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Old 10-10-2012, 16:10   #301
countrygun
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Privilege or not ... is irrelevant. People WILL get healthcare whether they want it or not. Are you, an uninsured person, going to object to treatment when unconscious and in a coma from your stroke? Even if you were conscious, they wouldn't listen to you. It is entirely disconnected from their ability to pay or whether they are insured or not. It has always been that way (in modern U.S. / West) and WILL always be that way ... regardless of Obamacare existing or not. YOU CANNOT DISPUTE THIS

With that said, these costs WILL be incurred by healthcare providers and they WILL be passed on to ME. The ONLY pragmatic approach is ... How do we mitigate this?



You can't collect money where money doesn't exist. Doesn't matter how you feel or wish. Pragmatism vs ideology.

So ...there are two types of people that are uninsured:
1) The person that has the money to pay for it, but chooses not to
or
2) The person that does not have the money to pay for it (and obviously doesn't).

In both cases, they WILL both incur medical costs at some point. You can sue someone for 500,000 of healthcare costs, but it won't ever be collected. The person in scenario 2 is a no win for us. They can't afford insurance and will incur costs, they mostly will be too poor to be penalized by Obamacare. They are a wash regardless (always have been) However, even the average person in scenario 1 above, doesn't have the ability to pay a 500,000 hospital bill. What is the average net worth of middle class American? Even if sued, bankruptcy laws protect primary assets like homes. Therefore, the costs will be passed on to ME (again). How to mitigate this .... the mandate. Those that make bad decision to not insure themselves EVEN though they can, have to pay a tax penalty to mitigate costs. That keeps person in scenario 1 from infringing on my (and society at large) rights.



Healthcare is not like any other product or service ... no matter how much you want it to be or say it. I've outlined this logic in both my responses to you at this point. It is not complicated. EVERYBODY WILL GET MEDICAL CARE. Accept it ... and lets move on and get a plan to mitigate the costs.



YOU WERE PAYING FOR IT ANYWAY ... BEFORE OBAMACARE! Don't you get it? The only difference is ... without Obamacare, there are vast majorities of people who are getting healthcare at the time and place that is the most expensive and most costly. At MY expense! The mandate effectively says ... "you can't do that. You can't make a decision (not to be insured)because you are impacting other people (infringing on their rights)." If, hypothetically, it was a decision that ONLY impacted that individual choosing not to be insured, then go for it. But it doesn't. This should smack you virtually right up side the head. It is right up your alley ... "lame and lazy" folks forcing their will on us responsible folks by making us pay their bills.



I don't listen to people who make a living out making everything an ideological battle and a controversy. They are a LARGE part of the problem ... not a solution. Bill O'Reilly said it best the other day:

"You can make a lot of money by being an assassin," he said. "It doesn't matter: right wing or left wing. You go in and you're a hater -- radio, cable, in print, whatever -- you can get paid. And there's a people who do that. And they go in, they don't even believe half the stuff they say. ... Capitalism drives that. There are people -- Americans -- who want to hear hate."

That is what Lew Rockwell is. He is a right wing radio shock jock. Same as Rush, same as Boortz, same as Hannity, same as Beck, and so on (there are others on left too).

Get back to me with your own thoughts.

The problem many of us have is that your approach assumes that a Government that gave us the TSA (homeland Security in general) A current Administration that can't see that soldiers votes are counted, one that throws money at soon to be bankrupt companies, the Goverment that is responsible for the often blasted War on Drugs, the Government that has bankrupted Social Security by robbing it blind, is suddenly going to be able to do Health Care correctly.

Sorry but you are betting on a three-legged horse in the Kentucky Derby

Last edited by countrygun; 10-10-2012 at 16:11..
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:23   #302
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A good friend of my mother lives in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Two years ago, she had liquid built up inside her knee. A bit uncomfortable, but not emergency. Doctors refused to see her right away, reasoning that it was not an emergency. She got on waiting list. Sixty weeks later, she could no longer walk (crutch) excruciating pain, but not life and death emergency, she got her doc appointment.

She tried to see doc in Vermont, with cash. They wouldn't see her for fear of legal problems if complications developed.

You guys can argue ideology as much as you want. All I know is that I don't want a system like Canada. Social meds!

Nanny can sound like she's taking care of you, on paper. But she's so busy taking out the trash that you'd be better off fork out some cash and let the neighborhood boy do it for you.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:46   #303
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Why do you seem to be continuously attacking me personally or based on ideology when I'm addressing specifics in a (relatively) polite manner?
Because your ideology is biased in socialism. I HATE socialists. You’re not playing devils advice for sake of a debate you honestly believe in socialism.

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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
You have not responded or refuted my post at all. You simply are repeating a generalized ideological statement about others "forcing their will on people" ... when I've given you an outlined, logical argument that says it is for that EXACT reason that the mandate is needed (to prevent others from "forcing their will on people"). Frankly, to this point, I see your responses to me as a cop-out.
There is no logical reason to make others bear the burden for those that refuse to do for themselves. I have a family. I provide for that family. I don’t ask for others to pay for their needs. I give to “my chosen charities”. Neither you nor the government has a RIGHT to tell me what “charity” I must support. The government has NO RIGHTS ONLY THE POWER GRANTED BY The People. The liberal/socialist/you argue it’s necessary. It’s only “necessary in your mind.

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What realistic solution do you have beyond repeating the same ideology?
I don’t need a solution. The bleeding hearts do. No pay… No play! SULUTION!

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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Do you accept the reality that people WILL get medical care regardless of Obamacare or whether it is a right or privilege (like they did before Obamacare was passed)? It isn't an ideological question ... simple question based on reality.
So because people “will get medical care regardless” you expect me to pay for them. Tell you what. Next time you car brakes take it to a mechanic and let him fix it. See what happens if you don’t pay. Bring it back after not paying and see what happens.

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PS - I'm not flintlocker. Address me please. You seem to really have an infatuation with him or he really got under your skin. May I suggest you PM him if he won't debate you in a forum thread instead of inserting your past issues into this debate?
The reason I compare you to Flintlocker is you both have the same liberal/socialist ideology. You wish to “force” your agenda on others. As I stated above I HATE socialists. I have no tolerance for socialists. All that is wrong with this country has come to be because of Progressive/Liberal/Socialists’. I have no respect for your ideology or what it has done to this country so don’t expect me to be civil or have any respect for you. Everything you have posted proves my point so why in the hell would I want to debate you point for point when every point comes full circle back to you wanting me and others to pay for those that lack the will or ability to fend for themselves? You want to support them double up on your taxes. Until you do that don’t you dare tell me I should pay for your bleeding heart programs.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:50   #304
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`Well done Jerry! Nuff said!
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:59   #305
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
The problem many of us have is that your approach assumes that a Government that gave us the TSA (homeland Security in general) A current Administration that can't see that soldiers votes are counted, one that throws money at soon to be bankrupt companies, the Goverment that is responsible for the often blasted War on Drugs, the Government that has bankrupted Social Security by robbing it blind, is suddenly going to be able to do Health Care correctly.

Sorry but you are betting on a three-legged horse in the Kentucky Derby
You won't get an argument from me on most of that (War on Drugs, TSA, to certain extent SS). However, I don't like to clump everything together so simply.

Further, when you say government is going to "do Health Care correctly", what do you mean? Because, all Obamacare did was give a gigantic increase in customers to PRIVATE insurers in exchange for requiring coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions and for some insurance ground rules. Same insurers, same hospitals, same doctors. Talk about a boon to big business! I would accept your argument as valid (not necessarily agree with it) if Obamacare was really the implementation of single payer ala .. "Medicare for all". But as it stands, Obamacare is barely more than a boon to the private insurers.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:15   #306
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Because your ideology is biased in socialism. I HATE socialists. You’re not playing devils advice for sake of a debate you honestly believe in socialism.
Blanket statements just indicate blind ideology. Always, never, hate, etc.

Do you believe in SS? Medicare? National Parks? Army Corp of Engineers levy work in you home state? The interstate system?

I'll say it again. You don't know me. I haven't labeled you.


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Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
There is no logical reason to make others bear the burden for those that refuse to do for themselves. I have a family. I provide for that family. I don’t ask for others to pay for their needs. I give to “my chosen charities”. Neither you nor the government has a RIGHT to tell me what “charity” I must support. The government has NO RIGHTS ONLY THE POWER GRANTED BY The People. The liberal/socialist/you argue it’s necessary. It’s only “necessary in your mind.
Precisely. Which "the mandate" takes as stab at mitigating ... preventing others from bearing the burden for those that refuse to do themselves. You fail to see the forest for the trees.

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I don’t need a solution. The bleeding hearts do. No pay… No play! SULUTION!


So because people “will get medical care regardless” you expect me to pay for them. Tell you what. Next time you car brakes take it to a mechanic and let him fix it. See what happens if you don’t pay. Bring it back after not paying and see what happens.
For what I think is the 3rd time, YOU ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR THEM in the form of higher direct health care costs and insurance rates. With or without Obamacare you will continue to do so ... the only difference being with Obamacare the pool of folks you will pay for will be much smaller (i.e., cost less).

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Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
The reason I compare you to Flintlocker is you both have the same liberal/socialist ideology. You wish to “force” your agenda on others. As I stated above I HATE socialists. I have no tolerance for socialists. All that is wrong with this country has come to be because of Progressive/Liberal/Socialists’. I have no respect for your ideology or what it has done to this country so don’t expect me to be civil or have any respect for you.
More blanket accusations and categorizations. I sometimes wish I lived in a black and white world too. Unfortunately, rational adults don't/can't.

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Everything you have posted proves my point so why in the hell would I want to debate you point for point when every point comes full circle back to you wanting me and others to pay for those that lack the will or ability to fend for themselves? .
You have proven nothing besides you won't address my logic. You won't debate me, presumably, because you CAN'T. You will just continue to retreat to ideology.

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You want to support them double up on your taxes. Until you do that don’t you dare tell me I should pay for your bleeding heart programs.
I'm not asking you to pay more on taxes. I'm asking the uninsured to insure themselves, so you and I don't have to pay for them. If they don't want to insure themselves, then they will get "motivated to" via tax penalty.

Which camp are you in? Are you not insured and pissed you will have to be (or pay a penalty) ... or are you insured and therefore will see a leveling off / decline in the rate of increasing healthcare costs?

If you are the former, than you ARE the deadbeat we've been discussing! If you are the latter, than what are you *****ing about again?


Last edited by douggmc; 10-10-2012 at 17:23..
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:19   #307
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
You won't get an argument from me on most of that (War on Drugs, TSA, to certain extent SS). However, I don't like to clump everything together so simply.

Further, when you say government is going to "do Health Care correctly", what do you mean? Because, all Obamacare did was give a gigantic increase in customers to PRIVATE insurers in exchange for requiring coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions and for some insurance ground rules. Same insurers, same hospitals, same doctors. Talk about a boon to big business! I would accept your argument as valid (not necessarily agree with it) if Obamacare was really the implementation of single payer ala .. "Medicare for all". But as it stands, Obamacare is barely more than a boon to the private insurers.

So your arguement is that private insurers will make more money and some how it is going to cost the people less???

Where is the extra profit for the private insurers coming from?
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:53   #308
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So your arguement is that private insurers will make more money and some how it is going to cost the people less???

Where is the extra profit for the private insurers coming from?
Yes. That isn't the precise line of logic ... but basically yes.

If private insurers have an increased premium paying base of customers, it mitigates the costs of covering their "expensive" customers (i.e., those that they previously would NOT have covered due to pre-existing conditions or dropped because of expensive medical conditions). The fact that these "expensive" customers are now covered, decreases "written off" unpaid medical costs incurred by healthcare providers. In turn, those previously unpaid costs incurred by the hospitals, doctors, etc. ... are not passed on to us and insurance companies in the form of ever increasing premiums and direct costs.

It isn't my argument. It is the fundamental reason for the mandate.

Mitt Romney says it pretty well:
Mandate “is essential for bringing the health care costs down for everyone and getting everyone the health insurance they need.”


I would just like to add ... to snipe a bit at Jerry ... I don't think the mandate is perfect. I can come up with better alternatives. BUT ... it is WAY better than what we had. Entirely, ironically, for the VERY reasons he is so adamantly outlining/objecting too (others not "pulling their load"). He won't acknowledge it ... or maybe can't grasp it. Not sure.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-10-2012 at 18:00..
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:34   #309
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I would just like to add ... to snipe a bit at Jerry ... I don't think the mandate is perfect. I can come up with better alternatives. BUT ... it is WAY better than what we had. Entirely, ironically, for the VERY reasons he is so adamantly outlining/objecting too (others not "pulling their load"). He won't acknowledge it ... or maybe can't grasp it. Not sure.

I am sorry, but I don't see ANY benefit to me, and I don't think it is going to save me one dime. Nothing the Government is in the same room with, ever saves me a dime and no insurance company has ever cut the cost of anything unless I moved into a lower risk group. I also do not see how my health care quality will be increased.

I haven't heard that Government involvement has really turned the Canadian health care system into some wonderous thing and I further have doubts that the law of unintended consequences has been examined in depth.

Any Federal program has to be "one size fits all" and sooner or later there are going to be some kind of "fairness" lawsuits and we will have to modify the behemouth project nation wide, and it will grow just like every other Federal program until it becomes a gigantic millstone around the taxpayer's neck, and who else will there be to pay for it?
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:22   #310
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Blanket statements just indicate blind ideology. Always, never, hate, etc.
Oh so you want all warm and fuzzy. Another liberal concept that has no place in reality.

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Do you believe in SS? Medicare? National Parks? Army Corp of Engineers levy work in you home state? The interstate system?
SS? Yes. I and my employer(s) have PAID for it for “my retirement” for over 48 + years. It’s not our fault the government stole the funds. Medicare? Same thing! I pay for it every paycheck. National parks? NO! Another progressive idea that We the People have to pay for. Wilderness arrears? Yes! No need for upkeep or government employees. Levy systems should be a state issue not Federal Government. The Interstate? Do you know why the interstate was “really” built. It was modeled after the “German Autobahn”. It was built so troops can be moved quickly across this country. No I don’t approve.

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I'll say it again. You don't know me. I haven't labeled you.
I don’t need to know you. I know your type. I could care less if you label me or not. And that’s another difference between you and I. You actually believe “feelings” matter when it comes to right and wrong. Much wrong has been done because of people wanting to “feel good” about themselves and not caring about the cost.




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Precisely. Which "the mandate" takes as stab at mitigating ... preventing others from bearing the burden for those that refuse to do themselves. You fail to see the forest for the trees.
Let me see. If one can’t afford insurance or to pay one gets a free pass. If one is here illegally one gets a free pass. But If I can afford to pay I must pay for those that don't. If I choose not to buy insurance I must pay a tax to cover those that can't afford or are here illegally. Do you actually know what’s in the Obomacare bill? Obviously not! There is also a lot more than healthcare covered in it. Am I going to tell you what? Hell no, read the damn thing.



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For what I think is the 3rd time, YOU ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR THEM in the form of higher direct health care costs and insurance rates. With or without Obamacare you will continue to do so ... the only difference being with Obamacare the pool of folks you will pay for will be much smaller (i.e., cost less).
And who was forcing me to pay. Actually no one if chose not to purchase insurance and pay on as needed basis. The liberal/socialists made FREE treatment mandatory. I could buy healthcare or choose to pay as I needed care before Obomacare. I was not forced to pay for a product I may not want. It was MY PREROGATIVE. Did you read what Benn Stine said? Oh, that’s right you don’t pay attention to him. You’re going to tell me that what I couldn’t afford to pay for before I can now “afforded” to pay for while also paying a government agency to oversee while paying a committee to tell me what services I can have and what I can’t even though I’M PAYING FOR THE SERVICE.. Only a liberal/socialist IDIOT would call that logical, reasonable and fair.



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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
More blanket accusations and categorizations. I sometimes wish I lived in a black and white world too. Unfortunately, rational adults don't/can't.
Actually rational adults let ADULTS run their own lives and don't want a nanny state.



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You have proven nothing besides you won't address my logic. You won't debate me, presumably, because you CAN'T. You will just continue to retreat to ideology.
Actually I don’t need to “prove anything”. I made a statement. You perused it and proved that you ARE a liberal/socialist/progressive. But in tipical liberal/socialist/progressive fashion your head is so far up your own but you can’t see the vast MAJORITY agree with me and not you.



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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
I'm not asking you to pay more on taxes. I'm asking the uninsured to insure themselves, so you and I don't have to pay for them. If they don't want to insure themselves, then they will get "motivated to" via tax penalty.
Again! Obamacare states if I choose to pay for as needed care I must pay a tax. It says I must have insurance while it allows those that can’t afford it and are here illegally a free ride. NO CHANGE to that which we had before Obabacare. What has changed is I am NOW FORCED TO PAY for several NEW government agencies and the government gets to tell me if I’m ALLOWED to receive treatment.

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Which camp are you in? Are you not insured and pissed you will have to be (or pay a penalty) ... or are you insured and therefore will see a leveling off / decline in the rate of increasing healthcare costs?
What camp ore you in? ARE YOU GOING TO DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR TAX. I NOTICE YOU KEEP AVOID ANSWERING THAT QUESTION. The camp I’m in is the camp that believes in the Constitution. Obomnacare is unconstitutional. If it was the Scots wouldn't have use the, "it's a tax" to say it was when the US Attorney actually argued that it wasn’t a tax.

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If you are the former, than you ARE the deadbeat we've been discussing! If you are the latter, than what are you *****ing about again?

Dead beat? I’ve been employed steadily since I was 15 years old. I’ve paid SS since I was 15 years old. I was married at 19, My first child was born when I was 23. I PAID THE BILL! My second child was born when I was 24. I PAID THE BILL! I was involved in a motorcycle accident. My bill was over $75,000.00. I PAID THE BILL! I have paid taxes every year since I was 21 years old. My parents paid them before that. I paid for my children’s education. When Katrina hit I don’t ask for one dime of government handouts/ The Peoples/my money... I took care of myself. So that’s what I’m ****ing about. We all know what you’re about.
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:39   #311
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Government involvement in healthcare created the mess. More government involvement won't fix it.

It's the typical socialist paradigm. Create a problem so you can propose a solution.....that others pay for.
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:45   #312
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Government involvement in healthcare created the mess. More government involvement won't fix it.

It's the typical socialist paradigm. Create a problem so you can propose a solution.....that others pay for.

Or their other typical solution to it


"It failed because we need more of it"
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:52   #313
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SS? Yes. I and my employer(s) have PAID for it for “my retirement” for over 48 + years. It’s not our fault the government stole the funds. Medicare? Same thing! I pay for it every paycheck. ...
I don't need to read or debate any more with you. You summed it up. You are a retiree (48+ years "paying in" to SS and Medicare) who is on SS and Medicare. You have owned the "system" for 50 years, bankrupt it with your policies, wants to take what is "theirs" because they "paid into" it, but now cut and run.

I knew it. YOU are the socialist government money grabber!

Does screaming "socialism is evil", after you cash your SS check every month make you feel better?

Instead of me "doubling up on my taxes" to pay for your commie liberal progressive single payer universal healthcare system called Medicare that you partake in ... why don't you do the right thing and just forgo any medical services you might need ... or just pay out of pocket and see how that goes.

HILARIOUS ... I knew as I typed it (i.e., "Which camp are you in? Are you not insured ... deadbeat ..." ) you would take the bait and out yourself as a SS and Medicare recipient.

There is a pyschological term for people like you ... I can't recall it (I'll google and see if I can find it). Is it ... 'projection'? Something like that ... along the same lines of a closeted homosexual that goes out gay bashing to somehow reconcile their repressed sexuality.

Peace

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Old 10-10-2012, 19:59   #314
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I am sorry, but I don't see ANY benefit to me, and I don't think it is going to save me one dime. Nothing the Government is in the same room with, ever saves me a dime and no insurance company has ever cut the cost of anything unless I moved into a lower risk group. I also do not see how my health care quality will be increased.

I haven't heard that Government involvement has really turned the Canadian health care system into some wonderous thing and I further have doubts that the law of unintended consequences has been examined in depth.

Any Federal program has to be "one size fits all" and sooner or later there are going to be some kind of "fairness" lawsuits and we will have to modify the behemouth project nation wide, and it will grow just like every other Federal program until it becomes a gigantic millstone around the taxpayer's neck, and who else will there be to pay for it?
Well .. I can't debate feelings or beliefs. You are certainly entitled to them though. I know certifiedfunds position ... we've debated healthcare for years. He is sort of like Jerry (but more well-versed), in that he views everything as essentially socialism, and wants de facto anarchy. At least he is consistent, I'll afford him that courtesy.

Let me ask: Do you accept the premise that everyone will get health care services?

If so, what is your solution? What is the system you envision?

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Old 10-10-2012, 20:43   #315
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I don't need to read or debate any more with you. You summed it up. You are a retiree (48+ years "paying in" to SS and Medicare) who is on SS and Medicare. You have owned the "system" for 50 years, bankrupt it with your policies, wants to take what is "theirs" because they "paid into" it, but now cut and run.
Right! 48 years = a SS check. You can't even get that right.

How old am I smartass?

I and my employers have been FORCED to pay into SS and Medicare. We paid yet you get all high and mighty because you though I might be getting some of MY money back. What a You want me to give my money to others but have a tantrum because you "think" I might be getting a little of MY OWN money back.

I've never been on a government program. How many have you been on?
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Old 10-10-2012, 21:39   #316
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Well .. I can't debate feelings or beliefs. You are certainly entitled to them though. I know certifiedfunds position ... we've debated healthcare for years. He is sort of like Jerry (but more well-versed), in that he views everything as essentially socialism, and wants de facto anarchy. At least he is consistent, I'll afford him that courtesy.

Let me ask: Do you accept the premise that everyone will get health care services?

If so, what is your solution? What is the system you envision?

I will pretty much save time and go to your basically flawed premise and you obvious overlooking recent news events.

If you paid attention through the liberal BS you will notice that Romney said at the debate that it was the job of the States to work out the majority of health care financing.

Just as everybody missed it when he was getting blamed for "piloting' Obama care" When he first started speaking out he said "Look folks, I told the Administration that it was the solution that the people and legislature of Mass wanted not a plan for the whole Country". everybody must have been asleep or have short memories.

There are 50 States that have the opportunity to become "labs". trying solutions, some of them will fail and when they do it will be bad for them but a failed national system fails all 50 States. gradually, the successful ones will stand out and become models. Much like in the free enterprise system.

It may sound just unimaginable to a couple of more recent generations that it isn't an "OMG we have to do something NOW" solution, those tend to have a history of failure anyway in case you have been taking notes.

I think it is failed idealism to ever suggest hat everyone would, or should, have access to the same level of care as evryone else. A free society cannot support raising evryone to the top level all it can do is lower the top level (Canada ring a bell?). Part of the freedom of a free society is fewer freebies and more responsibility and incentive to succeed, not a safety net for failure.

Last edited by countrygun; 10-10-2012 at 21:59..
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Old 10-10-2012, 21:58   #317
douggmc
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Right! 48 years = a SS check. You can't even get that right.

How old am I smartass?
Is that some sort of challenge? Why don't you just save me the trouble of making inferences based on what you wrote ... and just tell me?

I'm gonna go with ... at LEAST 63 (You said started working at 15, and have been paying into SS and Medicare for 48+ years). Therefore you are either currently on SS (eligibility starts at 62) or it is imminent with in couple years. Pretty much same with Medicare.

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I and my employers have been FORCED to pay into SS. We paid yet you get all high and might because you though I might be getting some of MY money back. What a You want me to give my money to others but have a tantrum because you "think" I might be getting a little of MY OWN money back. What a moron.

I've never been on a government program.
If you partake in either SS or Medicare... you are/will be on a socialized program.

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How many you been on?
Let's be clear ... I'm not the one *****in' about the "evil progressive socialist programs" in one breath, then cashing my government check in the other. So ... your little argument falls flat.

For the record, I'm 41. I have also worked since I was about 13 (for cash) and from age 14 (on payroll record) during summers at least. So ... whoopdeedo on you. Did you walk to school in the snow barefoot uphill (both ways) too?

I sure have taken a government check and I'm not embarrassed about it: For about two years, I (my mother actually ... it paid for groceries) got 180.00/month in SS death benefits as my father died when I was 15. I also got the GI Bill and VA medical care. The difference between you and me is ... I don't scream socialism because Lew Rockwell and Rush Limbaugh tell me to do so. I acknowledge good programs for their face value. I understand things aren't always perfect and might need tweaked and reworked as time goes on and demographics change. I think for myself. Novel concept .... huh?
.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-10-2012 at 22:22..
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:03   #318
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I will pretty much save time and go to your basically flawed premise and you obvious overlooking recent news events.

If you paid attention through the liberal BS you will notice that Romney said at the debate that it was the job of the States to work out the majority of health care financing.

Just as everybody missed it when he was getting blamed for "piloting' Obama care" When he first started speaking out he said "Look folks, I told the Administration that it was the solution that the people and legislature of Mass wanted not a plan for the whole Country". everybody must have been asleep or have short memories.

There are 50 States that have the opportunity to become "labs". trying solurions, some of them will fail and when they do it will be bad for them but a failed national system fails all 50 States. gradually, the successful ones will stand out and become models. Much like in the free enterprise system.

It may sound just unimaginable to a couple of more recent generations that it isn't an "OMG we have to do something NOW" solution, those tend to have a history of failure anyway in case you have been taking notes.

I think it is failed idealism to ever suggest hat everyone would, or should, have access to the same level of care as evryone else. A free society cannot support raising evryone to the top level all it can do is lower the top level (Canada ring a bell?). Part of the freedom of a free society is fewer freebies and more responsibility and incentive to succeed, not a safety net for failure.
I didn't miss the argument re: state vs. federal. That is Romney's ideological excuse. I have have heard it a thousand times. It isn't that I don't get it ... I just think it is ideological bull****. It is a standard retort on a multitude of issues ... state vs. federal cop-out if all else fails (don't get me wrong ... I understand the theory based on Constitutional principles) But .. fine. I'll roll with it for arguments sake.

My question still stands, let me just tweak it to accommodate the state constraint ... again:

Do you accept the premise that everyone will get health care services?

If so, what is your solution on the state level? What is the system you envision on the state level?

Last edited by douggmc; 10-10-2012 at 22:06..
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:08   #319
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I didn't miss the argument re: state vs. federal. That is Romney's ideological excuse. I have have heard it a thousand times. It isn't that I don't get it ... I just think it is ideological bull****. But .. fine. I'll roll with it for arguments sake.

My question still stands, let me just tweak it about to accommodate the state constraint ... again:

Do you accept the premise that everyone will get health care services?

If so, what is your solution on the state level? What is the system you envision on the state level?

Do you want me to come up with 50 individual plans as your question requires? Really?

Now I know you must have come across some of the women from my past. Despite what they say I am not Superman and I cannot keep going all night long at a superhuman level,
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:09   #320
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Do you want me to come up with 50 individual plans as your question requires? Really?
Nope. Just your state (I sort of thought that was implied ... pardon me for not being clear).

Last edited by douggmc; 10-10-2012 at 22:11..
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