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Old 10-10-2012, 22:35   #321
countrygun
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Nope. Just your state (I sort of thought that was implied ... pardon me for not being clear).
We actually had a pretty good one in my State when I was younger. I "moved up" from there but, to make it simple, we have a State/private contribution funded medical school and hospital that was available to lower income folks on a voucher system from DHS. Part of our higher ed funding from income and property taxes went to support it. Now it wasn't the "life time full coverage' that seems to be demanded today, (which is unrealistic) but there are States that have more Med schools and might be able to make use of that resource. A good portion of my States "income" is through materials shipped from our publically owned port. Now i will bet screams, but most of the "Port Fees" have been going in the pockets of the union. You talk about the wealthy not paying their share??? some dweeb getting a union job because of his uncle starting at almost $30 and hour for a union job that requires him to actually "work" 5 1/2-6 hrs a day is never going to be paying a "Fair" share in my book. A few little adjustments there and, since we know "Obamacare" is going to hit us financially, the option for an in-State tax of some sort to cover what a few cuts don't cover will certainly be more efficient that sending money to Washington to be doled back out.

A possibility for partial relief for those buying or who's employers buy their insurance, would be nice. But , in the case of our State, the biggest single thing that would lower the cost of health care and improve the available services wold be ....Getting all of the frigging illegal aliens, yes from Mexico, the heck out of our ERs and not gobbling up the resources. (BTW My wife is an admissions person at a hospital, it isn't debateable)
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Old 10-11-2012, 17:52   #322
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Is that some sort of challenge? Why don't you just save me the trouble of making inferences based on what you wrote ... and just tell me?
I'm gonna go with ... at LEAST 63 (You said started working at 15, and have been paying into SS and Medicare for 48+ years). Therefore you are either currently on SS (eligibility starts at 62) or it is imminent with in couple years. Pretty much same with Medicare.
Nope! Haven't gotten there. Yes it was a math test and you get and F.

Actually you brought up the age thing in a futile attempt to make it look like I take “welfare”. You're confusing social programs and welfare. Or you're just trying to muddy the waters. You're trying to equate SS and medicare to welfare. Obamacare INCLUDES WELFARE!


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If you partake in either SS or Medicare... you are/will be on a socialized program.
Now I’ll admit SS and Medicare ARE social programs. However they aren’t “welfare” programs like what is built into Obomacare. Now keep reading because the explanation is forth coming… PLEASE TRY TO KEEP UP. I’ll admit I’m not the greatest English major but anyone that has half a brain and can put their liberal leanings aside should be able to follow.

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Let's be clear ... I'm not the one *****in' about the "evil progressive socialist programs" in one breath, then cashing my government check in the other. So ... your little argument falls flat.
Will I except MY MONEY THAT THE GOVERNMENT STOLE when I reach retirement age? YOU BET YOUR ARSS!!!! Now let me explain. You're 41, you should be able keep up. I hope!

I didn’t want to pay or be part of the SS or Medicare system but I was FORCED to pay into the social programs. Lets just deal with SS for the time being. Now things are going to start going fast so please, please try to keep up. (Oh while we here… I'm highly dyslexic so being the forgiving liberal guy your are I know you’ll understand and not call me to task for misspelled words, missing letters and words that don’t even belong since spellchecker LOVES to insert words even though I have it turned off. So when I go back and edit it's to correct mistakes not to COVER-UP what I’ve said like the libs love to claim. OK?)

So here we go. The government (liberal/socialists) in their ultimate wisdom TOLD, didn’t ask or put to a public vote, (like Obobacare) TOLD The People, we’re going to be your banker, your CD holder, your stock market portfolio. We’re going to take a % of your earnings and invest it for you NO YOU CAN’T OPT OUT and when you reach 65 you will be able to retire and “we’ll give you your money back a little at a time until you die. Oh, and while we’re at it we’re going to FORCE your employer to pay an EQUAL amount so we’ll have plenty of money to ASSURE a retirement for YOU. We’ll put it in a special fund that can’t be touched. Now hole that thought.

Had I/we not been forced to pay SS I could have put that money is CD’s, Stocks etc. ect. I had to deprive my family of certain things so I could use additional money THAT I EARNED to secure a REAL retirement rather than the pittance of MY and MY EMPLOYER(s)MONEY that the government is going to RETURN to me,

Remember I told you to hold that thought. OK here we go. Along the line the government STOLE MY RETIREMENT MONEY and put it in the “general fund”.

Now liberal/progressive/socialist sources are telling you it’s an entitlement program and YOU BELIEVE IT.

So let me try this…. What if… the Government hadn’t FORCED… STOLEN “our” money. What if we had put it in a bank and the president of the bank stole it? You’d be all for the bank being responsible for keep it’s promise wouldn’t you? You would not call it entitlement or charity or a “social program” would you? You'd call it just what it was/is, a retirement plan that was looted.

Now you want to explain to my how those receiving their SS money compare to those on welfare. Would you like to explain how they/we could have opted out of “the social program” they want no part of? And then after the liberal/progressives/socialists STEAL our money they convince the sheeply morons that we're at fault and have something to be ashamed of. Only an idiot would believe SS to be = to welfare.

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For the record, I'm 41. I have also worked since I was about 13 (for cash) and from age 14 (on payroll record) during summers at least. So ... whoopdeedo on you. Did you walk to school in the snow barefoot uphill (both ways) too?

So exactly what does that prove? If it’s even the truth. And before you ask if I’m calling you liar, I don’t care because you’ve proven you’re a liberal/progressive/socialist which puts you in the same category as a liar as far as I’m concerned.

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I sure have taken a government check and I'm not embarrassed about it: For about two years, I (my mother actually ... it paid for groceries) got 180.00/month in SS death benefits as my father died when I was 15. I also got the GI Bill and VA medical care. The difference between you and me is ... I don't scream socialism because Lew Rockwell and Rush Limbaugh tell me to do so. I acknowledge good programs for their face value. I understand things aren't always perfect and might need tweaked and reworked as time goes on and demographics change. I think for myself. Novel concept .... huh?
.
Of course your not embarrassed. Your a liberal/progressive. Actually you father earned the death benefit through his service, but your to stupid to realize that. You believe it's a welfare program. But you jumped on the FREE VA medical care didn't you. He earned that not you. And you're not embarrassed. And that my friends is part of the problem with the country today. People aren't ashamed to take welfare. They believe they are entitled to it and demand that we pay for it.


Now you want tell life stories? Believe me mine makes yours sound like a free ride. Oh wait, you did take money that “YOU” didn’t earn so it pretty much was. I haven’t and won’t. I pay for MY SS and Medicare EVERY PAY CHECK and yes I want as much of MY money back as I can get.

Lew who? Yes I admit I listened to Rush for a while a very long time ago. What did he say about Obomacare? Evidently you must listen to him. Or are yous parroting what you've hear form your liberal spin factories? You may think you “think” for yourself but you aren’t informed. Unless you consider what you here for the liberal/progressive/socialist media being informed. You think Obomacare is “all about” everyone paying an EQUAL share for healthcare because that's what your liberal sources tell you. You're thinking is FUBAR and you have no freaking idea what else in the the 4,000 + pages do you?

Edited to add: Oh, BTW I thought you posted you were through debating with me. Liberals! Don't know their own mind but want to tell the rest of us what's best for us.
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Old 10-11-2012, 19:26   #323
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Hey doug - I have my own healthcare. I pay for it. I like it the way it is.



Why can't you folks just leave me alone?
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Old 10-11-2012, 19:27   #324
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Hey doug - why should a 22 year old guy be forced to buy health insurance he doesn't need?
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Old 10-11-2012, 19:29   #325
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Hey doug - if privately insured people pay for the uninsured in a defacto manner with higher premiums, how does making the uninsured pay a TAX to the government put money back in the pockets of the privately insured?
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Old 10-11-2012, 19:30   #326
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Hey doug - Most productive people have their own health insurance so they won't be paying the TAX.

Who pays the health insurance for poor folks who can't afford the TAX or health insurance?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:05   #327
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Nope! Haven't gotten there. Yes it was a math test and you get and F.

Actually you brought up the age thing in a futile attempt to make it look like I take “welfare”. You're confusing social programs and welfare. Or you're just trying to muddy the waters. You're trying to equate SS and medicare to welfare. Obamacare INCLUDES WELFARE!
a) Actually YOU brought up ages first (and how long you "paid into" SS) ... not me. No failure in my math/inference ... based on what you have given me. As I already said, enlighten me with your statistics if you are taking issue with what I've written ... as I have.

b) I haven't said or introduced or inferred in anyway the word "welfare" or that it is what you are taking by cashing your SS check. Let's be clear YOU are introducing and associating the world "welfare" with SS. I have not. Nor do I. SS and Medicare are socialized government programs. I will assume you are projecting again by throwing out the world "welfare" (see my earlier post about parallel psychological concept of closeted homosexuals that are gay bashers). Guilty much?

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Now I’ll admit SS and Medicare ARE social programs. However they aren’t “welfare” programs like what is built into Obomacare. Now keep reading because the explanation is forth coming… PLEASE TRY TO KEEP UP. I’ll admit I’m not the greatest English major but anyone that has half a brain and can put their liberal leanings aside should be able to follow.
SS and Medicare are SOCIALIST programs. I agree that they aren't "welfare". Don't worry about typos ... I'm not a spelling/grammar nazi (usually).


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Will I except MY MONEY THAT THE GOVERNMENT STOLE when I reach retirement age? YOU BET YOUR ARSS!!!! Now let me explain. You're 41, you should be able keep up. I hope!

....

So here we go. The government (liberal/socialists) in their ultimate wisdom TOLD, didn’t ask or put to a public vote, (like Obobacare) TOLD The People, we’re going to be your banker, your CD holder, your stock market portfolio. We’re going to take a % of your earnings and invest it for you NO YOU CAN’T OPT OUT and when you reach 65 you will be able to retire and “we’ll give you your money back a little at a time until you die. Oh, and while we’re at it we’re going to FORCE your employer to pay an EQUAL amount so we’ll have plenty of money to ASSURE a retirement for YOU. We’ll put it in a special fund that can’t be touched. Now hole that thought.
You have a complete and utter misunderstanding on how SS works and how it was intended to work. SS was NEVER a program where the fed gov was going to take your money and "invest it for you" in some sort of lock box account... and then give it back to you "a little at a time" until you die". It was instead a social contract that the fed gov made with you, where you paid SS taxes, and in exchange you would receive an indexed, monthly amount upon retirement based on formula that used the amount of SS taxes paid in, how long you worked, and your retirement age (you can start receiving as early as 62 ... and postpone receiving until 70 (I believe ... date may be little diff now)).

Think about it ... if it were as you state it was ... how would the first recipients who received SS when it was implemented have been paid (i.e., they didn't put in!)?! In case you can't figure it out... SS recipients' payments are made using the current year's SS taxes received. There is a trust fund if surplus SS tax payments are received in a given year. It is government socialized retirement. The current SS tax payers ... are paying for the current SS recipients.

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Had I/we not been forced to pay SS I could have put that money is CD’s, Stocks etc. ect. I had to deprive my family of certain things so I could use additional money THAT I EARNED to secure a REAL retirement rather than the pittance of MY and MY EMPLOYER(s)MONEY that the government is going to RETURN to me,

Remember I told you to hold that thought. OK here we go. Along the line the government STOLE MY RETIREMENT MONEY and put it in the “general fund”.

Now liberal/progressive/socialist sources are telling you it’s an entitlement program and YOU BELIEVE IT.
It IS AN ENTITLEMENT PROGRAM. Can you say "cognitive dissonance"?

The government can't "steal" tax receipts (you may not like the tax, but separate issue ... vote accordingly if you don't like it, or move, or start a revolution). This goes back to your misunderstanding of how SS works. It isn't put into an account and sitting there accruing for you. Already explained above. Google is your friend.

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So let me try this…. What if… the Government hadn’t FORCED… STOLEN “our” money. What if we had put it in a bank and the president of the bank stole it? You’d be all for the bank being responsible for keep it’s promise wouldn’t you? You would not call it entitlement or charity or a “social program” would you? You'd call it just what it was/is, a retirement plan that was looted.
What are you whining about? You WILL get your SS payment. Nobody stole what is coming to you based on the SOCIALIZED ENTITLEMENT CONTRACT you have. Again ... logic failure based on misunderstanding how SS works/what it is.

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Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
Now you want to explain to my how those receiving their SS money compare to those on welfare. Would you like to explain how they/we could have opted out of “the social program” they want no part of? And then after the liberal/progressives/socialists STEAL our money they convince the sheeply morons that we're at fault and have something to be ashamed of. Only an idiot would believe SS to be = to welfare.
Welfare. Welfare. Welfare. You keep saying it. I didn't. Nor do I think it is ... I call it what is is: entitlements, socialized government entitlements.

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Of course your not embarrassed. Your a liberal/progressive. Actually you father earned the death benefit through his service, but your to stupid to realize that. You believe it's a welfare program. But you jumped on the FREE VA medical care didn't you. He earned that not you. And you're not embarrassed.
1) Further illustration of SS misunderstanding. The perfect irony of you calling me "stupid" is both shocking and hilarious at the same time. SS Survivor's benefits have nothing to do with military service. My father wasn't in the military. He did die at 40 though ... and had paid SS taxes during his working career up to that point. Hence, the social contract we have with SS is that if a parent die's, minor children of said parent get a set upon amount every month (I believe based on a formula similar to that used to calculate SS retirement amounts) until they reach adulthood. It isn't welfare. I I never said it was.

2) I received my VA and GI Bill benefits because I SERVED!! Failure again in understanding GI BILL and VA benefits. These two things (VA and GI Bill) had nothing to do with my father (again ... he never served in military). There was nothing FREE about it the GI Bill and VA medical care ... but it IS an example of a socialized entitlement based government program.

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And that my friends is part of the problem with the country today. People aren't ashamed to take welfare. They believe they are entitled to it and demand that we pay for it.
Wait ... which is it? Is receiving SS Survivor's benefit for 2 years or VA medical benefits or GI Bill welfare or not? You just said in paragraph preceding the above that that isn't welfare. Yet ... in the next paragraph you say it is (and that I should be ashamed of receiving it). Hilarious.

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Now you want tell life stories? Believe me mine makes yours sound like a free ride.
OK ... whatever you say. I suppose I was right then that you had to walk uphill (both ways) to school, in the snow ... everyday?

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Oh wait, you did take money that “YOU” didn’t earn so it pretty much was. I haven’t and won’t. I pay for MY SS and Medicare EVERY PAY CHECK and yes I want as much of MY money back as I can get.
Again ... I'll repeat ... you fail to understand how SS works. Your SS tax payments are paying for current SS recipients. You DON'T pay for YOUR SS and Medicare every paycheck, you pay for those in the program now. Look it up ... don't take my word for it.

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Edited to add: Oh, BTW I thought you posted you were through debating with me. Liberals! Don't know their own mind but want to tell the rest of us what's best for us.
[/QUOTE]

What can I say ... too compelling not to have posted a response and smashed your twisted misunderstanding of SS.

.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:07   #328
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Hey doug - I have my own healthcare. I pay for it. I like it the way it is.
Guess what .... you can keep it. Obamacare will not impact you one bit ... beyond potentially decreasing the rate of increase of your insurance premiums and direct pay medical costs.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:10   #329
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Hey doug - why should a 22 year old guy be forced to buy health insurance he doesn't need?
Because a 22 year old guy can get hit by bus whether he chooses to or not. He, however, (starting in 2014 when Obamacare fully takes effect) will no longer be able to force you and I to pay for his medical care after said bus hits him ... because he CHOOSES not to be insured.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:13   #330
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Hey doug - if privately insured people pay for the uninsured in a defacto manner with higher premiums, how does making the uninsured pay a TAX to the government put money back in the pockets of the privately insured?
It is a stick and carrot thing. That is why it is called a tax penalty ... the "stick" in said analogy. It will, on a macro level, move those people that CAN afford to (but previously chose not to) to insure themselves ... thereby decreasing cost.

Your a smart guy. Right?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:17   #331
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Guess what .... you can keep it. Obamacare will not impact you one bit ... beyond potentially decreasing the rate of increase of your insurance premiums and direct pay medical costs.
No. I can't. You folks are taking away my HSA. Why are you doing that?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:20   #332
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Hey doug - Most productive people have their own health insurance so they won't be paying the TAX.

Who pays the health insurance for poor folks who can't afford the TAX or health insurance?
It is a straw man argument. These same "poor folks" were already either:
a) Falling through the cracks and receiving their health care in the most cost prohibitive way ... the ER. Forgoing preventative care, thereby making a proverbial mountain (of costs) out of an anthill (e.g. 10 per month metformin prescription (the anthill) instead of a stroke and amputations (the mountain). Either way ... we were paying for it already. We will continue to under Obamacare .... just cheaper. or;
b) Already low income enough to be on Medicaid.

The only thing Obamacare will do is put more of these folks into scenario b (so scenario a won't occur as much .... again bringing down costs of health care overall at macro level).
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:20   #333
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Because a 22 year old guy can get hit by bus whether he chooses to or not. He, however, (starting in 2014 when Obamacare fully takes effect) will no longer be able to force you and I to pay for his medical care after said bus hits him ... because he CHOOSES not to be insured.
So don't treat him.

I know its hard for socialists, but tell the truth. 22 year old kids getting hit by busses and not paying their bill isn't the problem, is it? The fact is, 22 year olds don't consume healthcare. Old people do. Obamacare is designed to force the 22 year old into the system to pay for healthcare he won't be using, so you can get your hands on his money.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:21   #334
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Because a 22 year old guy can get hit by bus whether he chooses to or not. He, however, (starting in 2014 when Obamacare fully takes effect) will no longer be able to force you and I to pay for his medical care after said bus hits him ... because he CHOOSES not to be insured.
What if he just chooses to pay the fine instead of buying insurance?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:22   #335
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It is a straw man argument. These same "poor folks" were already either:
a) Falling through the cracks and receiving their health care in the most cost prohibitive way ... the ER. Forgoing preventative care, thereby making a proverbial mountain (of costs) out of an anthill (e.g. 10 per month metformin prescription (the anthill) instead of a stroke and amputations (the mountain). Either way ... we were paying for it already. We will continue to under Obamacare .... just cheaper. or;
b) Already low income enough to be on Medicaid.

The only thing Obamacare will do is put more of these folks into scenario b (so scenario a won't occur as much .... again bringing down costs of health care overall at macro level).

Hey doug - how do you provide more healthcare to more people and do it for less money?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:24   #336
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Hey doug - healthcare is a limited resource. What happens when you give it to everyone?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:24   #337
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It is a straw man argument. These same "poor folks" were already either:
a) Falling through the cracks and receiving their health care in the most cost prohibitive way ... the ER. Forgoing preventative care, thereby making a proverbial mountain (of costs) out of an anthill (e.g. 10 per month metformin prescription (the anthill) instead of a stroke and amputations (the mountain). Either way ... we were paying for it already. We will continue to under Obamacare .... just cheaper. or;
b) Already low income enough to be on Medicaid.

The only thing Obamacare will do is put more of these folks into scenario b (so scenario a won't occur as much .... again bringing down costs of health care overall at macro level).
The only thing obamacare will do is increase bureaucracy, increase costs and decrease healthcare availability.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:28   #338
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Hey doug - can you provide a single other area where the government has inserted itself and decreased cost while increasing quality?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:32   #339
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Hey doug - can you provide a single other area where the government has inserted itself and decreased cost while increasing quality?
Well they inserted themselves into the home loan business...
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:35   #340
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No. I can't. You folks are taking away my HSA. Why are you doing that?
Hey ... I'd be all for making all health care expenses tax deductible. Fine by me. Would that make you happy?

But seriously you are hinging your argument on an HSA (created by the way under GWB as part of the largest, unfunded, entitlement program this country has ever seen ... Medicare Part D)? An account in which you can deposit 2500 (or ~5000 family) pre-tax per year. I'm glad you reduced your taxable income by 5000 bucks ... that is a whopper of an argument and savings! Or maybe you like it because it allows you to effectively bonus up your retirement income if you don't use the money on health care ... a "under the radar" IRA if you will. If it is the latter, to frickin' bad. Use an IRA or another investment vehicle that was meant for that purpose.

So .. If it is the former and you do use it (or most of it) on health care expenses ... well .. congratulations, you saved about 100 bucks last year.
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