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Old 09-19-2012, 21:41   #1
jbglock
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Serbu Super Shorty for Less Lethal Use

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

Getting one will be no problem as I have a local dealer that actually keeps these in stock. It will be a personal purchase via a living trust that he will set up for me (he has been selling restricted items for decades so I trust him). I'm pretty much set on getting it just because I like it and think it would be a fun range toy a few times per year. I already have a full size duty shotgun. I guess I'm just trying to justify it a bit more in my mind so on to my question...

Anyone ever thought of using one as a less lethal? Basically I'm allowed a less lethal as long as it is stored separate from my patrol shotgun, is color coded orange (orange electrical tape or a spray painted grip is accepted), is only loaded with less lethal rounds, and is not stored with anything other than less lethal rounds. My thoughts are...
1. It is compact.
2. My main use would be bringing into a crowd breaking up the occasional street fight (30 to 40 people) usually by myself of with one other officer if one is near and free.
3. 3 shots should get the point across and if things go bad it is still an easy transition (dropping it across my back from a sling) to my handgun. Luckily I've never had that kind of problem breaking up a crowd. Worse I've had is having to put one on the ground hard to arrest.
4. I hate pepper spray. I'm one of those people that is overly sensitive to it and I'm not required to carry it so I don't.
5. I carry a baton but find it hard to use and not end up with someone at the hospital. I prefer not having to sit at the hospital with someone for hours on end (even one hour is too much) vs. just carrying them strait to the jail.
6. I carry a X26 Taser but honestly I use it less and less as the years pass. Usually I'm right on someone when things go bad and prefer in that situation to try and control them with hands vs. a Taser unless I have another officer present to make sure they don't hit the ground hard. 99% of the time when it's force it seems we are either in a parking lot or on a city street. Again I'm trying to minimize the chance of injury requiring me to have to babysit a prisoner at the hospital.
7. We don't carry extra cartridges so the Taser is one shot. I have had little luck with a drive stun causing actual pain compliance.

So any opinions? For what I plan to do with this it would be up close and personal only. Or am I trying too hard to justify this a bit more in my mind?
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Old 09-19-2012, 22:34   #2
DaBigBR
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My thoughts:

Sounds neat, but totally impractical. Beanbags are limited velocity and limited accuracy as it is, so the very short barrel and geometry are going to further handicap that. The limited capacity could also become an issue in that the gun becomes something you have to hold on to after you burn up the three rounds, especially in the street fight scenario you mention.

If I was able to bring my own less lethal shotgun, I would stay at or above 14", go with the youth stock for more vest-friendly geometry, but that's just me.
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Old 09-19-2012, 22:42   #3
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DBBR has it. The projectile velocity is going to be poor and the aim will be poor. Less lethal weapons should NEVER be deployed without a lethal cover officer next to you.
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Old 09-19-2012, 22:45   #4
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Quote:
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DBBR has it. The projectile velocity is going to be poor and the aim will be poor. Less lethal weapons should NEVER be deployed without a lethal cover officer next to you.
Although I do love the idea of breaking up a ghetto street fight with some bean bag rounds...
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:20   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
My thoughts:

Sounds neat, but totally impractical. Beanbags are limited velocity and limited accuracy as it is, so the very short barrel and geometry are going to further handicap that. The limited capacity could also become an issue in that the gun becomes something you have to hold on to after you burn up the three rounds, especially in the street fight scenario you mention.
DaBigBR nailed it. As someone who uses bean bags more than most (about 50-75 times a year, usually on bears), their limited velocity would be their downfall in a short barreled shot gun. They already drop like a rock after 20 yards out of a 16" barrel.
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:47   #6
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Thanks for all the advice. A lot of things I hadn't considered since I didn't know. Even though we can have a less lethal not one officer in my department has one yet. I guess since they would have to buy it themselves. I also had no idea the rounds would be of such limited range. I would be using them at less than 20 feet but considering what you all have posted it doesn't sound like a good idea even then out of that short of a barrel.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:28   #7
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Serbu was very responsive to emails a couple years ago when I was looking at the SuperShorty. Based on his emails, I don't think you will lose a lot of velocity from this short barreled shotgun. I would contact him to see if he has tested the bean bag rounds.

Additional thought, if I was in your situation, I would want to put a stock on the gun. This would allow it to be used to as a club if needed. I am thinking knox stock, pushed in as far it will go.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:37   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbglock View Post
Thanks for all the advice. A lot of things I hadn't considered since I didn't know. Even though we can have a less lethal not one officer in my department has one yet. I guess since they would have to buy it themselves. I also had no idea the rounds would be of such limited range. I would be using them at less than 20 feet but considering what you all have posted it doesn't sound like a good idea even then out of that short of a barrel.
I also think 20 feet is a dangerous distance for the rounds. What is your backup plan at that range when somebody decides to turn and charge you, pull a weapon, or god knows what else.

I definitely don't see the harm in having less lethal, though, and if all it took was a cheap, used 870 and a can of orange Krylon, I would have one. Options are good.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:12   #9
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How about Taser Xrep cartridges? Pricey but effective(?)
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:38   #10
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http://www.taser.com/support/x12-xrep

No longer made. From what I can gather they were $160 per round. I personally couldn't afford it.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:52   #11
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One of our force options instructors was doing research on short barreled shotguns using less lethal rounds. If I recall anything with a barrel length less than 14" is useless because the muzzle velocity is too low to be effective.
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Old 09-20-2012, 17:51   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
My thoughts:

Sounds neat, but totally impractical. Beanbags are limited velocity and limited accuracy as it is, so the very short barrel and geometry are going to further handicap that. The limited capacity could also become an issue in that the gun becomes something you have to hold on to after you burn up the three rounds, especially in the street fight scenario you mention.

If I was able to bring my own less lethal shotgun, I would stay at or above 14", go with the youth stock for more vest-friendly geometry, but that's just me.
I agree. I would want the sight radius and a stock to take a steady aim.
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Old 09-20-2012, 17:57   #13
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Originally Posted by DaBigBR View Post
Although I do love the idea of breaking up a ghetto street fight with some bean bag rounds...
I have always wanted to ricochet a few rounds of rubber buckshot off the sidewalk at a big brawl. It would have to put a serious sting on the legs.
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Old 09-20-2012, 17:59   #14
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Might as well have a sharp-toothed breacher barrel for your multi-purpose slightly-less lethal shotgun, in case a riot breaks out.
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Old 09-20-2012, 18:34   #15
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I have a Serbu Super Shorty 870 but its my patrol shotgun. Its also a dedicated breaching/melee tool.

I would not use LL in it and I can't anyway because it isn't blaze orange and I'm not a stupidvisor.
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Old 09-20-2012, 18:50   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
I have a Serbu Super Shorty 870 but its my patrol shotgun. Its also a dedicated breaching/melee tool.

I would not use LL in it and I can't anyway because it isn't blaze orange and I'm not a stupidvisor.
I had to stop laughing before I could reply. They let you qualify it or you carry it anyway? Some of us have weapons that aren't qualified but only use them for humanely putting animals down.
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Old 09-20-2012, 19:39   #17
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I'm a firearms instructor and armorer so I stopped asking for permission about 5 years ago.

I actually qualify on it tomorrow at 1430.
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Old 09-20-2012, 19:48   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Serbu was very responsive to emails a couple years ago when I was looking at the SuperShorty. Based on his emails, I don't think you will lose a lot of velocity from this short barreled shotgun. I would contact him to see if he has tested the bean bag rounds.

Additional thought, if I was in your situation, I would want to put a stock on the gun. This would allow it to be used to as a club if needed. I am thinking knox stock, pushed in as far it will go.
Putting a stock on it would make it a SBS instead of an AOW which is going to cost a lot more in tax stamps, not to mention some states don't allow it. CA is one where there is no modern SBR/SBS but AOW is okay.

So I can get my Serbu but no 14" Rem870.
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Old 09-20-2012, 19:58   #19
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Recoil is a little on the rough side with the Serbu. The parties on both ends will be stunned.
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Old 09-20-2012, 20:23   #20
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Cop Talk
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