.

Get another source for your data. I would recommend Lyman.
__________________
Steve
Colorado4Wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 14:19   #31
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
It's probably worth discussing the load. What bullet, what and how much powder, what OAL?

If the factory rounds work and yours don't, make yours more like factory. Is the bullet profile the same? Is the OAL the same?

What does the round look like when it jams? Is the bullet up against the top of the chamber and the base still under the lips on the magazine? The OAL is too long or the bullet profile could be an issue.

You can't simply shorten up the OAL without considering the increase in pressure. This will be very important if you are anywhere near a max load.

And one last time: Lose the FCD and get a real taper crimp die!

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin

Last edited by F106 Fan; 09-19-2012 at 14:20..
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 20:24   #32
Gpruitt54
Senior Member
 
Gpruitt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Just not my exp w/ Glocks at all. If anything, Glock's will run w/ a broad range of vel better than other designs. The generous chambers also allow variations in crimp not allowed in other designs. I am doubting crimp is the issue if the round will plunk test in the bbl. Soemthing else is amiss.

Meaning what? Load data has a range. Starting loads will often fail to provide 100% reliable functioning in many semis. You never mention the specs of your 9mm load. Something else is likely causing you the feeding issues, not crimp. If you can not see the flare, your crimp is likely fine.
If I examine my reload rounds against a factory round, my rounds seem tohave a tiny, perceptible gap, between the case neck and the bullet. I've adjusted my factory crimp die to apply a better/closer crimp between the caseneck and the bullet.

These were my very first 9mm reloads. My .40S&W reloads feed perfectly through my Glock 27. I've been reloading .40S&W for about a month. I amusing Lee Classic Turret Press and die sets for both 9mm and .40S&W.

I am using the mid-point of the powder load range highlighted in my Leemanual. I am doing this with both the 9mm and .40S&W reloads. I like the mid-pointof the powder weight range, I get tighter groupings. I'm reloading foraccuracy. I am not at all interested in hot loads.
Gpruitt54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 20:55   #33
Gpruitt54
Senior Member
 
Gpruitt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
It's probably worth discussing the load. What bullet, what and how much powder, what OAL?

If the factory rounds work and yours don't, make yours more like factory. Is the bullet profile the same? Is the OAL the same?

What does the round look like when it jams? Is the bullet up against the top of the chamber and the base still under the lips on the magazine? The OAL is too long or the bullet profile could be an issue.

You can't simply shorten up the OAL without considering the increase in pressure. This will be very important if you are anywhere near a max load.

And one last time: Lose the FCD and get a real taper crimp die!

Richard

Good questions. My factory rounds are 1.12 OAL.
  • I set my seating die to match the factory round's OAL.
  • I am using Accurate #2 powder.
  • My manual sets the powder weight between 3.6gn to 4.5gn.
  • My loads have 3.8gn of Accurate #2.
When the bullets jam, the noise of the bullet is just outside the chamber. The sholder of the bullet is resting on the feed ramp. The case neck appears to be hung up on the bottom of the feed ramp.

Does Lee make a taper crimp die?

Last edited by Gpruitt54; 09-19-2012 at 21:03..
Gpruitt54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 21:19   #34
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post

Does Lee make a taper crimp die?
Yes:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/274...-die-9mm-luger

I'll leave comments re: the load to those with more experience with 9mm

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 21:42   #35
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
What the heck, I'll jump in...

For the Sierra 115 gr FMJ, the Accurate manual gives, for #2:
Quote:
No 2 115 SIE FMJ 3.7 971 4.6 1088 34302 1.100
Your load is very light and won't even make minor power factor for competition. Minor requires a power factor of 125,000 (we call it 125 by dropping the last 3 digits) which is the bullet weight in grains times the velocity in feet per second. Your power factor is only 112 - very light...

You are using slightly more than the minimum powder but you are setting the OAL a little longer than the Accurate data. Therefore, your velocity is not likely to be more than 971 fps. This may not be enough to reliably cycle the gun.

It might turn out that the slide is not moving fully to the rear and therefore, not properly engaging the top round in the magazine.

You might be better off using something like Unique. Sierra lists the OAL of their 115 gr FMJ at 1.100" with Unique 4.9 gr -> 1000 fps up to 6.6 gr -> 1250 fps.

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 06:27   #36
Gpruitt54
Senior Member
 
Gpruitt54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
What the heck, I'll jump in...

For the Sierra 115 gr FMJ, the Accurate manual gives, for #2:


Your load is very light and won't even make minor power factor for competition. Minor requires a power factor of 125,000 (we call it 125 by dropping the last 3 digits) which is the bullet weight in grains times the velocity in feet per second. Your power factor is only 112 - very light...

You are using slightly more than the minimum powder but you are setting the OAL a little longer than the Accurate data. Therefore, your velocity is not likely to be more than 971 fps. This may not be enough to reliably cycle the gun.

It might turn out that the slide is not moving fully to the rear and therefore, not properly engaging the top round in the magazine.

You might be better off using something like Unique. Sierra lists the OAL of their 115 gr FMJ at 1.100" with Unique 4.9 gr -> 1000 fps up to 6.6 gr -> 1250 fps.

Richard

For of all, thanks for your reply. These forums are great for a new reloader my myself.

I am going to address your topics out of turn. I have Unique. I am not usingit because my manual does not call for Unique for 115gn jacketed bullets. Also,Unique and HP-38 (I have both) were giving inconsistent measures through my Lee auto desks. For me, the flake powders like Unique and HP-38 provided very inconsistent loads as opposed to the very consistent load weights I am getting with the Accurate #2 powder. It's because the Accurate #2 granules are very small beads (spherical balls). These fill the Lee auto disk cavity more consistently from drop to drop.Also, I found that the flake powders left loads of ash in the barrel. These powders were very dirty powders. I am not weighting powder by hand. I prefer not to.

You mentioned that another manual called for a recipe that was different than my Lee manual. As a new reloader, I find this difference from manual to manual to be very frustrating. So, I am looking at only one manual in this case itís the Lee manual. I have a Lyman manual, but it also calls for different powder loads that the Lee manual calls for. There are so many recipes, I assume they are all correct, but I cannot case after this recipe today and that recipe tomorrow.

I will address your other comments in a separate posting. Got to get towork.
Gpruitt54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 07:48   #37
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
No two data sources will ever agree on anything! Just the way it is...

Glocks aren't known for tolerating light loads. Sure, they can be modified but, out of the box, they tend to like NATO level loads.

I have no idea what a NATO level load is but I would start by noting that 'minor' power factor for IDPA competition is 125 and I would probably load a little over that so that I didn't get disqualified at a match. I'm not saying that you should compete or anything like that. I'm just saying that a reasonable power factor might be somewhere around 130.

So, for a 130 power factor with a 115 gr bullet, I need to get to 1130 fps. Then I would look at the max load for Accurate No 2 and realize that I can't get there. Max is only 1088 fps which results in JUST making 'minor' with a full charge!

In my view, this is the wrong powder for the application.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...d_data_3.5.pdf

So, I would look around for something else. From Hornady 8th Edition, Power Pistol is a candidate. Somewhere around 5.8 gr will do the job and the max is 6.7 gr (1250 fps). There is plenty of room for error in dispensing...

Note that Hornady also specs the OAL of the 115 gr FMJ at 1.100". Also note that the 6.7 gr max matches the Alliant reload data although Alliant moves the OAL to 1.125":
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...8&cartridge=23

Quoting from another forum talking about NATO loads:
Quote:
Regular WWB 115grn FMJs move out at 1190fps (according to Winchester), probably as close as you can get without going to a high pressure loading.
Maybe you can check this. The point is, even Winchester White Box, which is considered marginal in Glocks, is moving pretty fast!

I have never used Power Pistol but I see it recommended around here. Accurate No. 7 wil also deliver 1150 fps with a max load pushing 1200 fps so there is a little room for error.

If you don't have Hornady 8th Ed., Speer #14, Sierra Ed. V 5th Printing and perhaps a couple of others, your library is incomplete. You simply can't have too much data. At a minimum, it is nice to check at least two references for every load. The powder manufacturers all have online data and some have downloadable manuals.

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin

Last edited by F106 Fan; 09-20-2012 at 08:56..
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 08:26   #38
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
It might be worth following along with this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1443463

WSF powder will get you to 1195 fps with 5.7 gr. You can get the data from the Hodgdon site.

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 09:15   #39
F106 Fan
Senior Member
 
F106 Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6,108
Federal Champion 115 gr advertises 1125 fps and chronos a little higher:

Richard
__________________
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin
F106 Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 09:54   #40
unclebob
Senior Member
 
unclebob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Mary Esther FL
Posts: 6,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Glocks aren't known for tolerating light loads. Sure, they can be modified but, out of the box, they tend to like NATO level loads.
Don't tell that to my 16 stock Glocks that I have owned. They might go on strike. 9mm, 40, 45acp and gap.
__________________
Team Carver Custom
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Life Member
GSSF Life Member
___________________________________________
unclebob is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:04.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 740
166 Members
574 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31