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Old 10-07-2012, 08:14   #26
RonS
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Any way you could get video from above the gun? I would love for someone on GT to nail this issue.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:17   #27
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The light was only on for WWB and only for one video clip. It was not on at any other time, though this is my wife's bedside gun and does need to run with the TLR2 in place.

I did have slomo of the ejection in the vid, and now that you mention it, the brass kinda comes out sideways. The same footage of my Gen 4 G23 that day shows the brass flipping end over end like you'd expect. I'll be sure to compare the two in my G23 vid that I hope to finish today (if the rain stops).

While I might be able to fix this with aftermarket parts, I do want to solve this with Glock factory parts. As you've gathered, it's not the cost- it's the principle of it. Also, in some small way, this might also serve as another data point for Glock in trying to fix this for everyone.

I don't buy the conspiracy that they don't care. They might be tired of dealing with it, and not everyone there might be empowered the way they want to do something, but I do think Glock wants this to end.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:21   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post
So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF.

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time.
It's not the way you are shooting some times it's just the gun.

I have and love shooting my Glocks,they function with any load I feed them with Perfection.
One thing all my Glocks have in common is they were all Produced prior to 12/2006,back when perfection was spelled with a capital P.
While I love my Glocks i'm not a fanboy,every company that has ever been or ever will be has had manufacturing problems .
The ones that address their problems and learn from them prosper,the ones that don't well they eventually fade away.
Glock should start taking this seriously if they don't they will loose whatever reputation they once had.
It's sad to watch a once great gun manufacturer ,that had the reputation for functioning no matter what go down hill.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:34   #29
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Correct RSA for the G17 and G19:

G17: 0-2-4 SPO # 8284
G19: 0-4-3 Part # 8703

He has the correct RSA for the G17/34.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:38   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post

I don't buy the conspiracy that they don't care. They might be tired of dealing with it, and not everyone there might be empowered the way they want to do something, but I do think Glock wants this to end.
This is your thread so I am not here to argue with you. I do want to point out that I never said or implied there was any "conspiracy." If you want my opinion (which maybe you don't), if the upper management at Glock really wanted this issue fixed it would have been done by now. This has been going on too long. Glock no doubt has invested a lot of money in the Gen 4, and they may not be willing to scrap the new program in order to get back to the basics of the old Glock. Why wouldn't they just manufacture their guns they way they did in the Gen 2 or early gen 3 days? If you think about it....dollars and cents (or sense).

Like I said, I am not here to argue with you. As a matter of fact, I thought your video was informative and enjoyable. And if you really want to know what I think, I think you should send your video to Glock.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:58   #31
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I definitely had Glock parts in mind, but with you doing the fixing, not them.

If you can't get the parts yourself, maybe a GT Glock armorer would hook you up.

I could be wrong, but in my mind it seems one stupid part has worn or somehow changed. As long as you took any science lab course in HS and spent at least part of the time paying attention and not staring at the cheerleader next to you, you can figure this out!

A multi-million dollar company might not be able to fix the problem, but you can. The Wright brothers, with the help of an employee who could make engines, built a plane to fly, so you can do this
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:59   #32
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Raleigh Glocker,

Excellent video!

One Question:

Have you tired the .40 extractor?

One Observation:

Steel extractors shouldn't wear significently in 1000 rounds. But I have seen springs die in a heartbeat. Was all your shooting in the video done with the same magazine? This looks to me like a magazine or RSA issue. There are lots of different springs involved in extraction.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:01   #33
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4949shooter, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't at all, and I understand that it seems like a mystery that this whole thing hasn't already been worked out. The cost of scrapping the Gen 4 altogether might be a lot more than we realize, just like the extent to which most Gen 4 users actually end up shooting enough to have a problem might be lower than we realize.

I will certainly be mentioning the video when I speak with Glock. Everyone I've spoken with there (for other non-CS things) has been very helpful, and I don't expect anything different this time.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:05   #34
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Raleigh Glocker,

Excellent video!

One Question:

Have you tired the .40 extractor?

One Observation:

Steel extractors shouldn't wear significently in 1000 rounds. But I have seen springs die in a heartbeat. Was all your shooting in the video done with the same magazine? This looks to me like a magazine or RSA issue. There are lots of different springs involved in extraction.
Two different mags, both gave BTF.

I have not tried the 40 extractor- it definitely looks beefier than the 9mm extractor. Plus, though it is also MIM, it does not have the dip (October 2010 vintage).

The truth is that I love my G23 and I don't want to eff it up by putting its parts in the G17. It is my EDC, and I don't want it to go down by my own doing.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:07   #35
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I definitely had Glock parts in mind, but with you doing the fixing, not them.

If you can't get the parts yourself, maybe a GT Glock armorer would hook you up.

I could be wrong, but in my mind it seems one stupid part has worn or somehow changed. As long as you took any science lab course in HS and spent at least part of the time paying attention and not staring at the cheerleader next to you, you can figure this out!

A multi-million dollar company might not be able to fix the problem, but you can. The Wright brothers, with the help of an employee who could make engines, built a plane to fly, so you can do this
Yep. I truly expected to see something amiss with the extractor, but I didn't. I will be taking hi-res photos of that and other parts later, comparing those to the ones in my Gen 4 G23. Maybe it will be apparent at that point.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:07   #36
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Anybody who has worked in an organization of any size is familiar with the concept of institutional inertia. Also groupthink. Twenty people in a room discussing something controversial and 5 of them are thinking, "This is BS, this isn't right, why won't anyone speak up?" But no one does.

Someone sat in a conference room at CocaCola and thought, "Man, this New Coke thing sounds really shaky, if the marketing guys are wrong, we are so screwed."

Glock almost certainly has the data to determine the cause of this problem. The question is, are they willing to examine it with an open mind and tell some project manager that some critical improvement on a part isn't working?
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:24   #37
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A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.
What!

Listen, I've got more than 50 years of pistol shooting experience; the last ten of which I've been certified as a pistol training instructor. All I've got to do is stand at a 3/4 angle behind a shooter and watch him shoot for about 30 seconds. Thereafter, I know what that shooter can or can't do with a pistol; what he's doing right; and what he's doing wrong. (I’m even able to tell how well-coordinated a shooter is, and - depending upon the gunman’s personal attitude and personality - how tough, or easy it's going to be to bring him around!)

You are NOT limp-wristing (or, 'breaking') your wrist when you fire; and, yes, I'll agree that you've been shooting pistol for awhile, now. You're NOT new to the game. In fact, you have a tendency to slightly arc your pistol’s muzzle upward until you get warmed up; (So do I!) but then you straighten out; and I'm able to actually see the force of recoil passing through your elbows and terminating across your shoulders. (Not something you’ll see in an amateur pistol shooter.)

The accusation that you are breaking your wrist has been made by an, 'Internet gun expert' who would do better if he kept his opinions (or, at least, this particular opinion) to himself; but, hey, this is the Internet; people like him actually DO have, ‘a license’; and we, both, know that's never going to happen, anyway.

As for the gloves? They're your choice. From the look of your targets the gloves certainly aren't hurting your accuracy. Gloves, or a wrap-around rubber grip like I use on my Glocks can actually help certain people, under certain circumstances, to control a pistol better and shoot straighter. Personally, I don't care whether a shooter wears them, or not. In fact for most of my life I've worn half-finger gloves while shooting; and several observers have described my ability to use a rifle as either unreal or, 'frigg 'in surrealistic'. (Whatever that means?)

Your video is fine; and I thank you for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by packinaglock View Post
Good review, this is happening to quite a few people at the 800-1000 round mark. I'm starting to think Gaston pissed off a Gypsy a couple years back and she cursed him.
You’re funny!

Well, ........ I went through more than 3,000 rounds of Wal-Mart's, 'finest ammo' before this problem showed up! By the time I had over $1,300.00 invested in my G-19(RTF2), and was, 'committed' to the gun. Unlike Gaston Glock I have personal scruples against passing off a defective product on someone else; so, now that I know the gun has a problem, it's up to me to either get the problem solved or, 'eat' the pistol. (Maybe with some nice warm Wiener Schnitzel?)

My Glock, also, has a #2, ‘dipped’ extractor. Originally, this extractor was slightly oversized, (And NOW I know, 'Why'!) and required high quality SD ammo in order to function. I polished the flats in order to make it work more smoothly; and up to and just past the 3,000 round mark, everything was fine; but then, ……

I’ve now spent a couple of hundred dollars trying to figure this mechanical anomaly out. (Yes, I’ve been reading Randy Lee’s posts over on that other gun forum, too. I agree with much, but not all, of what Mr. Lee has to offer.) The extractor claw geometry is involved; so is even the slightest wear that occurs to the extractor, itself.

The focal point of this problem seems to be how tightly the cartridge head is held against the breech-face. Once the head starts slipping downward, voila, you’ve got a BTF problem! There are, also, secondary issues: Spring fatigue seems to occur in the SLB spring; and this weakens extraction/ejection, too. As another poster has pointed out: Anything that impedes the movement of the EDP rod is, also, going to weaken (or slow down) ejection. This is, ‘Why’ I believe both a Wolff Gunsprings, ‘extractor spring’ as well as the White Sound, ‘HRED’ plunger rod tend to improve faulty ejection; however, the principal problem continues to revolve around the sloppy geometry of the extractor, itself.

In your video all the, now, classic symptoms are present: High arcing, shortly thrown brass; right and left ejection, last round, ‘dribbles’; and genuinely dangerous ejected brass-to-the-face. I have my own strong suspicions as to, ‘Why’ these things are happening; but, I don’t feel like, ‘writing a book’ this morning.

Quickly, the extractor’s overall dimensions are too loose; the claw geometry is wrong; the sintered metal MIM compound is too soft, too imprecisely formed, and doesn’t wear anywhere near as well as it should; (How am I doing!) and certain Glock breech-faces are - ever so slightly - set back and allow extracted brass to slip downward more than others. (Yes, unfortunately, we’re discussing mechanical tolerances that are very small - Perhaps even measured in thousandths of an inch.)

Personally, I would NOT send your troublesome pistol back to Smyrna. I mean, exactly what do you expect that fine pack of duplicitous, ‘gun monkeys’ to do with your funky Glock? All you're going to get is a couple of new parts, that might work for awhile, and a brief note that says something like, 'Pistol is within specification'.



My suggestion would be to do THIS, instead:

(1) Make sure you have a #30274 or #28926 ejector in your Glock.

(2) If your problem Glock is a 9mm then use an; ‘HRED’ EDP Rod (Mine is highly polished.) or, regardless of whether you're using a 9mm or 40 caliber, get yourself some excellent Wolff Gunsprings’, ‘Extractor springs’.

3. Polish your factory-stock EDP rod so that it moves very smoothly inside the channel. (If your channel is rough you’re going to have to find a way to smooth out the interior diameter - It’s a nuisance; but it can be done.) Finally,

4. Do, indeed, order a new Apex Tactical extractor for your Glock. I’m still waiting on my Apex extractor; but after employing these other changes I’ve finally got my own funky Glock BTF problem 97 or 98% under control; and I’m getting comparatively low arcing, minimally adequate 3 to 4 foot, all right-side ejection, too. (I have never had a last round dribble problem with my G-19(RTF2); but I do concur that some Glocks NEED a round in the magazine in order to eject well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
Gabe,

A while back a few had luck with using a 40 S&W extractor.
How did that work out?
This is true; however, all a 40 caliber extractor did for me was to pinch the case heads too tightly against the breech-face. This expedient solution DOES hold the extracted case head more tightly against the breech; but it, also, causes other problems of its own.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:26   #38
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Quote:
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Anybody who has worked in an organization of any size is familiar with the concept of institutional inertia. Also groupthink. Twenty people in a room discussing something controversial and 5 of them are thinking, "This is BS, this isn't right, why won't anyone speak up?" But no one does.

Someone sat in a conference room at CocaCola and thought, "Man, this New Coke thing sounds really shaky, if the marketing guys are wrong, we are so screwed."

Glock almost certainly has the data to determine the cause of this problem. The question is, are they willing to examine it with an open mind and tell some project manager that some critical improvement on a part isn't working?
No doubt, just last week I was talking to my boss about a problem I brought up a year ago. Re-sent him emails from a year ago, and he added his perspective to it, and sent it up to another VP.

Somewheres higher up, people in charge make decisions about what is important to them regarding the organizational goals as they perceive them.

I have no trouble speaking up to my boss, but I don't go outside the chain of command (unless there was some criminal issue, then I would NOT Penn State it).

So some Glock engineer probably figured out the brass to the face problem a year ago, and told his boss. Right now the solution is probably sitting on some VP's desk. That VP may or may not understand it, may or may not care, may or may not tell anyone else about the fix, or maybe that VP discussed it in a room of other VP's and collectively they didn't act or they decided other priorities are more important.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:53   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post
4949shooter, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't at all, and I understand that it seems like a mystery that this whole thing hasn't already been worked out. The cost of scrapping the Gen 4 altogether might be a lot more than we realize, just like the extent to which most Gen 4 users actually end up shooting enough to have a problem might be lower than we realize.

I will certainly be mentioning the video when I speak with Glock. Everyone I've spoken with there (for other non-CS things) has been very helpful, and I don't expect anything different this time.
No worries my friend.

I hope you can get this issue resolved. I am sure many of us will be watching this thread to see how Glock handles the problem.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:21   #40
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About sending it to Glock...

What I really should have said is that I was planning to call Glock and see what they'd be willing to send me. I don't need them to do the work.

That said, I want to see this fixed with Glock parts that Glock armorers say to use first. This is because that's what most Gen 4 users are going to do if they have problems. If I let them do their best and it still doesn't work, I'll go the aftermarket/home gunsmith way.

One important thing to note- this G17 has never failed in any way no matter what I put through it or how I held it. Heck, it even cycled and locked back fully submerged with two different types of ammo (done for a different video on my channel).

Yes, BTF is a problem that needs to be addressed, but this is still an extremely reliable design.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:37   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie-Bean View Post
Correct RSA for the G17 and G19:

G17: 0-2-4 SPO # 8284
G19: 0-4-3 Part # 8703

He has the correct RSA for the G17/34.
100% correct sorry for the misinformation on my part.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:38   #42
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First GEN4 G19 made 800 rounds beore problems. Last one they sent to me went 2000 rounds before BTF problem. Something is obviously wearing out on these guns. most likely the extractor. Different levels of build quality or lack their of probably determine how long it takes for it to start.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:45   #43
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One important thing to note- this G17 has never failed in any way no matter what I put through it or how I held it. Heck, it even cycled and locked back fully submerged with two different types of ammo (done for a different video on my channel).

Yes, BTF is a problem that needs to be addressed, but this is still an extremely reliable design.
I will echo the above, I have not had a stoppage with the pistol but the ejection has become more erratic as the rounds pile on and the frequency of the brass to my face has increased as well.


Greg- I have not yet tried the 40 extractor, I did think about that but in doing research found that initially LW had the 9 and 40 parts mixed up and don't know where they stand now, so would I still need the 40 part or is the 9mm one the correct part now.

I should have the parts in from Smyrna this week sometime and will go from there.

As for the question on whether the new part is MIM or not, I have no clue, did not think to ask, but I believe it would be safe to assume the new part still is, the expense of changing the manufacturing process of this part would be up there so I don't think in the grand scheme of things there have been enough problematic pistols to warrant this.

I will also echo the other statement made about the round count of the average joes gun, most people don't put a few thousand rounds through a gun in a quarter of the year and on a lot of the reports of issues they started at about 1K rounds or higher.

I will update here as well on the parts I receive and the outcome if its ok with the OP, better than having multiple threads on the same subject.

in the mean time my M&P 45's are incoming and will be a nice addition to the safe and the holster.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:46   #44
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Awesome post Arc Angel. Thanks for the well written summary. I just broke 1k through my g19 and if start to have problems I will refer to your post for help.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:48   #45
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My Gen4 17 started acting up right around the 1000 round count. From 1000 rounds until 1500 rounds I had brass to the face and numerous stove pipes. (1 every 30 or so rounds). Glock replaced my ejector and the last range trip of a couple of hundred rounds showed the problem to be resolved; no brass to the face and no stove pipes. I just hope it lasts.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:00   #46
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So are the newer gen4's still being produced with MiM extractors? Or has Glock done something about this? I read they changed them in Nov 2011 but wondering if anyone can confirm this.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:05   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post
So, you're saying that I'm breaking my wrists with a two-handed grip moreso than when I'm barely holding the pistol in the first clip and getting normal ejection? Heck, I do the tea cup pinky and all...

I've got 24 years shooting Glocks with no brass to face except for the first few boxes I ran through my brand new Gen 4 G23 two years ago. It was known then that the RSA was stiff and needed to be broken in, so it didn't bother me.

I've got countless posts here on Gen 4 threads saying, "Mine eject great, thanks!" I've used that G17 in other videos for my YouTube channel, showing beautiful ejection.

I shot 500 rounds that day out of the G17, giving it every chance to stop ejecting BTF. It did not. Once it started, the ejection kept hitting my shoulder and face and going over my head. I practically choked the brown out of it, and it still sent brass towards my shoulder and head.

As to point "C.", I realize that some just want to see one single clip of only shooting. The video of my Gen 4 G23 I'm finishing today will be more to your liking, I think.

That said, I make the kind of video I like to watch, and luckily, others do, too. I appreciate you taking the time to watch it and comment, though.
Raleigh Glocker,

please excuse the village-idiot for that post, every forum has one....

great video.....what is wrong with the glock is the slides are out-of-spec. the guns start out running fine but once the extractor gets smoothed-out and broken-in, thats when the out-of-spec slide starts causing problems....

why some guns have it and some don't, my opinion is that glock has several production lines making slides, and one or more of the machines has been cutting too much material off of the extractor port......
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:11   #48
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Here's another data point. I have pretty much gone to shooting all handloads, mostly 115 grain bullets (HP and FMJ) over 6.2 grains of Unique with a CCI 500 primer in various brands of cases. This is 1/10 th of a grain down from the max load. These were chronographed at 1236 fps average, which is about what Gold Dot 115's move at out of a 4" barrel. I have had no BTF with these, and they all go out either to the right or to the right and up, but always with enough oomph to not hit me. And they are accurate.

A week or so ago I tried a few WWB, and immediately had the BTF problem. This is with a Lone Wolf Distributers extractor, a White Sound Defense extra power extractor spring, and my SLB and EDP.

Maybe one reason Glock hasn't set this problem as a high priority (or as high as we'd prefer) is that they know the guns work well with the ammo they were designed to shoot.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:16   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
Here's another data point. I have pretty much gone to shooting all handloads, mostly 115 grain bullets (HP and FMJ) over 6.2 grains of Unique with a CCI 500 primer in various brands of cases. This is 1/10 th of a grain down from the max load. These were chronographed at 1236 fps average, which is about what Gold Dot 115's move at out of a 4" barrel. I have had no BTF with these, and they all go out either to the right or to the right and up, but always with enough oomph to not hit me. And they are accurate.

A week or so ago I tried a few WWB, and immediately had the BTF problem. This is with a Lone Wolf Distributers extractor, a White Sound Defense extra power extractor spring, and my SLB and EDP.

Maybe one reason Glock hasn't set this problem as a high priority (or as high as we'd prefer) is that they know the guns work well with the ammo they were designed to shoot.
My load is as follows and the issues I am having are regardless of ammo:

Montana Gold or Xtreme 124gr FMJ/Plated
Once fired brass
Wolf/CCI primers
5.1 gr Winchester WSF
OAL 1.120

Have not chrono-graphed it, but been shooting this for a couple of years in various 9MM's with no issues, and have it on good authority this load mimmics the NATO 124gr ball ammo.

Last range trip I did buy a box of Independence 115gr FMJ, and one of PMC 115gr as well, and they BTF was even worse with that ammo, but still happening with my hand loads.

FM
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Last edited by Fire_Medic; 10-07-2012 at 11:17..
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:17   #50
faawrenchbndr
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Tons of great thought & opinions in this thread,......thanks Guys!
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