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Old 10-02-2012, 08:50   #26
Mayhem like Me
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Why would you pay money and go to a course to learn things and want to do it all your way? That's retarded.

Go to a course to learn what THEY teach. If it makes sense go home and use it. If it doesn't then at least you know why you don't like it.
Agree.
I just took a class where we ran a 36 yard zero from the first day.
It worked fine and i'm trying it on my work carbine.

Hold over is a bit less at 15yards and in for head shots hairline is dead on in the eye box.


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Old 10-02-2012, 09:01   #27
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Great review and good price on that course!
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:04   #28
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Go to a course to learn what THEY teach. If it makes sense go home and use it. If it doesn't then at least you know why you don't like it.
This is the best attitude to use when going to any class. If you think the instructors methods are crap, then don't go. However, there are very few people in the world who could be qualified to call that on Larry Vickers.

Learn it. Practice it. If it works, keep it. If it doesn't work, stow it away in case you may one day need it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:05   #29
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Go to a course to learn what THEY teach. If it makes sense go home and use it. If it doesn't then at least you know why you don't like it.
Relax yourself.

I think you answered my question in that they are both requirements.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:24   #30
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Relax yourself.

I think you answered my question in that they are both requirements.
Not requirements but they have their reasons for teaching those techniques. Why would you pay someone to teach you something and then ignore their approach and do it your own way.

When I went to Gunsite and took the pistol course over 20 years ago there were a couple of guys in our course that were big time IPSC shooters--real gamers. Had some attitude and thought they were going to show us all how it was done. For the first few days they really resisted the instruction and insisted on doing things their way and by the third day they began to realize there was a method to the progressive nature of the training and what it was intended to produce at the end of the week. The instructors were clearly frustrated with those students. They found themselves struggling to catch up with the folks who were doing it by the numbers and by the time we got to the Fun House and Donga live fire drills they underperformed relative to the est of the class.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:35   #31
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Agree.
I just took a class where we ran a 36 yard zero from the first day.
It worked fine and i'm trying it on my work carbine.

Hold over is a bit less at 15yards and in for head shots hairline is dead on in the eye box.


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Interesting. If you take the 3 day course from Larry Vicker's himself he will set you up with a 100 yard zero. Least that's what our instructor told us. But every zero method has its drawbacks.

In the Army we all zeroed our guns at 25 yards. And that worked fine for a rifle length barrel shooting 55 grain bullets at 3100 fps. (and actually it wasn't a dead on zero at 25 it was like 1.5" low) But with a carbine with a realistic self defense max range of 200 yards that poses issues with holdover at 100 yards. In the Army we were shooting out to 375 meters or so. You just aren't going to do that in any realistic self defense scenario.

In our course the standard at 50 yards was to be able to make 9 out of 10 "head shots" offhand. Only two guys in the course could do that consistently. I dropped 2 shots almost every drill. Most were not that consistent.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:53   #32
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Not requirements but they have their reasons for teaching those techniques. Why would you pay someone to teach you something and then ignore their approach and do it your own way.
Again, calm yourself, I was just asking. I've never taken a VSM class, but I've also never taken a class where they enforced a specific zero across the board. I wasn't sure if this was part of the "method."

OK... so not a requirement then.

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When I went to Gunsite and took the pistol course over 20 years ago...
Cool story, bro.
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Old 10-02-2012, 15:23   #33
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I've always said that you don't need a muzzle brake/compensator to shoot fast and accurate for a 5.56 long gun and others have always disputed me.

Thanks for the affirmation.

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Nope the one guy was running an A2 flash hider...

The equipment wasn't the difference. If I could have bought my way to proficiency with a carbine I'd have been champ of the world a long time ago...

13 shooters in the class and we only had one guy with a muzzle brake and we all hated him. (too loud and obnoxious--the gun not the shooter)

Quickness is a 98% a function of technique.
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Old 10-02-2012, 15:28   #34
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Not requirements but they have their reasons for teaching those techniques. Why would you pay someone to teach you something and then ignore their approach and do it your own way.
I beg to differ. Unless you're a cherry and don't know squat from diddly, you should take everything at face value. I've never taken Vicker's class but I've taken enough classes to see the preferences in techniques from many a well qualified instructors. They all think they're "right". However, I'd prefer to distill what I've learned across the board and pick out the best practices for my own application instead of swallowing the Kool-Aid from one school or another.

Quote:
When I went to Gunsite and took the pistol course over 20 years ago there were a couple of guys in our course that were big time IPSC shooters--real gamers. Had some attitude and thought they were going to show us all how it was done. For the first few days they really resisted the instruction and insisted on doing things their way and by the third day they began to realize there was a method to the progressive nature of the training and what it was intended to produce at the end of the week. The instructors were clearly frustrated with those students. They found themselves struggling to catch up with the folks who were doing it by the numbers and by the time we got to the Fun House and Donga live fire drills they underperformed relative to the est of the class.
That's because these people were trained as gamers then tried to apply the technique to fighting/self-defense which was and is the essence of Gunsite classes.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:34   #35
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I've always said that you don't need a muzzle brake/compensator to shoot fast and accurate for a 5.56 long gun and others have always disputed me.

Thanks for the affirmation.
The fastest shooter of the group by a mile had a Surefire 215A flash hider.

I'm far from an expert with a carbine but Ray Charles can see you don't need a brake to drive a carbine fast. Its not a hard friggin caliber to control. Now stick two guys with some serious skills side by side you might find a brakes gives you a few hundreths of a second advantage. But for us mere mortals I see no practical difference.

But again...I could be wrong about that.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:37   #36
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I beg to differ. Unless you're a cherry and don't know squat from diddly, you should take everything at face value. I've never taken Vicker's class but I've taken enough classes to see the preferences in techniques from many a well qualified instructors. They all think they're "right". However, I'd prefer to distill what I've learned across the board and pick out the best practices for my own application instead of swallowing the Kool-Aid from one school or another.

That's because these people were trained as gamers then tried to apply the technique to fighting/self-defense which was and is the essence of Gunsite classes.
Maybe--maybe not. Personally, I think you owe it to your instructor to try what he's teaching. I didn't say you had to live with it the rest of your life. But give it a shot.

You are spot on about the gamer vs. Gunsite mentality though.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:34   #37
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If you use an EOtech optic and zero at 25 then the lower bound of the reticule is your 7 yard POI.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:53   #38
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- In the M4/M16/AR with iron sights or modern optics, no matter the zero distance, from contact distance out to roughly 7-10 yards your height over bore is ~2.5" no matter what. Anyone who does not understand this, truly does not understand this platform. This is not shooter dependent either. It is a pure geometry issue with the line of sight and angle of departure of the projectile in relation to the height over bore of the irons or optic. So from contact distance to roughly 10 yards aiming at the middle of the forehead is where you need to be no matter what.

- Vickers Shooting Method instructors are generally good to go. They are not Larry Vickers but teach his shooting ideals. This does not mean that individual VSM instructors will not have their own unique style.

- BUIS should be up or fixed IMO. With enough correct training they are not an issue, but a complete positive in the need arises. Yes I know all of the arguments, but this is still my experience / opinion.

- 50y BZO or 100y zero are the 2 best IMO and the traditional 25m/300m zero is a bit too old school and most former high speed .mil guys will also say the same. Now here is where it gets interesting. Even with a 50 or 100, some will change their POA/POI which is shooter preference whether they go for a true POA/ POI of want to lolipop. No matter what if you are impacting about 1.5" low at 25M your outer zero is more correct load dependent. 1.5" low at 25 would get you more of a 50 meter true zero.

- Muzzle devices and the A2 is a very good standard. Those who think a break or a compensator on this platform is not an advantage in control and speed and I will 100% tell you that they are either #1 in the top 99.9% of shooters or that #2 they are not skilled enough to run this platform at the ragged edge of performance to understand the benefit. I will say 100% without a doubt that other factors such as blast, concussion, disturbance and flash signature are factors for certain users.

- There is almost no 100% across the board and what works for the majority will not necessarily work for everyone.

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Old 10-03-2012, 11:22   #39
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Quote:
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Maybe--maybe not. Personally, I think you owe it to your instructor to try what he's teaching. I didn't say you had to live with it the rest of your life. But give it a shot.
Of course. I'd definitely give it a whirl to see if there's a merit.

What people don't understand or refuse to acknowledge is that we are not all built the same. My canting my elbow this way a bit may improve my gun handling and control, but it doesn't mean that you have the same degree of flexibility, or the technique even work for you.

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You are spot on about the gamer vs. Gunsite mentality though.
This is why I advocate getting specific trainings. Want to compete or shoot competition style? Go to a school that teaches you competition shooting.

Want to learn how to fight? Go to a school that teaches you how to fight.

As far as I'm concerned, the 'twains are so different that I don't even bother trying to mix'em up.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:24   #40
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Well said surf. Can't say I disagree with anything you just said.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:07   #41
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Surf, good as always and backed up by experience.

I have been hearing a lot of people talking about fixed or BUIS in the upright position while shooting. Even the instructor at the carbine class I took 2 weeks ago supported this method. I have been trying to hold out for some time but will be shooting this way at this weekends class. W/ all these high level shooters doing it and the experience relayed in support of this method I would be stupid not to try it out.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:30   #42
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I currently use a fixed rear, and don't mind it, but I prefer a folding rear, folded.

At the ranges it would be an issue the Aimpoint can be used as a rear sight. In the very low odds of it going down that is. If I don't have time for that, odds are, i'm either going to pistol or may be totally screwed anyways.

Still prefer the scope be clear, even in a lower third, but in the end, it's personal preference.
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Old 10-03-2012, 18:12   #43
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Went back and got one of the targets we used in class last weekend.

The head measures 6" High and 6.5" wide with the 1" black square in the middle. So as I recall I was holding at the top of the head which means 3" high. And I was consistently hitting the black square.

The black "bull" in the middle of the target measured 5.5 inches in diameter meaning I was holding at the top of the black and making COM shots or about 2.75" high.

Huh...I thought that bull looked about 6" across.

In any case "holding" isn't exactly what I'd call keeping the dot moving in a circle in about that location when you are doing timed cadence drills...
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Old 10-03-2012, 22:56   #44
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This is why I advocate getting specific trainings. Want to compete or shoot competition style? Go to a school that teaches you competition shooting.

Want to learn how to fight? Go to a school that teaches you how to fight.

As far as I'm concerned, the 'twains are so different that I don't even bother trying to mix'em up.
This is a big mistake IMO and most modern trainers, or generally the top notch guys, understand the advantages that can be gleaned from the shooting sports world or competition shooters. Trying to keep them completely separate and not not intermixing styles or techniques is IMO a big mistake.

Being open minded about techniques that actually works for whatever style, even in combat shooting is what keeps us progressing. Too many people want to poo poo things because it was a "competition thing". This is plain ignorance. Now I am not saying to adapt something "just because" it may be the flavor of the month, but if it is trained, practiced and vetted as an improvement, it does not matter who came up with it.

I also have no problem with people who use weapons for critical use or defensive purposes to also intermix in the shooting sports world. Having said that, I do not shoot competition, but my style is definitely a fusion of techniques that directly find their roots in the competition world. I do not teach competition shooting. I am still working actively on full time teams but I do I teach almost full time which is primarily in the advanced tactical or combat shooting realm. I have no civilian students and all of my students are Federal, State, Local LE or Military. I teach my style which is a fusion of varying styles, competition included.

This is a reward type of drill, where students run to the ragged edge of their own performance envelope and to the point of failure. It shows them their own limits and capabilities, but it is definitely a fun competitive thing with other students. The blend of combat shooting and competition techniques are clearly visible. The efficacy of a combat shooter trained in this manner is devastating.

Again this is one of my students that is currently in our training program.

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Old 10-04-2012, 06:42   #45
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There's no doubt that competition--when kept in context--can significantly enhance your ability to do the real deal when you need to. Competition teaches the ability to focus and perform under pressure--sometimes intense pressure. You learn a lot about yourself and your teammates through competition that I feel has direct bearing on how you perform under real combat.

Least in my experience it did.

Trust me...you want the guys with the drive to win on your side when the real thing goes down. Mindset, and the proven ability to focus and perform under pressure will beat the best trained quitters in the world every day. I believe that with all my heart.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:56   #46
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I love the brake on my POF. Does it give me ultimate control? Of course not. But it does help. After switching to an ACOG I no longer use BUIS due to the magnification, which my tired eyes really love. I may throw a BUIS on some offset mounts just to have it, but haven't decided yet.

Thanks for taking the time to write the AAR. I've been through a few schools and it's always great to learn new things. One thing I've learned over the years is that you might now use or agree with everything you learn, but if you come away with one new tool then it's money well spent.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:48   #47
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Good review. I took that same course last March and learned a lot. I need to sign up for a few more this year.

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Old 10-07-2012, 17:45   #48
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Good review. I took that same course last March and learned a lot. I need to sign up for a few more this year.

Did you win the dollar game?
No, I hit the top of the circle around George Washington's face.

But I shot it standing up on my hind legs like a man...not crawling on my belly like a snake...
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