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Old 09-17-2012, 21:02   #81
QNman
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Yeah, my bad. Did a lot of posting that morning. Meant acutely.
You realize the difference in those terms, right? Lots of "acutely aware" folks in the nuthouse... I'm just saying...

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That's fair. If you honestly believe these atrocities have taken place over a YT video then you are as well. It's come out today that the Libyan embassy had 3 days notice, not two. So one must ask himself "Why would they ignore it?" Seems for all the money (billions!) we're spending on intelligence and police state and surveillance measures, why are warnings of attacks being ignored? Someone is choosing not to act for a reason.
I don't. But neither do I think this was some high-handed double-super-secret CIA conspiracy. I think it was utter failure, from the top down. Hubris resulting in American deaths and yet more apparent impotence. Yet another chapter written in the great "apology tour".

Occam's Razor.
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Old 09-17-2012, 21:10   #82
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Originally Posted by QNman View Post
You realize the difference in those terms, right? Lots of "acutely aware" folks in the nuthouse... I'm just saying...
It was a typo. Relax.

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I don't. But neither do I think this was some high-handed double-super-secret CIA conspiracy. I think it was utter failure, from the top down. Hubris resulting in American deaths and yet more apparent impotence. Yet another chapter written in the great "apology tour".

Occam's Razor.
I edited the quoted post to be more specific while you were replying.

I find "utter failure" to be a strange statement. Do you think the people working in the Libyan embassy when that info came in had no sense of self-preservation? They just said "Oh ok that's cool, we'll just wait here until they show up and drag us into the street and kill us. Thanks for the tip though! Where's my coffee?" Occam's Razor is a good theory in many cases but assuming Occam's Razor in examples like these is to state that the embassy diplomats are just plain retards to the highest degree that don't even know how to save their own hides. I think THAT is the most unlikely scenario.
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Old 09-17-2012, 21:17   #83
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
It was a typo. Relax.



I edited the quoted post to be more specific while you were replying.

I find "utter failure" to be a strange statement. Do you think the people working in the Libyan embassy when that info came in had no sense of self-preservation? They just said "Oh ok that's cool, we'll just wait here until they show up and drag us into the street and kill us. Thanks for the tip though! Where's my coffee?" Occam's Razor is a good theory in many cases but assuming Occam's Razor in examples like these is to state that the embassy diplomats are just plain retards to the highest degree that don't even know how to save their own hides. I think THAT is the most unlikely scenario.
OR... and I'm just spitballing here... they called their superiors and said "WTF", and were told "situation normal, let it slide".

How were they supposed to escape once the fit hit the shan? Teleport? Magic carpet?

Typical... it must be the victims fault then, eh?
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Old 09-17-2012, 21:19   #84
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Btw, considering all the covert shenanigans that the gov't gets caught up in, (see Fast and Furious, Iran Contra, etc) I don't understand why it's so far fetched that an embassy attack could have been facilitated by covert operators.
There's that "acutely aware" mind operating again...

That you don't see the difference isn't particularly surprising - given your brain type. I'd explain it - but I am apparently not that brain type.
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Old 09-17-2012, 21:26   #85
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OR... and I'm just spitballing here... they called their superiors and said "WTF", and were told "situation normal, let it slide".
And there you have it. That superior would be the individual that already knows something is coming and has been told to give the order to stand down and let it happen. That would be the State Dept official (CIA asset) that is in a position of power. So if you think that's crazy, I say again: "Someone is choosing not to act for a reason."

Assuming otherwise assumes that the people we're talking about are complete morons. They are not.


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How were they supposed to escape once the fit hit the shan? Teleport? Magic carpet?

Typical... it must be the victims fault then, eh?
They had three days, not three hours, which is an eternity to bolster Marine protection or get on a plane or do something other than sit around and wait to be killed. Hell, three minutes is all you need to hand out live ammo at least.

Plus, if you've ever worked in an office then you know gossip flies quickly. Embassy or not, people are going to start talking about a warning like that and it WILL make it's way up the chain.

Last edited by G19G20; 09-17-2012 at 21:31..
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Old 09-17-2012, 21:29   #86
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There's that "acutely aware" mind operating again...

That you don't see the difference isn't particularly surprising - given your brain type. I'd explain it - but I am apparently not that brain type.
Are you saying that Fast and Furious, Iran Contra, and the myriad of other covert operations that eventually get exposed are merely conspiracy theory? Im not following your point here. Our gov't gets caught doing all kinds of f'ed up stuff around the world, even to our own people. MK-Ultra is a perfect example of that.

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Old 09-18-2012, 06:15   #87
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The Internet keyboard commando has no clue about how this stuff works.

Barry and Hillary failed in a way that he would be absolutely apoplectic about if GWB had been in office. They own this, and the amount of cover he is trying to supply is amazing. He's been watching too much MSNBC again.

Some people here have actually had some skin in the game before.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:34   #88
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:44   #89
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
And there you have it. That superior would be the individual that already knows something is coming and has been told to give the order to stand down and let it happen. That would be the State Dept official (CIA asset) that is in a position of power. So if you think that's crazy, I say again: "Someone is choosing not to act for a reason."

Assuming otherwise assumes that the people we're talking about are complete morons. They are not.

They had three days, not three hours, which is an eternity to bolster Marine protection or get on a plane or do something other than sit around and wait to be killed. Hell, three minutes is all you need to hand out live ammo at least.

Plus, if you've ever worked in an office then you know gossip flies quickly. Embassy or not, people are going to start talking about a warning like that and it WILL make it's way up the chain.
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Last edited by QNman; 09-18-2012 at 06:47..
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:56   #90
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Old 09-18-2012, 14:18   #91
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Another communist news source (CNN) is also reporting that Libyan officials warned us of the attack three days before it occured.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/15/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2

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Apparently your reading comprehension skills are lacking. From the article:

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He said they told the diplomats that the security situation wasn't good for international business.

He did not, as you say, "warn us of the attack three days before it occurred."
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Old 09-18-2012, 15:04   #92
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hillary looks fed up, this also is bad for her resume....what a disaster we have in the middle east now and the press would be running a 24-7 feed about this if this happened during bush
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:14   #93
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
The Internet keyboard commando has no clue about how this stuff works.

Barry and Hillary failed in a way that he would be absolutely apoplectic about if GWB had been in office. They own this, and the amount of cover he is trying to supply is amazing. He's been watching too much MSNBC again.

Some people here have actually had some skin in the game before.
You mean like when warnings of 9/11 were ignored under the Bush administration? I see a trend here.

For the sake of argument, even if I accepted the premise that such events are truly just oversights, it only goes to show that the federal government and our overseas bureacracy is way too large to actually get anything done and needs to cut WAY back. What exactly are we spending all these hundreds of billions a year on if we can't even properly defend an embassy against an attack that we knew was coming? It doesn't really change the ultimate point that our intelligence, military, and diplomatic communities are entirely too large and wasteful to actually be worth anything. CUT IT WAY BACK!

Maybe Im just trying to find a justification for why our gov't is so stupid and incompetent. I can't accept that people in our apparatus are making six figures and doing NOTHING to earn it, so there must be another reason why these things happen.

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Old 09-19-2012, 05:47   #94
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Apparently your reading comprehension skills are lacking. From the article:




He did not, as you say, "warn us of the attack three days before it occurred."
You left out this part:

Quote:
Three days before the deadly assault on the United States consulate in Libya, a local security official says he met with American diplomats in the city and warned them about deteriorating security.

"The situation is frightening, it scares us," Mabrouk said they told the U.S. officials. He did not say how they responded.

Mabrouk said it was not the first time he has warned foreigners about the worsening security situation in the face of the growing presence of armed jihadist groups in the Benghazi area.
Nice try Bucko!

Actually reading comphrehension and critical thinking implies the ability to draw conclusions and make inferences from the material you have read.

Taken along with the approaching anniversary of 9/11 the obvious response should be to be on your toes and maybe add a little extra security.

It is true that there is a lot of bad and irrelevant intel and picking out the important bits is very difficult but...

Context is everything.

9/11 provides the context.

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Old 09-19-2012, 06:19   #95
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
You mean like when warnings of 9/11 were ignored under the Bush administration? I see a trend here.

For the sake of argument, even if I accepted the premise that such events are truly just oversights, it only goes to show that the federal government and our overseas bureacracy is way too large to actually get anything done and needs to cut WAY back. What exactly are we spending all these hundreds of billions a year on if we can't even properly defend an embassy against an attack that we knew was coming? It doesn't really change the ultimate point that our intelligence, military, and diplomatic communities are entirely too large and wasteful to actually be worth anything. CUT IT WAY BACK!

Maybe Im just trying to find a justification for why our gov't is so stupid and incompetent. I can't accept that people in our apparatus are making six figures and doing NOTHING to earn it, so there must be another reason why these things happen.
Now it's pretty obvious that you are a blame America first type of a person, and that you think everything happens according to some master plan of a single entity. The fact Is there are thousands of competing interests, all with their own plans. There is a lot more chaos in the world than there is control.

Your lack of personal experience and multiple historical inaccuracies lends a lot of credence to the position that you really don't know much about what is really going on in the world. It's no wonder you can believe in a utopian paradise achievable by neoisolationism.
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Old 09-19-2012, 15:08   #96
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Call it whatever you like but if our own people are that incompetent then who exactly should I blame? The Chinese?
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Old 09-19-2012, 16:37   #97
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I'd start with basic "blame" (for what's that worth) on the perpetrators of the act. Now if you want reasons why they were successful, I could logically go the ineptitude of pretending that if we're nice to the muslim extremists they'll stop trying to kill everything from the west so we don't need to assess our security needs in that cesspool of humanity called the middle east on 9/11. How'd that work out here...our president apologizes for us being the great country we were and stands out of the way after stirring up democratic revolution that he somehow predicts will result in a peaceful democratic government taking over and giving up on killing us (this is starting to sound like somebody else's foreign policy) in an atmosphere of "islamic caliphate or bust."
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Old 09-19-2012, 17:42   #98
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I'd start with basic "blame" (for what's that worth) on the perpetrators of the act. Now if you want reasons why they were successful, I could logically go the ineptitude of pretending that if we're nice to the muslim extremists they'll stop trying to kill everything from the west so we don't need to assess our security needs in that cesspool of humanity called the middle east on 9/11. How'd that work out here...our president apologizes for us being the great country we were and stands out of the way after stirring up democratic revolution that he somehow predicts will result in a peaceful democratic government taking over and giving up on killing us (this is starting to sound like somebody else's foreign policy) in an atmosphere of "islamic caliphate or bust."

Well, gee...When you put it THAT way... Political Issues


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Old 09-19-2012, 18:06   #99
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I'd start with basic "blame" (for what's that worth) on the perpetrators of the act. Now if you want reasons why they were successful, I could logically go the ineptitude of pretending that if we're nice to the muslim extremists they'll stop trying to kill everything from the west so we don't need to assess our security needs in that cesspool of humanity called the middle east on 9/11. How'd that work out here...our president apologizes for us being the great country we were and stands out of the way after stirring up democratic revolution that he somehow predicts will result in a peaceful democratic government taking over and giving up on killing us (this is starting to sound like somebody else's foreign policy) in an atmosphere of "islamic caliphate or bust."
Im really not going to blame Libyans that are angry that their entire country was leveled and reduced to third world status overnight from outside interference and propaganda, mainly from our own military and media. You are aware that much of the "storyline" about the Libyan "revolution" was fabricated and inaccurate, right? The stories about Gaddafi bombing Tripoli were false, among other examples. Sorry but I don't subscribe to this strange notion that only Americans are allowed to respond angrily to being attacked by outside forces. That defies logic. I guess I just don't hate Muslims(tm) enough to buy into that (see: Holy War).

If you agree with what Cav said that the world is much more chaotic than controlled, you won't be able to control random angry mobs doing bad things. What you can do is ensure that our own intelligence apparatus takes proper measures when aware the dangers are coming, especially considering the price tag of said apparatus. I don't whitewash incompetence when Im paying for it. This country is $16 Trillion in debt and this is the best we can do?

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Old 09-19-2012, 18:20   #100
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Well see, it was not a terrorist attack. However it is a terrorist attack. And it was not pre-planned. However we believe that it was pre-planned by a former gitmo prisoner.

Yea, that's the ticket.
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