GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-02-2012, 17:36   #1
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Are you saved by grace or do you expect a discount?

What does it mean to be saved by grace through faith?

If you believe that you are saved for God's kingdom in this life and the future you have come to the place where you are willing to follow His will. His law is written in your heart through the grace of the indwelling Spirit of God.

If you claim to be born again and yet are following a self willed life and indulging in sin you are in denial of your true condition.

I John 2:5. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in Him. By this we know that we are in Him.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Last edited by Vic Hays; 10-02-2012 at 17:37..
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 18:17   #2
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
If you claim to be born again and yet are following a self willed life and indulging in sin you are in denial of your true condition.
.

That line right there is the basis of Christianity. Sin conscious, all the time.

Many do not understand the love that God has for them because this sin consciousness is the main message of many.

Sin hurts the sinner, it does not hurt God. God is always there to help us in our sin. To sin is to "miss the mark". Nothing more.

Now the question of "saved". Saved is a present moment reality experienced as a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with the future. "Saved" is relationship.

Have fun!
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 19:39   #3
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Yes, saved is a relationship and it is now.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings.
Isaiah 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isaiah 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

God is saving from sin not in sin.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 20:24   #4
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Yes, saved is a relationship and it is now.

God is saving from sin not in sin.
God saves right in the midst of sin. The relationship does not stop because sin is present. The emphasis is the goodness of God, and not the badness of sin.

Sin, sin, sin. Christians love to talk about sin. For Christ sakes, God knows we fall short, and God is there anyways. This is the same with our human relationships. We fall short, but we endure. We get better at not falling short if we learn from our mistakes. It is that simple.

Grace is always present.

.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org

Last edited by NMG26; 10-03-2012 at 00:51..
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 22:50   #5
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
sin cannot exist in the presence of God.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 00:48   #6
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

Obviously sin can exist in the presence of God. God is in us or have you forgotten?

I am amazed that Christians don't know that God loves sinners. Remember Jesus. He hung with men. Jesus was killed by sinners. He existed and continues to exist just fine. Your doctrine does not line up with your reality.

The Holy Spirit is in you. You sin. When you sin, the Holy Spirit does not leave you. Vic you are preaching confusion.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 03:31   #7
MaxxAction
Senior Member
 
MaxxAction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 4,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
sin cannot exist in the presence of God.
Vic...

Go back to even the original story of sin and you will see this is false.

In the story, when Adam and eve blew it, who hid from whom? Who went looking for whom?

Who was asking questions? Where are you? Why are you hiding? Who told you you were naked?

Who took away their self styled covering made of scratchy itchy leaves and fashioned a much more comfortable one?

Your proposition keeps God constantly at a distance because we all know we fall short. If you manage to go a day without any overt sin, you feel pretty good, but the next time you do, you feel like god has turned his back. A never ending revolving door of gods love " I'm in, I'm out, I'm in, I'm out." with that type of theology it is no wonder so many are so neurotic where there spiritual health is concerned.
__________________
Will Wrestle You For Food
MaxxAction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 08:44   #8
Schabesbert
Senior Member
 
Schabesbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 10,616


Quote:
Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
Sin hurts the sinner, it does not hurt God.
Wrongo.
As with any parent, it is hurtful to the parent to see their child fail, especially morally.

Quote:
God is always there to help us in our sin.
YES, but it is because He loves us too much to leave us to our sin.
__________________
He is no fool who exchanges that which he cannot keep for that which he can never lose.

Ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou
Schabesbert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 08:53   #9
Altaris
Senior Member
 
Altaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Round Rock, TX
Posts: 11,191
How much is the discount for? Is it like a buy one get one free?
__________________
To Alcohol !
The cause of, and solution to, all of lifes problems
-Homer Simpson-
Altaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 09:18   #10
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
I am saved by Grace... Jones.
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 10:15   #11
MaxxAction
Senior Member
 
MaxxAction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 4,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I am saved by Grace... Jones.
Grace jones got out of that business years ago...

You might check with this Grace, Grace Potter.

Religious Issues

Much cuter too.
__________________
Will Wrestle You For Food
MaxxAction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 11:47   #12
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
How much is the discount for? Is it like a buy one get one free?
Those who expect a discount expect to get saved with their sins instead of from their sins.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 11:54   #13
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxAction View Post
Vic...

Go back to even the original story of sin and you will see this is false.

Your proposition keeps God constantly at a distance because we all know we fall short. If you manage to go a day without any overt sin, you feel pretty good, but the next time you do, you feel like god has turned his back. A never ending revolving door of gods love " I'm in, I'm out, I'm in, I'm out." with that type of theology it is no wonder so many are so neurotic where there spiritual health is concerned.
Knowing we fall short keeps us humble and close to The Lord. Yes, we are always in God's love. Jesus sacrifice allows this temporarily if we do not grieve way the Spirit of God. God expects us to perfect holiness by our association with Him.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 12:52   #14
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxAction View Post
Grace jones got out of that business years ago...

You might check with this Grace, Grace Potter.

Religious Issues

Much cuter too.
Yummy... she can save me anyday.

She can save my brains out.

Last edited by Glock36shooter; 10-03-2012 at 12:53..
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 14:34   #15
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Discount Vic?
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding

Last edited by Roering; 10-03-2012 at 14:34..
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 15:55   #16
MaxxAction
Senior Member
 
MaxxAction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 4,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Yummy... she can save me anyday.

She can save my brains out.

She looks like she'd be cool...

Not all hoitey toitey buy me something, take me to dinner girl. More like the hang out at home and have a few drinks girl.
__________________
Will Wrestle You For Food

Last edited by MaxxAction; 10-03-2012 at 15:56..
MaxxAction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 16:00   #17
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Discount Vic?
Yes, the discount.

If you have entered into a New Covenant relationship with God, you will see Him as Savior and Lord.

Some people are willing to go as far as honoring 9 commandments. They would like a 10 percent discount.



Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 16:41   #18
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Yes, the discount.

If you have entered into a New Covenant relationship with God, you will see Him as Savior and Lord.

Some people are willing to go as far as honoring 9 commandments. They would like a 10 percent discount.



Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
As Jesus had so eloquently expanded on the subject during his Sermon on the Mount, it appears that there are none who have honored all 10 of the commandments.

So perhaps when I arrive I will see St. Peter doing the discount double check dance. You had better hope that you do too!
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 18:40   #19
brokenprism
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Yes, we are always in God's love. Jesus sacrifice allows this temporarily if we do not grieve way the Spirit of God. God expects us to perfect holiness by our association with Him.
(Emphasis mine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Those who expect a discount expect to get saved with their sins instead of from their sins.
(So that I don't tick anybody off, I intend the following as helpful correction, to align your view with a historically orthodox position. I believe you're a little wide of the mark here, and I offer the following as guidance, not criticism. Your passion and sincerity is worthy of Apollos, but I think you may have been misled somewhere in your walk.)

Yes, you are saved from your sin, but you are also saved in your sin. We can't go 5 minutes without sinning.

Your Theology sounds strangely Pelagian. Pelagius (as you know) claimed we could live sinless lives, once saved. He was condemned by several chuch councils (Nicea in 418, I believe, was the last. Theologian Roger Nicole said "We are born semi-Pelagian in our thinking" : that is, it is natural for us to believe that we contribute something -- even the smallest thing -- to our salvation. And it is wrong to believe that. The Reformers ultimately condemned the semi-Pelagian view at the Synod of Dort in 1618/19, as the North African councils condemned Pelagianism in 415 and 418.

I'll pull a pin on a grenade here and say that it is possible to be genuinely saved, to go on and sin like a sailor, and still inherit eternal life with hardly a hiccup. (We won't, of course, live that way if you're saved, but it's possible.) You appear to be underestimating what the sacrifice of Christ did for you. It did EVERYthing. The only thing we do believers is exercise the faith that was given to us as a gift. We contributed nothing; if our confidence is based in any way on our performance, we have not believed the gospel. If we're saved, we are 100% righteous now and forever, and there will never appear so much as a speck of dust on that white robe, no matter what we do. If we live like hell, we may not live long, and our reward will be correspondingly meager -- wood, hay, and stubble -- but our performance, good or bad, is never an issue with our justification. Ever. It's an issue with our growth, but not our position. Our 'holiness' is imputed to us by the Lord; lock, stock, and barrel. The personal outworking of that holiness, no matter how hard we try, will be feeble, inadequate, and more blemished than we can imagine -- even more, if we think for a minute that we can attain some kind of holiness in ourselves if we only try hard enough.

Nice thread topic though.

Last edited by brokenprism; 10-03-2012 at 18:48..
brokenprism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 21:40   #20
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
As Jesus had so eloquently expanded on the subject during his Sermon on the Mount, it appears that there are none who have honored all 10 of the commandments.

So perhaps when I arrive I will see St. Peter doing the discount double check dance. You had better hope that you do too!
The Bible says we are all sinners. Jesus died for my sins. That does not give us an excuse to continue in sin. I praise God that I have been given a choice to choose to follow Jesus or to remain desperately sinful and lost.

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 21:57   #21
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
(Emphasis mine)

(So that I don't tick anybody off, I intend the following as helpful correction, to align your view with a historically orthodox position. I believe you're a little wide of the mark here, and I offer the following as guidance, not criticism. Your passion and sincerity is worthy of Apollos, but I think you may have been misled somewhere in your walk.)

Yes, you are saved from your sin, but you are also saved in your sin. We can't go 5 minutes without sinning.

The personal outworking of that holiness, no matter how hard 1 try will be feeble, inadequate, and more blemished than we can imagine -- even more, if we think for a minute that we can attain some kind of holiness in ourselves if we only try hard enough.

Nice thread topic though.
To abandon all hope of reflecting the image of Jesus is philosophy directly from satan. What you are expounding is cheap grace. You expect a 100 percent discount.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Do you think that Sons of God is only a philosophical phrase?

Does God have no power in your life?
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Last edited by Vic Hays; 10-03-2012 at 21:59..
Vic Hays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:10   #22
SDGlock23
Glockoholic
 
SDGlock23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Land of Forgetfulness
Posts: 7,500
Those who choose to believe (walk with Jesus and live for Him) are saved by grace through faith.

Yes we are still in our fleshly bodies and still have the capacity to sin. As Paul says, "where sin abounds, grace much more abounds" but he also said that we shouldn't continue in sin so that grace can abound. God loves us yes, but too many seem to get mixed up in that they believe God is also accepting of sin. Perhaps they see that He loves us and they take it to mean that He is accepting them even though they are sinners, so sin must not be a big deal to Him. No.

It's obvious that God despises sin, and I will agree that if we sin that the Holy Spirit (I'm speaking of Spirit filled believers of Yahshua Ha Mashiach) doesn't leave us, but convicts us. But we must have a repentant heart...He sees and knows our hearts so we aren't fooling anyone but ourselves. Committing a sin isn't the same as living in sin.

If I sin then I repent immediately. However if a certain aspect of my life is altogether sinful and I think it's okay (or worse think that God is accepting of it), that's another story altogether...like living with your boyfriend or girlfriend as an example. In James Ch. 1 we read : We are tempted (God doesn't tempt us) when we are drawn away by our own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God isn't going to accept sin, He isn't going to accept death. Sin brings forth death but Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.
__________________
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
SDGlock23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 11:29   #23
Tilley
Man of Steel
 
Tilley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,160
Sin is the physical manifestation of what is inside of you. The act itself is not the sin, but the driving thought is.

If I get angry and use profanity towards that person, the utterances are relatively meaningless compared to the willingness inside of me to curse another.

I (we) need to offer ourselves to the risen Lord during those times to overcome this horrible nature that lives inside all of us. Romans 7:14-25 has helped me to understand the dichotomy of my nature.
Tilley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 11:32   #24
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilley View Post
Sin is the physical manifestation of what is inside of you. The act itself is not the sin, but the driving thought is.

If I get angry and use profanity towards that person, the utterances are relatively meaningless compared to the willingness inside of me to curse another.

I (we) need to offer ourselves to the risen Lord during those times to overcome this horrible nature that lives inside all of us. Romans 7:14-25 has helped me to understand the dichotomy of my nature.
I thought you weren't coming back until people like me were gone.
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 11:43   #25
GreenDrake
Rip Lips
 
GreenDrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,642
Oh man, my driving thoughts have me going straight to hades, I can't even go out in public, especially in the summertime in a resort town. I'd be in jail for a lot of thoughts.
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC
GreenDrake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:16.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,159
379 Members
780 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42