Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-15-2012, 21:28   #21
nraman
Senior Member
 
nraman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by diode View Post
I agree, Glock has changed the chamber to the point that a reliable feed and good safety appear to be accomplished in my later Gen g23. Any more support would be a revolver cylinder. jb
The new Glocks have all the support they need.
The unsupported part is solid brass, not case wall. The bottom of the case is solid. Solid brass is safe until you exceed rifle pressures.
I got rid of my earlier .40s and a 10mm for their lack of support. I like my Gen 4 G22s and G27. In addition to the excellent support, the Gen4 G22 has better feeling recoil thanks to the new spring.
__________________
Μολών λαβέ
nraman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 21:37   #22
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post
I have never had a barrel, in a 1911 that required a chamber that much oversize, to function. Why does Glock?
That was not my pic. That pic was one of those hot "fully supported barrel only" 10mm loads shot out of an older 10mm barrel if memory serves me right.

Even the 1911 guys run into support issues trying to make major with .38super. The ramped 1911 barrel is about as close as I have seen to full support.
http://38super.net/Pages/Major.html
http://38super.net/Pages/supported.html

It is not that the older Glock barrels were oversized. They just were generous in the amount of chamfer at and around the top of the feed ramp to help ensure reliable feeding. Some guns have worse support than even the older Glocks.

Last edited by dkf; 12-15-2012 at 21:53..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 21:40   #23
SargeMO
Senior Member
 
SargeMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanderson View Post
Here's one of several pics I found comparing .40 cal barrels. Older (1998) would appear to be less supported:
General Glocking
LOL... I thought I was going to have to find that photo and re-post, but you beat me to it. Here's the money quote and a link to the whole article.

Quote:
I have long contended that Glock, who will never admit there was a chamber-support problem in the first place, made subtle changes to mitigate this problem. You take a look and decide for yourself.



__________________
Sarge

PS- if you're being a retard, don't expect a reply.
SargeMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 22:06   #24
tonyparson
Senior Member
 
tonyparson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dayton, TN.
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeMO View Post
LOL... I thought I was going to have to find that photo and re-post, but you beat me to it. Here's the money quote and a link to the whole article.
Thay had to add more chamber support because people couldn't follow what Glock says about not shooting reloads through them. I have a 1995 G24 and I don't worry at all about the chamber support because I won't shoot reloads through it. All kbooms are ammo related. When people have a kboom with reloads they always blame the gun not there reloaded ammo.
__________________
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.......
Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by tonyparson; 12-15-2012 at 22:09..
tonyparson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 22:17   #25
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
You can have kabooms with factory ammo too. I have read old articles that blamed bullet setback as a main cause for many .40 kabooms. I would wager that there has been hundreds of millions of rounds of reloaded .40 through those older barrels.

Last edited by dkf; 12-15-2012 at 22:19..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 22:46   #26
SARDG
Senior Member
 
SARDG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Florida's Left Coast
Posts: 7,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyparson View Post
Thay had to add more chamber support because people couldn't follow what Glock says about not shooting reloads through them...
Glock doesn't say to NOT shoot reloads; to paraphrase, the Glock warranty says that you should only shoot ammunition specified by NATO or SAAMI. I reload to SAAMI specs.
SARDG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2012, 23:24   #27
tonyparson
Senior Member
 
tonyparson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dayton, TN.
Posts: 5,267
Directly from the Glock instruction/warranty manual:
Page 15 section 26 (in red)
The use of reloaded ammuntion will void the Glock warranty, due to the unpredictability of the standards (sami/nato) adhered to , since reloads of poor quality ammunition may not meet specs, may exceed safe limits, and therefore may be unsafe.
__________________
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.......
Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by tonyparson; 12-15-2012 at 23:25..
tonyparson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 01:36   #28
SARDG
Senior Member
 
SARDG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Florida's Left Coast
Posts: 7,646
Direct from Glock Warranty (mail-in post) Card enclosed with firearm and dated 03/2011:

Manufacturer's Limited Warranty

(in part) ...
The provisions of this warranty shall not apply to any firearm which has been subject to misuse, negligence, alteration, use of non-authorized spare parts, use of ammo other than SAAMI or NATO specs, improper maintenance, or removal, alteration or defacing of the serial numbers.....

Seems to be a contradiction in warranty statements with documents both enclosed with the firearm, but the Warranty Card (with Glock, Inc's warranty terms) is quoted above.
SARDG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 10:44   #29
SargeMO
Senior Member
 
SargeMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
You can have kabooms with factory ammo too. I have read old articles that blamed bullet setback as a main cause for many .40 kabooms. I would wager that there has been hundreds of millions of rounds of reloaded .40 through those older barrels.
Having been involved with LE firearms training since 1991, The Glock "KABOOM" thing is real. We have seen NCIC teletypes describing this phenomenon after they started chambering them in anything bigger than 9mm. A good many of these were with new, factory ammo. With very rare exceptions, LE agencies do not buy reloads to qualify with.

A good friend of mine blew his brand, spanking new 10mm Glock on the first round, with a reload that had been fed to Colt Deltas by the thousands. Two other .40's I know of, have done the same thing with factory .40 HP or ball that ran fine through S&W 4006s before the change.

Yes, the number of documented KaBooms have dwindled over the years. Yes, Glock has increased their chamber support over the years; but reloaded ammo was most assuredly NOT the cause for KaBooms in documented, LE agency incidents.
__________________
Sarge

PS- if you're being a retard, don't expect a reply.

Last edited by SargeMO; 12-16-2012 at 10:46..
SargeMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 11:11   #30
nraman
Senior Member
 
nraman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
Direct from Glock Warranty (mail-in post) Card enclosed with firearm and dated 03/2011:

Manufacturer's Limited Warranty

(in part) ...
The provisions of this warranty shall not apply to any firearm which has been subject to misuse, negligence, alteration, use of non-authorized spare parts, use of ammo other than SAAMI or NATO specs, improper maintenance, or removal, alteration or defacing of the serial numbers.....

Seems to be a contradiction in warranty statements with documents both enclosed with the firearm, but the Warranty Card (with Glock, Inc's warranty terms) is quoted above.
It also fails to include European spec ammo.
__________________
Μολών λαβέ
nraman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 14:19   #31
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeMO View Post
Having been involved with LE firearms training since 1991, The Glock "KABOOM" thing is real. We have seen NCIC teletypes describing this phenomenon after they started chambering them in anything bigger than 9mm. A good many of these were with new, factory ammo. With very rare exceptions, LE agencies do not buy reloads to qualify with.

A good friend of mine blew his brand, spanking new 10mm Glock on the first round, with a reload that had been fed to Colt Deltas by the thousands. Two other .40's I know of, have done the same thing with factory .40 HP or ball that ran fine through S&W 4006s before the change.

Yes, the number of documented KaBooms have dwindled over the years. Yes, Glock has increased their chamber support over the years; but reloaded ammo was most assuredly NOT the cause for KaBooms in documented, LE agency incidents.
All anecdotal evidence because you have no way of knowing if anything was wrong with the round that caused the failure.(brass flaw, double charge and etc) Not to mention just because a load will run in one gun without issue does not mean it will run in another gun which is primarily true when you loaded up near the max and especially with used brass. People are quick to point fingers when in reality they don't know or often cannot comprehend the true reason the event happened.

Last edited by dkf; 12-16-2012 at 14:28..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 15:09   #32
SargeMO
Senior Member
 
SargeMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 423
Right, dkf. I'm sure all those agencies were sending out NCIC bulletins--which incidentally, specified the precise ammo used--because they were anti-Glock. Never mind the that fact that the period I'm talking about is when various Beretta and S&W autos were seeing wide use- and they weren't blowing up.

Try not to drown in your swimming pool of KoolAid.
__________________
Sarge

PS- if you're being a retard, don't expect a reply.
SargeMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 15:27   #33
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeMO View Post
Right, dkf. I'm sure all those agencies were sending out NCIC bulletins--which incidentally, specified the precise ammo used--because they were anti-Glock. Never mind the that fact that the period I'm talking about is when various Beretta and S&W autos were seeing wide use- and they weren't blowing up.

Try not to drown in your swimming pool of KoolAid.
I only own two Glocks and own more other brand handguns than Glocks by far so you can take your Koolaid comment and stick it up your rear. Typical reply for someone who lacks any real knowledge so relys on attacks to take the light of them.

Lets see a pdf or jpeg of the bulletin and the list of "precise ammo" used please.

If memory serves me correct the reason for those bulletins was because of some .40 Glocks that were firing out of battery. Which has little to do with chamber support.

Last edited by dkf; 12-16-2012 at 15:29..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 17:39   #34
SargeMO
Senior Member
 
SargeMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
I only own two Glocks and own more other brand handguns than Glocks by far so you can take your Koolaid comment and stick it up your rear. Typical reply for someone who lacks any real knowledge so relys on attacks to take the light of them.

Lets see a pdf or jpeg of the bulletin and the list of "precise ammo" used please.

If memory serves me correct the reason for those bulletins was because of some .40 Glocks that were firing out of battery. Which has little to do with chamber support.
If you had any exposure to the bulletins at all, you would know that-

1. Each one was incident specific and there were dozens of them. "The bulletin" with its "list of precise ammo used" exists only in your mind.

2. NCIC bulletins are (generally) not for public dissemination, although certain information contained within them may be available via FOIA.

3. I was and am privileged to the bulletins by virtue of employment. I am not the custodian of these records.

4. Submit your FOIA request to:

National Crime Information Center
1000 Custer Hollow Road
Clarksburg, West Virginia 26306
Telephone: (304) 625-2000

... and let us know how that works out for you.
__________________
Sarge

PS- if you're being a retard, don't expect a reply.
SargeMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 18:47   #35
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeMO View Post
If you had any exposure to the bulletins at all, you would know that-

1. Each one was incident specific and there were dozens of them. "The bulletin" with its "list of precise ammo used" exists only in your mind.

2. NCIC bulletins are (generally) not for public dissemination, although certain information contained within them may be available via FOIA.

3. I was and am privileged to the bulletins by virtue of employment. I am not the custodian of these records.

4. Submit your FOIA request to:

National Crime Information Center
1000 Custer Hollow Road
Clarksburg, West Virginia 26306
Telephone: (304) 625-2000

... and let us know how that works out for you.
You are the one that stated "precise ammo used" not I.

And as for the Bulletin, how convientent for you. An excuse for having nothing to back up your spewed garble. With such a huge Glock issue (as you make it out to be) there should be some info and maybe even a bulletin floating around. You told me exactly what I need to know and don't even know it.

Last edited by dkf; 12-16-2012 at 18:58..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 20:06   #36
AustinTx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tx
Posts: 8,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeMO View Post
Having been involved with LE firearms training since 1991, The Glock "KABOOM" thing is real.


Yes, the number of documented KaBooms have dwindled over the years. Yes, Glock has increased their chamber support over the years; but reloaded ammo was most assuredly NOT the cause for KaBooms in documented, LE agency incidents.
That's exactly the way it is, take it or leave it. I don't really care. Lack of chamber support, in some Glock pistols has caused high pressure release of gas at the 6 O'clock position of the cartridge case. IOW, it blows a hole in the case and causes a great surprise, to the shooter. The unsupported case can be seen, just by dropping a loaded round, in the chamber and compare the amount of brass hanging out at the bottom of the chamber.

I have shot Remington factory loaded 45 ACP, in a Colt 1911 that I only shot 1 out of in a Glock. The case bulged so bad, it wouldn't even go into a resizing die. The lack of case support isn't a new subject, on GT. A little searching will prove that.

The subject of KoolAid doesn't need to be mentioned.
AustinTx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 20:48   #37
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
I have shot Remington factory loaded 45 ACP, in a Colt 1911 that I only shot 1 out of in a Glock. The case bulged so bad, it wouldn't even go into a resizing die. The lack of case support isn't a new subject, on GT. A little searching will prove that.
What model and vintage Glock were you using?

The .45acp is not a high pressure round and is known to have long brass life even in Glock barrels. It is possible for some reason the gun was not going into battery or other issue also. That is what I have been trying to say just because there is a failure of the case near the relief at the feed ramp does not necessarily mean it is a support issue however I am not saying in some cases it cannot be.
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 10:52   #38
nraman
Senior Member
 
nraman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post

I have shot Remington factory loaded 45 ACP, in a Colt 1911 that I only shot 1 out of in a Glock. The case bulged so bad, it wouldn't even go into a resizing die. The lack of case support isn't a new subject, on GT. A little searching will prove that.

The subject of KoolAid doesn't need to be mentioned.
The problem I see is that people make general statements that don't apply to everything.
Do Glocks bad case support? Yes and no.
The 9mm always had great support and tight chamber, the new .40 and the 357 are great.
The 10mm not so good, the 45 shoots on a wing and a prayer.
I got rid of both my G20 and a couple of G21s for that reason.
__________________
Μολών λαβέ
nraman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 17:02   #39
AustinTx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tx
Posts: 8,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
If you get something that looks like the pic below you do not want to shoot any more.
General Glocking
A gun that produces fired cases that look like that, is a defective gun. Except Glock, by definition, I guess. If my cases looked like that, the Glock barrel would be changed to a KKM or equal. Actually, they did look like that, or worse. I was surprised it didn't blow out. New cases are wonderful.

There never has been a problem with Glocks in 9mm, as for the chamber support. I reckon they depend on the tapered case to feed properly. Awhile back, Glock sold some pistols, in the US that were proof marked, in Austria. I did a quick search, of GT and I didn't find any guns, other than 9mm that had Austrian proof. The only models, that I found, were G17 & 19. IMO, I don't think a 40 S&W, 10 mm or 45 ACP Glock will pass an Austrian proof. I would like to hear, if anyone has one.

The G21 that I got bulged cases from, was new in 1999, gen 3. No out of battery or defective ammo. The Glock chamber is just too big. I don't have the means to measure it, but I would bet, it won't pass the SAAMI spec. for chamber dimensions. I doubt that Glock ever ran a proof round through that pistol. I let my Son have it, with full cautions. I have plenty of other 45 ACP pistols to waste any money on an aftermarket barrel. I wasn't going to throw anymore good money after bad. Remington 45 ACP, from that same box fired, in a Colt 1911 with absolutely no noticeable expansion, at the base.

The 357 SIG seem to be alright. That's my favorite, anyway. The bottleneck case seems to take care of any feeding problem.

The 40 S&W seems to be a total crap shoot. I have seen pictures here that look like they have pretty much 100% case support and others with way too much brass case hanging out. I'm gonna be looking for an Austrian proofed Glock in 40 S&W or 10 mm. I'm beginning to wonder about the 45 ACP, the low pressure round, it is, also.

None of my Glocks are going to be high volume shooters, at least not by me, so I don't worry much about them.

I think that plastic is an improper choice of material to build a pistol with, except in 9mm. A 40 S&W, with something clamped on the rail will work, if the phase of the moon, or you hold your mouth just right. I do have several 40s and seem to have lucked out, with them. I won't tempt fate, by clamping a light on, though.

Believe it or not, that's just my opinion and I don't care to discuss this subject further here. Anyone that cares to, can prove it wrong.
AustinTx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2012, 17:26   #40
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
A gun that produces fired cases that look like that, is a defective gun. Except Glock, by definition, I guess. If my cases looked like that, the Glock barrel would be changed to a KKM or equal. Actually, they did look like that, or worse. I was surprised it didn't blow out. New cases are wonderful.
Sounds you are not familer with the loads that produced the brass in the picture. Those were at or above max pressures and we do not know if there was any setback, overcharged or anything. I take it you are also not seasoned reloader with a knowledge of load development if so you would better understand what is going on there. It is why you develop loads to the barrel/gun and why the ammo manufacturer of the case in the picture recommended the better supported aftermarket barrel, the loads were developed for that barrel.

Quote:
The G21 that I got bulged cases from, was new in 1999, gen 3. No out of battery or defective ammo. The Glock chamber is just too big. I don't have the means to measure it, but I would bet, it won't pass the SAAMI spec. for chamber dimensions. I doubt that Glock ever ran a proof round through that pistol. I let my Son have it, with full cautions. I have plenty of other 45 ACP pistols to waste any money on an aftermarket barrel. I wasn't going to throw anymore good money after bad. Remington 45 ACP, from that same box fired, in a Colt 1911 with absolutely no noticeable expansion, at the base.
You cannot really get an idea what is going on by firing only one round however I understand why you did not go any further. I hope you at least sent that Glock off to Glock to be looked at. If I spent money on a gun that I suspected was not functioning properly I would send it back to the company. If their is a problem with the weapon I would hate to give it to a loved one and have them get hurt. Let the manufacturer spend the money to test it and make sure everything is up to spec, no reason for you to.

Every Glock barrel I have ever measured was right in the middle of the SAAMI specified size range. All were later barrels however. That said I find it hard to believe Glock or any other company would open themselves up to major liability and knowlingly make a barrel with a chamber outside of SAAMI specs. Of course that does not mean that defects do not get by. Glock was just generous with the relief at the feed ramp and around the end of the chamber.

As for polymer framed pistols it has been pretty well proven a good pistol can be made with it. Lots of other companies besides Glock make some very good plastic framed firearms.

I am sorry you had an issue with your Glock. No hard feelings due to this thread I hope. I was just interested in some of the specifics.

Last edited by dkf; 12-18-2012 at 17:28..
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:14.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,247
321 Members
926 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31