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Old 09-20-2012, 10:11   #41
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A cheap fix for your problem would be to drop down to a 15 pound spring. However re-springing the gun will not make you a better reloader. It will just let you use the load you have.

I can't give you a good working load with 115 gr because I never use them. You have to push your velocities higher with 115gr bullets to get your slide to fully function. On your next order switch to 124 gr. The 9mm luger was designed around a 124gr bullet. The only advantage of 115gr is they are a tiny bit cheaper.

I agree with Richard that WSF is a good powder for 9mm. It is my current favorite for 124gr.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:25   #42
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Don't tell that to my 16 stock Glocks that I have owned. They might go on strike. 9mm, 40, 45acp and gap.
Sure, but will the 9mm Glock shoot a 112 pf load? Particularly a Gen 4 with the new and improved RSA... Not that I know whether a Gen 4 is at issue here.

That's my only point. The load may be too light to cycle the gun.

To be perfectly fair, I have never shot a 9mm Glock. The only Glock I have is a G21SF (.45 ACP) and it shoots my moderate loads very well. Still, they are around 175 power factor, somewhat more than the 165 it takes to make 'major'.

Over on the General Glocking forum, there are a lot of owners of Gen 4 9mm guns complaining about Federal Champion and even it is running 129 power factor.

The few thousand 9mm 115 gr that I have made use either WSF or Bullseye and both will cycle an XD9 just fine. But 9mm isn't my thing...

Richard
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:18   #43
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Looks like the lowest I have gone with a 115gr bullets is with a PF of 113. Most of my 9mm shooting is with 135 and 147 gr bullets. 115gr are just too light for knocking over pepper poppers.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:19   #44
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There's nothing like a 230 gr LRN for knocking things down!

I used to shoot bowling pins with 230 gr Black Talon bullets. Those things would GRAB the pin. Back in the day...

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Old 09-20-2012, 12:36   #45
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I personally have no use for 230gr 45 bullets. I use 200gr. You start out lunging around 100 rds. of 45 300rds some times 400rds of 135 or 147gr 9mm rounds. 40 or 50 mags and 3 or 4 guns. The least amount of weight the better also I think the 200 gr have less perceived recoil, cheaper and more accurate and less weight than the 230.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:51   #46
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I agree! I shoot mostly 200 gr LSWC. I load FMJ for my grandson (by edict, he doesn't shoot lead bullets) and sometimes 230 gr LRN just to change things up.

But, by far, the 200 gr LSWC is my bullet of choice.

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Old 09-20-2012, 15:28   #47
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Just not my exp w/ Glocks at all. If anything, Glock's will run w/ a broad range of vel better than other designs. The generous chambers also allow variations in crimp not allowed in other designs.
I only meant that every gun will have it's minimum power required to cycle it. Many handloaders start very low, too low to cycle any 9mm auto. But I do agree that the G-19 is very tolerant of power levels and crimps.
I've run many hundreds of uncrimped 9mm practice rounds through my G-19. I just resized/reprimed, charged and seated the bullet with a competition seater. No flaring/expanding before bullet seating, no crimp after. All ran 100%
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Old 09-20-2012, 17:03   #48
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Looks like the lowest I have gone with a 115gr bullets is with a PF of 113. Most of my 9mm shooting is with 135 and 147 gr bullets. 115gr are just too light for knocking over pepper poppers.
My only (reasonably priced) range options are indoor with paper targest. For those purposes, 115gn bullets seem perfect.
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Old 09-20-2012, 18:49   #49
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I only meant that every gun will have it's minimum power required to cycle it. Many handloaders start very low, too low to cycle any 9mm auto. But I do agree that the G-19 is very tolerant of power levels and crimps.
I've run many hundreds of uncrimped 9mm practice rounds through my G-19. I just resized/reprimed, charged and seated the bullet with a competition seater. No flaring/expanding before bullet seating, no crimp after. All ran 100%
So, I need to increase my powder load??? I'll load 50 rounds with 4.0gn of Accurate #2 and see how they run. These will be my second batch of 9mm reloaded rounds.
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Old 09-20-2012, 19:06   #50
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No two data sources will ever agree on anything! Just the way it is...

Glocks aren't known for tolerating light loads. Sure, they can be modified but, out of the box, they tend to like NATO level loads.

I have no idea what a NATO level load is but I would start by noting that 'minor' power factor for IDPA competition is 125 and I would probably load a little over that so that I didn't get disqualified at a match. I'm not saying that you should compete or anything like that. I'm just saying that a reasonable power factor might be somewhere around 130.

So, for a 130 power factor with a 115 gr bullet, I need to get to 1130 fps. Then I would look at the max load for Accurate No 2 and realize that I can't get there. Max is only 1088 fps which results in JUST making 'minor' with a full charge!

In my view, this is the wrong powder for the application.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...d_data_3.5.pdf

So, I would look around for something else. From Hornady 8th Edition, Power Pistol is a candidate. Somewhere around 5.8 gr will do the job and the max is 6.7 gr (1250 fps). There is plenty of room for error in dispensing...

Note that Hornady also specs the OAL of the 115 gr FMJ at 1.100". Also note that the 6.7 gr max matches the Alliant reload data although Alliant moves the OAL to 1.125":
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...8&cartridge=23

Quoting from another forum talking about NATO loads:


Maybe you can check this. The point is, even Winchester White Box, which is considered marginal in Glocks, is moving pretty fast!

I have never used Power Pistol but I see it recommended around here. Accurate No. 7 wil also deliver 1150 fps with a max load pushing 1200 fps so there is a little room for error.

If you don't have Hornady 8th Ed., Speer #14, Sierra Ed. V 5th Printing and perhaps a couple of others, your library is incomplete. You simply can't have too much data. At a minimum, it is nice to check at least two references for every load. The powder manufacturers all have online data and some have downloadable manuals.

Richard
Gee, where do I start? Lots of this and other conversation focuses on terms that I am not fully aquanted with. Terms line Power factors, I don't know what that is or how it is calculated, or how to make that make since to what I am trying to do. Right now, I am trying not to over do a load and damage my self, my weapon, or someone else.

Until I am more experienced, I am going to stick with what is in the Lee manual and my Lyman manual. These are all that I have. I will check online and see what is on the sites of my powder manufacturer. Do I really need to go out and buy another pound of powder? I have Accurate #2 (my now favorite), Unique, and HP-38.

Will I be ok by just increasing my powder load from my current 3.8gn to, lets say, 4.0gn of Accurate #2? At this point, the last thing I want to do is buy another poind of powder.
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Old 09-20-2012, 19:31   #51
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Power factor has absolutely nothing to do with reloading. It is a crude means of determining an energy level that is used in competitive shooting sports, to try to prevent "gamers" from shooting powder puff loads in an attempt to obtain a competitive edge over other shooters.

As mentioned before, Lee's reloading is nothing more than a compilation of reloading data from many varied sources. The problem with Lee's data is that you have no idea of the bullet profile, barrel length, the testing apparatus or any of a number of other variables surrounding the component selection. That is why we don't put much faith in Lee's data. sure, it is reliable data but under what testing conditions and with what specific components?

Your intention of using Lyman's data and that of your powder manufacturer is a good start.
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Old 09-20-2012, 19:31   #52
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Load 4.0 and see what it does. I think you 3.8 is a little low.
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Old 09-20-2012, 21:27   #53
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Load 4.0 and see what it does. I think you 3.8 is a little low.
Good. I just loaded 50 rounds using 4.0gn of Accurate #2. I've also snugged up the crimp die just a hair. Tomorrow, I'll stop at the range and try out the rounds.

I'll report the results.

I really want to thank you guys for your sound advise. When ever I post a question about reloading, I come away a little smarter.

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Old 09-20-2012, 22:22   #54
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Gee, where do I start? Lots of this and other conversation focuses on terms that I am not fully aquanted with. Terms line Power factors, I don't know what that is or how it is calculated, or how to make that make since to what I am trying to do. Right now, I am trying not to over do a load and damage my self, my weapon, or someone else.
The power factor calculation is described in post 35 of this thread. It is a meaningless number by itself but it can be used to compare bullet weights and velocities. But, for a given bullet weight, simply comparing velocities is enough.

Your load won't come anywhere near either Winchester White Box or Federal Champion and, in fact, if you loaded MAX with the No. 2, you still can't match what are considered marginal factory loads. And loading MAX is something to avoid.

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Until I am more experienced, I am going to stick with what is in the Lee manual and my Lyman manual. These are all that I have. I will check online and see what is on the sites of my powder manufacturer. Do I really need to go out and buy another pound of powder? I have Accurate #2 (my now favorite), Unique, and HP-38.
I don't have the Lee manual (but I do have the book) and I have Lyman's. I don't tend to use either of them. I prefer Hornady, Speer and Sierra. For rifle I use only Sierra as I use their bullets.

No. 2 is just a poor choice for the 115 gr 9mm load. However, if it works, it works. Use it! But I certainly wouldn't buy another pound.

Usually during load development, the reloader makes about 10 rounds (sometimes just 5) each of several different loadings in 0.1 gr steps between published MIN and MAX (and I stay away from MAX). At the range they are shot from MIN toward MAX and if the gun shoots well at some particular loading, there isn't a lot of excess inventory.

You need to be looking for velocity in the range of 1130 fps so load somewhere between the table values for 1100 and 1150 fps. The thing is, at the 1150 end, it would be best if it is not a MAX load. It would be better if the powder will get to 1200 or 1250 so there is some room for error in dispensing.

Richard
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Old 09-20-2012, 23:06   #55
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You mentioned that another manual called for a recipe that was different than my Lee manual. As a new reloader, I find this difference from manual to manual to be very frustrating. So, I am looking at only one manual in this case it’s the Lee manual. I have a Lyman manual, but it also calls for different powder loads that the Lee manual calls for. There are so many recipes, I assume they are all correct, but I cannot case after this recipe today and that recipe tomorrow. [/SIZE][/FONT]

I will address your other comments in a separate posting. Got to get towork.
It's NOT a good way to reload. One data source can be actually more diff to work with, especially in the Lee manual. I always recommend as many data points as possible. Avg the data & use avg middle if you like.
On your crimp, if you can see a visible gap between bullet & case neck something isn't right for sure. Again, hate the LFCD, but it can be made to work. The seating die will also crimp, just seating & crimping have to be done in one step.
All of the powders you have will work, some better than others in the Lee measure. The load of 3.8gr of AA#2 is very light, not middle of the data at all for a 115gr bullet. Hornady lists 4.3gr as starting. Bump your charge up & fix the crimp so there is no visible gap between case mouth & bullet. It's no diff than loading for the 40.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:06   #56
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It's NOT a good way to reload. One data source can be actually more diff to work with, especially in the Lee manual. I always recommend as many data points as possible. Avg the data & use avg middle if you like.
On your crimp, if you can see a visible gap between bullet & case neck something isn't right for sure. Again, hate the LFCD, but it can be made to work. The seating die will also crimp, just seating & crimping have to be done in one step.
All of the powders you have will work, some better than others in the Lee measure. The load of 3.8gr of AA#2 is very light, not middle of the data at all for a 115gr bullet. Hornady lists 4.3gr as starting. Bump your charge up & fix the crimp so there is no visible gap between case mouth & bullet. It's no diff than loading for the 40.
I've only been doing this for slightly more than a month. Before I purchased my equipment, I was reading the Lyman manual. During that period, nothing was ever mentioned about using several sources for load data. In fact, the books say to be weary of recommended load data and only follow the information in the tables. Keep in mind, someone new at this is going to play it safe and start with the lowest loads as described in the load tables.

Many of the loads in the tables are well below 1100 fps. Why is this information in the manuals if these are somehow not recommended as stated by some on this thread? Why would the manuals include these so-called light loads if they are not to be used. This is confusing to a new loader. It is confusing to have the manuals recommend starting loads that are totally contradicted by contributors to this and other reloading forums.

I thought I was doing the right thing and now I don't know what to do. Please consider the concerns of a new reloader. Consider that for a new reloader having several powders and bullets readily available on hand are not likely. i have what I have and am trying to make the best of my current inventory; such that it is.

I have three powders, only of which I like; that is the Accurate #2. I like it because it burns cleanly and it measures consistently with my equipment. I have one bullet weight, that is 115gn FMJ. Until I am able to buy other weight bullets, that is it for me.

I thank you guys for all the good advice, but at this point I am now quite confused on some important points.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:36   #57
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What is recommended is to use only published data. No one ever says only use their book. Diff test platforms, & components are why you need more than one source. There test platforms are not your gun. Your componenets are rarely exactly the book componenets. So starting data is safe but rarely going to be the best performer, particularly in semiautos that have to function not just go bang.
You should only be using one bullet & one powder to learn on. THis will keep confusion down & safety at it's highest level. All of this is confusing because you are new & unless you read every book on reloading available, taken a class &/or have a mentor, your knowledge level is minimal & learning curve steep. The more you know & understand, the less confusion you'll have. So you can bump along & figure it out your self or continue to ask question & continue to learn your new hobby. The more you know the faster you learn.
So ask questions, some of us here know quite a bit, some of us know as much as the guys writing the manuals. You don't handload 100s of 1000s of rounds of dozens of calibers & survive to tell about it doing something wrong or stupid. SOme of us reload for calibers w/o any printed reference. Yes, many of us know what we are doing. The trouble being new, you don't know enough to decide who knows more than you.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:01   #58
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Use reliable published load data, start low and work it up. Usually, mid range loads or slightly higher work best. But, nothing is set in stone.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:30   #59
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In fact, the books say to be weary of recommended load data and only follow the information in the tables. Keep in mind, someone new at this is going to play it safe and start with the lowest loads as described in the load tables.


You should be very wary of load information obtained through Internet forums and such. Use only PUBLISHED information, either from reloading manuals, powder data manuals or powder manufacturer's web sites.

And still it won't all agree...

If good old 'Billy-Bob' gives you a load via a forum or even at the range, cross-check is against published information. If the load isn't within range in some publication, DON'T use it! It doesn't happen here but I have read where some forums have trolls providing bad information on purpose.

And NEVER trust any numbers that I type! I am getting old, my typing is poor and my eyesight isn't much either!

Quote:
Many of the loads in the tables are well below 1100 fps. Why is this information in the manuals if these are somehow not recommended as stated by some on this thread? Why would the manuals include these so-called light loads if they are not to be used. This is confusing to a new loader. It is confusing to have the manuals recommend starting loads that are totally contradicted by contributors to this and other reloading forums.


There are guns other than Glocks. I know it's hard to believe but, really, there are 9mm guns that will cycle on light loads. The Glock comes from the factory as a combat weapon and the designers expect to have full power NATO rounds. Then there is the issue with the oversprung Gen 4 9mms where Glock has gone through 4 iterations of stepping back on the recoil spring. The guns wouldn't shoot commercial ammo at all when they were first released.

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I thought I was doing the right thing and now I don't know what to do. Please consider the concerns of a new reloader. Consider that for a new reloader having several powders and bullets readily available on hand are not likely. i have what I have and am trying to make the best of my current inventory; such that it is.
One thing to do is read the stickies at the top of this forum. Among other things there is a strategy to working up loads from MIN toward (but maybe never reaching) MAX.

The other thing to do is ask questions. I don't think anyone around here would have recommended No. 2 for 115 gr 9mm. All would have probably recommended starting from MIN but they might have used a different souce and, therefore, a different MIN.

Coincidentally, there is a thread on 9mm powder going on right now. There is also a search feature for the forum.

Quote:
I have three powders, only of which I like; that is the Accurate #2. I like it because it burns cleanly and it measures consistently with my equipment. I have one bullet weight, that is 115gn FMJ. Until I am able to buy other weight bullets, that is it for me.
There are other powders that burn clean and can be used to produce more velocity. At full charge, No. 2 can't deliver a reasonable velocity. It's just the wrong powder.

As you work up toward (but hopefully never reaching) MAX, No. 2 might deliver a load capable of cycling your gun. But if you have a Gen 4, the RSA may still be too strong to allow the slide to cycle even if you get to MAX. You'll just have to check and see.
Quote:
I thank you guys for all the good advice, but at this point I am now quite confused on some important points.
You have been given 3 things to consider:
  1. Get rid of the FCD and buy a taper crimp die
  2. Get another load manual (or two) - Hornady and Speer are popular
  3. Use a different powder
That should keep you busy for a while. Good luck!

Richard
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Old 09-22-2012, 21:59   #60
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It's NOT a good way to reload. One data source can be actually more diff to work with, especially in the Lee manual. I always recommend as many data points as possible. Avg the data & use avg middle if you like.
On your crimp, if you can see a visible gap between bullet & case neck something isn't right for sure. Again, hate the LFCD, but it can be made to work. The seating die will also crimp, just seating & crimping have to be done in one step.
All of the powders you have will work, some better than others in the Lee measure. The load of 3.8gr of AA#2 is very light, not middle of the data at all for a 115gr bullet. Hornady lists 4.3gr as starting. Bump your charge up & fix the crimp so there is no visible gap between case mouth & bullet. It's no diff than loading for the 40.
I stopped the my local sporting good store and picked up a Hornady reloading manual, 8th edition. That makes three manuals all together. Thanks for the recommendation. Unlike the other manuals I've been using, the Hornady manual starts with much higher FPS powder loads.

After trying two of the recommended loads at the range this weekend, I came away very impressed with the results. First of all, I am not getting feed problems that I experienced with my initial reloads of 9mm. According to the Hornady manual, my loads are in at or around 1000 FPS using 4.3gn of Accurate #2, with a 115gn, FMJ, bullet. With this load, I am getting 4" groups @ 10 yds. This kind of performance is a personal best for me. Never shot that consistently with factory loads.

So, as many of you recommended, it was an increase in powder load that did the trick. I am documenting my loads and performance. Gee, if this keeps up, before long, I'll kind of know what I am doing.

Thanks guys, I'm a happy dude!
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