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Old 09-15-2012, 20:32   #1
Teecher45
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Strength in numbers?

Okay, so I was thinking. Why not just ask nicely? We all want a mainstream manufacture to produce "real 10mm loads", so I asked. I went on Hornady's website and found
http://www.hornady.com/contact_us
Look about halfway down and see an area to email them. Under Subject there is a drop down menu and a place for "New Product Suggestions". I asked nicely for a 10mm load in the 1250/1300 fps range. I explained to them they had the perfect bullet for it, and it would be nice for an American company to lead the way, so forth. I added that maybe they could add it to their Superformance Line or maybe even Zombie Max.
I am asking for you-guys (and everyone you know) to pile it on. Go to their website and ask for it, it won't hurt to ask. Then come back here and let us know you did. If you go in ask them to also consider a range ammo matching the velocity (maybe even steel cased FMJ). I forgot.
We could also consider other manufactures to request from (Speer comes to mind). If you do, feel free to post a link.
Please keep the posts positive, no "It'll never happen, you're crazy/stupid" and such. I know it's a long shot, but doesn't hurt to try!
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Last edited by Teecher45; 09-15-2012 at 21:37..
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Old 09-15-2012, 21:17   #2
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Originally Posted by Teecher45 View Post
Okay, so I was thinking. Why not just ask nicely? We all want a mainstream manufacture to produce "real 10mm loads", so I asked. I went on Hornady's website and found
http://www.hornady.com/contact_us
Look about halfway down and see an area to email them. Under Subject there is a drop down menu and a place for "New Product Suggestions". I asked nicely for a 10mm load in the 1250/1300 fps range. I explained to them they had the perfect bullet for it, and it would be nice for an American company to lead the way, so forth. I added that maybe they could add it to their Superformance Line or maybe even Zombie Max.
I am asking for you-guys (and everyone you know) to pile it on. Go to their website and ask for it, it won't hurt to ask. Then come back here and let us know you did. If you go in ask them to also consider a range ammo matching the velocity (maybe even steel cased FMJ). I forgot.
We could also consider other manufactures to request from (Speer comes to mind). If you do feel free to post a link.
Please keep the posts positive, no "It'll never happen, you're crazy/stupid" and such. I know it's a long shot, but doesn't hurt to try!
A most excellent suggestion. Kudos to you for presenting it.(I would now like to put in a plug for an idea that has been knocking around for a while as well. Hornaday has been very good about working with gun manufacturers on "proprietory rounds. I would like to kick them in the butt on the ".41 Special" It has much merit if loaded to the original specs suggested by Messers, Keith, Jordan and Skelton. There are a number of platforms that could more easily adapted to a .41 than a .44. Imagine a "bulldog gun in .41 with a rimmed case)None the less, I shall be glad to offer your suggestion to the company via the link.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:58   #3
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the problem is that most 10mm owners are convinced that faster is better regardless of bullet construction.

See the truth of the matter is that while the XTP is a fine bullet, it's not quite up to the task of 1300+fps 180gr velocities, neither is the gold dot. No current .401 HP bullet (that I'm aware of) is.

what we really need is a BONDED bullet of heavy enough construction to withstand the velocities the 10mm is capable of being loaded commerically and within SAAMI pressures in both pistols and carbines. Hornady actually does a pretty good job of hitting SAAMI pressures in the 10mm. when they release a round they KNOW what the pressures are.

We really need to focus less on velocity and more on bullet construction, as there is NO current bullet that is tough enough to perform reliably and expand at the hot 10mm velocities.

I'd like to see:
a 130gr class lead based jacketed bonded expanding (SP or HP) bullet in .401 that could handle 1500+ FPS

a 200gr lead based jacketed bonded expanding (SP or HP) bullet in .401 that could handle 1300 FPS

truely getting someone to load to velocity is not our problem, it's all about the bullet construction. if we can get the bullet, we can get the speed.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:14   #4
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Originally Posted by Ethereal Killer View Post
the problem is that most 10mm owners are convinced that faster is better regardless of bullet construction.

See the truth of the matter is that while the XTP is a fine bullet, it's not quite up to the task of 1300+fps 180gr velocities, neither is the gold dot. No current .401 HP bullet (that I'm aware of) is.

what we really need is a BONDED bullet of heavy enough construction to withstand the velocities the 10mm is capable of being loaded commerically and within SAAMI pressures in both pistols and carbines. Hornady actually does a pretty good job of hitting SAAMI pressures in the 10mm. when they release a round they KNOW what the pressures are.

We really need to focus less on velocity and more on bullet construction, as there is NO current bullet that is tough enough to perform reliably and expand at the hot 10mm velocities.

I'd like to see:
a 130gr class lead based jacketed bonded expanding (SP or HP) bullet in .401 that could handle 1500+ FPS

a 200gr lead based jacketed bonded expanding (SP or HP) bullet in .401 that could handle 1300 FPS

truely getting someone to load to velocity is not our problem, it's all about the bullet construction. if we can get the bullet, we can get the speed.
I think the OP is on the right track. Since the ammo companies have designed the bullets around what they want to produce it only seems logical that we inform the ammo companies about what we want to buy, and that would be something more than the 10mmlight/.40S&W Long loadings available today. Let them know we want real 10mm capabilities and let them work out the details.

Last edited by countrygun; 09-16-2012 at 11:14..
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:55   #5
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I think the OP is on the right track. Since the ammo companies have designed the bullets around what they want to produce it only seems logical that we inform the ammo companies about what we want to buy, and that would be something more than the 10mmlight/.40S&W Long loadings available today. Let them know we want real 10mm capabilities and let them work out the details.

and that is the problem right there... they CANT produce a 10mm with full capabilities due to legal reasons. Things like the 1911, OEM chambers, barrel differences, heat and cold issues and end users mean that they are already at the limit of what common sense says they can sell and not get sued into oblivion. the reason you dont see more companies loading to high speeds is that it opens them up to liability.

Companies dont make products just because they WANT to sell them and stay in business for very long... they make what the public demands. If the public demands somthing that is unsafe or unsustainable and wont buy what is offered, the the company will drop the caliber all together.

The problem is that 10mm owners are generally an uneducated myth based bunch when it comes to terminal ballistics, so they really dont know what actually works or what is needed. as a result they make demands based not in fact but in myth, and then get angry when manufacturers cant/wont comply.

the sooner 10mm owners start to insist on factual, science based approach to realistic performance, the sooner they will get what the 10mm really needs.

----

a recent ballistics test showed hornady's current 180 xtp bullet in gel at 1175 fps. it fragmented at that velocity. common sense says that if you push it to 1300 fps it will completely fail. They ALREADY make a product that pushes the existing bullet to it's max, why would they want go further?

Trust me when I tell you (and I've had talks with manufacturers in person about this), whenever they get a letter from a customer asking for more velocity on the 10mm they roll thier eyes and send out a form letter.

Another funny thing that seems to be consistent is that (having been in the industry at one point) it was never the guys buying a couple of cases of ammo who were biching about velocities. it was usually the guy asking what powder was used in the load or what kind of brass it used who walked away with either a box to "try out" or nothing at all. Trust me, those folks have little pull.

So ask yourself... how many cases of underwood ammo have you purchased? How many boxes of hornady's XTP load have you run thru your gun or hunted with? If the answer is not over $500 worth this year, then you are not part of what the industry calls "a meaningful portion of the market"


If we cant come up with a reasonable, marketable, saleable product to demand, it wont get produced. It HAS to be sustainable and attractive for them.

Last edited by Ethereal Killer; 09-16-2012 at 11:58..
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:57   #6
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I agree, it would be nice if someone, anyone, would specifically address the 10mm Auto bullet issue. That is, a large commercial company would make a bullet specifically designed for 10mm Auto. Hornady's XTP line is actually about the best there is already. Ethereal, I thought the 180XTP at 1300 was good to go. What don't I know about XTP's?

We have already tried this campaign a while back to encourage Hornady to make a 135gr. XTP.

I think ctious first suggested, as Ethereal here mentions, a JSP. I think a JSP bullet would be an ideal performance bullet for 10mm velocities. The only issue there might be with the design of the nose. It has to hit the feed ramp and possibly the top of the chamber. When you think about it, there are not many (I can't think of any) lead soft point bullets specifically made for semi-auto handguns, probably because of this issue. But I think a carefully thought out design could make the concept work.

Hornady also has a fairly large line of gas checks, but none for the .401". That would be another suggestion for them.

You can't ignore that fact that when it comes to .400" handgun bullets, the short & weak probably commands in the high 90 percentile of sales. So from a marketing perspective, 10mm is a niche, and until a market share/cost analysis shows there's money to be made beyond the expense of tooling/printing/advertising/etc., and that profit is significant when stacked up against all other opportunities across all other lines of bullets and ammo (all calibers, pistol and rifle), then this just isn't going to happen. That's actually good for guys like Kevin Underwood, who have a market to work with that truly supports him, which is a market the big boys won't take on because there's still not enough interest and sales in 10mm. But I believe the 10mm market is continuing to grow. Sooner or later, it will get noticed by one or more of the big ammo makers.

Not trying to rain on your parade Teecher45, just the reality of being in business. That is what we are up against, but it's not like it can't or won't change. I'll put in the word at Hornady, too. Eventually, they may get the idea that there is a profitable market in 10mm worth exploring here.

Thanks for posting about this.
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:31   #7
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and that is the problem right there... they CANT produce a 10mm with full capabilities due to legal reasons. Things like the 1911, OEM chambers, barrel differences, heat and cold issues and end users mean that they are already at the limit of what common sense says they can sell and not get sued into oblivion. the reason you dont see more companies loading to high speeds is that it opens them up to liability.

Companies dont make products just because they WANT to sell them and stay in business for very long... they make what the public demands. If the public demands somthing that is unsafe or unsustainable and wont buy what is offered, the the company will drop the caliber all together.

The problem is that 10mm owners are generally an uneducated myth based bunch when it comes to terminal ballistics, so they really dont know what actually works or what is needed. as a result they make demands based not in fact but in myth, and then get angry when manufacturers cant/wont comply.

the sooner 10mm owners start to insist on factual, science based approach to realistic performance, the sooner they will get what the 10mm really needs.
I agree with what you are saying about safety of the round, but I think this goes back a long way to something for us handloaders that has really never been scientifically settled. And that issue is, what velocity does a true SAAMI max. avg. pressure get you for a 10mm Auto? And I would say that it would be far higher than what the big ammo makers are currently turning out for their 10mm ammo lines.

That having been said, if the ammo makers produce a load that falls within SAAMI pressure specs with reasonable margin for safety, I think the performance of that load would significantly exceed what is available today. Such a round would certainly require a bullet design, something other than the .40S&W bullets available today, to perform properly at those velocities. Furthermore, if they document their test results showing that their ammo complies with the SAAMI specification (this is a no-brainer), then they have a defense from litigation should someone decide to sue them because they have a crappy gun that can't handle the 10mm round that it was supposedly designed for. Therefore, sue the gun manufacturer who sold you the crappy gun that couldn't handle SAAMI spec pressure 10mm ammo, not the ammo manufacturer who was supplying the SAAMI spec ammo. Imagine if ammo manufacturers would only sell .44mag ammo that limited a 240gr. bullet to 1000fps because some gun manufacturer had sold a thousand revolvers that couldn't handle full SAAMI spec .44mag pressure? That would be nuts. The public would (and should) demand a recall of the defective guns, not a watering down of the ammo below spec to help out some gun maker who made a dangerous mistake.

For all I know, a 180gr at 1300fps could be well over SAAMI pressure with any available powder. I just don't know. But if I believe Mike McNett, who claims to have had some of his loads lab tested, then I do believe it can be done. A large ammo maker should have no problem acquiring the resources to build and test such a load, and even if they only made ONE such loading available to the public, it would still be a boon to 10mm.
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:57   #8
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Originally Posted by Ethereal Killer View Post
and that is the problem right there... they CANT produce a 10mm with full capabilities due to legal reasons. Things like the 1911, OEM chambers, barrel differences, heat and cold issues and end users mean that they are already at the limit of what common sense says they can sell and not get sued into oblivion. the reason you dont see more companies loading to high speeds is that it opens them up to liability.

Companies dont make products just because they WANT to sell them and stay in business for very long... they make what the public demands. If the public demands somthing that is unsafe or unsustainable and wont buy what is offered, the the company will drop the caliber all together.

The problem is that 10mm owners are generally an uneducated myth based bunch when it comes to terminal ballistics, so they really dont know what actually works or what is needed. as a result they make demands based not in fact but in myth, and then get angry when manufacturers cant/wont comply.

the sooner 10mm owners start to insist on factual, science based approach to realistic performance, the sooner they will get what the 10mm really needs.

----

a recent ballistics test showed hornady's current 180 xtp bullet in gel at 1175 fps. it fragmented at that velocity. common sense says that if you push it to 1300 fps it will completely fail. They ALREADY make a product that pushes the existing bullet to it's max, why would they want go further?

Trust me when I tell you (and I've had talks with manufacturers in person about this), whenever they get a letter from a customer asking for more velocity on the 10mm they roll thier eyes and send out a form letter.

Another funny thing that seems to be consistent is that (having been in the industry at one point) it was never the guys buying a couple of cases of ammo who were biching about velocities. it was usually the guy asking what powder was used in the load or what kind of brass it used who walked away with either a box to "try out" or nothing at all. Trust me, those folks have little pull.

So ask yourself... how many cases of underwood ammo have you purchased? How many boxes of hornady's XTP load have you run thru your gun or hunted with? If the answer is not over $500 worth this year, then you are not part of what the industry calls "a meaningful portion of the market"


If we cant come up with a reasonable, marketable, saleable product to demand, it wont get produced. It HAS to be sustainable and attractive for them.


My approach is, I guess, the opposite of what you are talking about. I remember the birth of the "modern" 10mm when Cooper was talking about a 200-220 gn bullet. I am not one that gets all excited about a few FPS, I want more weight. If the pressure limits more closely lived up to I can't help but optimistically hope for more grains rather that mor FPS for it's own sake.

One of my reasons for handloading revolvers and the 10mm is to get loads with a heavier than "standard" or common, bullet
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Old 09-16-2012, 13:17   #9
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So, are you gonna just sit around and *****, or do something about it?
If you want something different (and don't get me wrong, I too think there is a need for a bullet designed for 10mm velocities, not .40) ask. You never know. It just could peak enough interest to someone there who feels like doing something. Want a HCGC'd 10mm bullet (I do, I want a 200 gr. HCGC @ about 1200)? Ask, what is it going to hurt? Jesus Christ, this is the same company that marketed the .308 Marlin Express! Useless (IMO). But it proves someone there has enough latitude (or balls) to produce and market something they like. Maybe one of those people wants to see a better 10mm load, who knows. I can't think of a company that would have better resources to develop a better bullet suited to 10mm velocities.
Someone spoke of there not being enough interest in the 10mm, well I don't know if they even know how much interest there is out here. Why don't we just take a couple of minutes and show them there is interest, and let them make the decision? Call your friends that have, or are interested in, a 10mm and ask them to jump on board with us. It couldn't hurt, let's at least try.
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Old 09-16-2012, 14:06   #10
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I would be interested in seeing the gel tests that show the 180 XTP fragmenting at 1300 fps.

I shoot the 200 grain XTP at 1300 fps from my 6" KKM barrel and they are deadly on pigs. Never had one break up.

If Hornady really thought it would be a problem they could build a "mag" line of XTP bullets for the 10mm like they have for the 454 Casull. That is a hella stout bullet. I shot a whitetail with my Ruger Super Redhawk 7.5" 454 Casull last season and after passing through the deer, it blew through a 4" diameter mesquite tree. I found the slug and it retained 271 of 300 grains.


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Old 09-16-2012, 14:31   #11
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I think we sometimes get so caught up in velocity that we do tend to overdrive what is out there currently, that said I have killed three 200+ pound pigs now with a 200gr XTP at 1100 fps and all the slugs have held together well. 2 of them have passed thru both shoulders including the mythical armor plating. I am really starting to wonder if less velocity provides more penetration, and overdriving the bullet causes more expansion and less penetration. Just a theory I'm wortking on.
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Old 09-16-2012, 14:43   #12
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I think we sometimes get so caught up in velocity that we do tend to overdrive what is out there currently, that said I have killed three 200+ pound pigs now with a 200gr XTP at 1100 fps and all the slugs have held together well. 2 of them have passed thru both shoulders including the mythical armor plating. I am really starting to wonder if less velocity provides more penetration, and overdriving the bullet causes more expansion and less penetration. Just a theory I'm wortking on.

I could very easily go along with that theory. Keith thought so. Much depends on the construction of the bullet of course, but I think we work too hard on making bullets that perform "just so" under perfect, and specific conditions, and they sell well to people who expect those conditions.

I think too many "bullet failures" come from faulty expectations. I use a heavy simple LSWC, usually heavier than most factory bullets at around 1,200 fps, regardess of caliber, and for the most part they penetrate like I expect. Nothing fancy.
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Old 09-16-2012, 14:53   #13
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I would be interested in seeing the gel tests that show the 180 XTP fragmenting at 1300 fps.
I'll do you one better.. heres a gel shot with it fragmenting at 1155 fps

logic dictates if we push it to 1300 and beyond we are gonna start seeing jacket separation and more frag.

Granted it's not a significant amount of frag but it does show us that the bullet has reached it's max performance envelope at 1155.

The XTP is a great bullet and probably one of the best we have for the 10mm right now. I feel it needs a little tweaking for the 10mm or better still give us a critical defense bullet like the FTX designed and bonded for the 10mm. we dont even need them to load it, we just need a bullet they will sell a lot of! the other manufacturers will do the rest

Bonded is really the key for performance and penetration that the 10mm has to offer. A tough bonded 135gr FTX would be hella fun to play with. I really like the 10mm in the 200gr loadings too.

All I'm saying is that if we are gonna ask for something, lets be able to justify it to them and make it attractive to them as a step forward. Whatever we ask of them it should meet the following criteria:

-in demand
-legally attractive to them
-increase the performance of the round
-not already on the market
-has not already been done
-relatively simple for them to do with minimal tweaking to current offerings with existing technology

If it meets these criteria AND we provide reasons to them why and how they can do this and make money, then it's almost a sure thing.

SO... if you send of a letter to hornady, it should contain as many if not all of the above list with and explanations how they can do it. Tell them HOW this can benefit them with as little work as possible and without increasing risk. Thats the KEY.

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Old 09-16-2012, 14:57   #14
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heres a sample letter format (I've taken some literary license here but you can get the idea)...

Dearest Hornady man,

By way of introducing myself I'd like to tell you how awesome I am and why you should listen to me. I'm awesome because I post on the internet all the time and I have a really high post count. Further i even own and buy stuff all the time, like seriously. From time to time I sit down for coffee with people who know what they are talking about and their awesomeness rubs off on me or is absorbed through osmosis. further I have a degree in awesomeness from a respected online university and work in a large factory with lots of lead dust and chemical vapors around so I know about bullets!!

I think a 10mm bullet would be a good idea because maker x sold 15,000 cases of it last year and the northwest and alaska markets are going crazy with new 10mm buyers. a bonded bullet made for 10mm velocities would be a good idea because it could survive more glass penetration tests and cover penetration as well as meet hunters demands for murdering grizzlies and elephants with a handgun at long range.

Specifically we would like to see the 180grain XTP, bonded with a flex tip and toughened to allow it to handle velocities of 1300+fps for use in glock pistols with aftermarket barrels and compensators and heavy weight springs and carbines. We would also like them to be coated in bright purple teflon and make a sound something like a mad moslem jihadi makes when he explodes from being hit with a 25mm round.

By tweaking the 180gr to make it more like the 44 mag XTP offering it would require minimal research and development, and adding bonding or an FTX tip would essentially just tweak the existing critical defense offerings, making for the first time a bonded performance hunting/self defense bullet specifically for the 10mm. While Speer offers the gold dot, it does not perform at the upper range of the 10mm.

As you may know 10mm enthusiasts are just that... ethusiastic about the 10mm. while loading actual rounds to meet velocity demands may be legally problematic due to platform and gear differences, providing the secondary and reloading market with a top notch bullet is not.

As a side note I'd like to state for the record that Hornady is quite possibly the most bestest bullet and ammo maker in the industry and we all love you with all our hearts. please please please do us a favor and make this awesome bullet.

thank you for being my friend,
Ethereal Killer Esq.
Generally awesome dude

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Old 09-16-2012, 15:52   #15
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I agree with a few posts back. An xtp mag 10 mm bullet. Or a jsp. That alone would make me happy.
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Old 09-16-2012, 16:06   #16
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I actually ask Hornady to consider the 10mm in there Zombie Max lineup before they released it inatially! They didn't have anything to say!

Therefore I made my own Zombie Ammo...
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Old 09-16-2012, 21:49   #17
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Ethereal, I was with you until that last rambling crap. That's BS.
If you want a better bullet, try to do something about it, don't just hijack other people's threads to start crap. This forum is usually very positive and people here try to help other people. If your looking to just start an argument, go out and buy a $600ish AR and then go to the Black Rifle Forum and tell them it's as good as a Colt/Noveske/BCM. Maybe that will keep you busy for awhile.
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Old 09-17-2012, 17:11   #18
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Ethereal, I was with you until that last rambling crap. That's BS.
If you want a better bullet, try to do something about it, don't just hijack other people's threads to start crap. This forum is usually very positive and people here try to help other people. If your looking to just start an argument, go out and buy a $600ish AR and then go to the Black Rifle Forum and tell them it's as good as a Colt/Noveske/BCM. Maybe that will keep you busy for awhile.


It's called comedy broseph... look it up.

it also provides and example of how a decent persuasive letter is written and what elements should be included (look that up too).

the point was to give a simple format and let guys fill in the "blanks" with good information from their experiences. it was also intended to make guys laugh at themselves and maybe actually follow up on this campaign, but I guess you missed that too.

point here is to be united and be specific and be credible
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Old 09-17-2012, 17:44   #19
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Hmmm, I disagree. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, let's see if it works or if you killed it by writing a letter that seems more like you were making fun of those of us that are trying to do something positive.
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Old 09-18-2012, 23:09   #20
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I dint actually send that letter. did you seriously think I did?
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