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Old 11-01-2012, 03:13   #201
TangoFoxtrot
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My optics cowittness with irons! KISS!
Why would one do it any other way?

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We need to keep in miind what type of shooting we are doing.
Does not matter your range plinker might have too by no choice become a HD or battle rifle.

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The base line needs to start somewhere doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the fundamentals be transferable?
Should be!
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:18   #202
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Does not matter your range plinker might have too by no choice become a HD or battle rifle.
So are you going to recommend the bladed up target shooting positions for defensive shooting?
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Old 11-01-2012, 14:47   #203
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Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.

Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.
I guess I was lucky. I grew up in a family that hunts. As soon as I was old enough, my dad took me to a Hunting Safety Program so that I could get my Hunting License. I took to it like a Sparrow to grass seed. I was all over it.

When we hunted here in Ohio, we used shotguns. When we hunted in Pennsylvania, we used a bolt action or a lever action rifle. Depending on where we were. The lever action rifles and the shotguns have Aperture Sights.

I can only use Aperture Sights. I have tried Buckhorn Sights many times and I cannot hit anything with them. When I bought my last Ruger 10/22, as soon as I heard about Tech Sights, I bought a set. They are a huge help and are great for cheap practice.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:01   #204
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So are you going to recommend the bladed up target shooting positions for defensive shooting?
You confuse me. What I said is that any rifle even one for plinking at the range may turn into a self defense weapon.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:17   #205
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You confuse me. What I said is that any rifle even one for plinking at the range may turn into a self defense weapon.
My point is some are talking about the NRAish style bladed up to the target, elbow on the hip shooting. Worthless in most situations. That's why I said we need to keep in mind what type of shooting we are doing. You responded that it doesn't matter. It does.

I agree that any firearm can be used in a defensive role. That is why I advocate familiarization through continued qualified formal instruction followed up by lots of time on the range building muscle memory with quality equipment.
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Old 11-03-2012, 04:28   #206
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Quote: I agree that any firearm can be used in a defensive role. That is why I advocate familiarization through continued qualified formal instruction followed up by lots of time on the range building muscle memory with quality equipment.

Absolutely!!
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Old 11-03-2012, 05:30   #207
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My point is some are talking about the NRAish style bladed up to the target, elbow on the hip shooting. Worthless in most situations. That's why I said we need to keep in mind what type of shooting we are doing. You responded that it doesn't matter. It does.

I agree that any firearm can be used in a defensive role. That is why I advocate familiarization through continued qualified formal instruction followed up by lots of time on the range building muscle memory with quality equipment.
There are two standing positions taught in NRA Basic Rifle Courses:

The arm rest standing position has the shooters feet shoulder width apart with their non dominant side leg very much forward and the shooter leaning slightly away from their target and most of the shooters weight on their dominant side leg. The non dominant side hand is positioned near the rear of the forestock and above the elbow "on" or just above the hip creating a nearly vertical line of support to the ground. This standing position is slower to get into than the free arm standing. It offers most shooters more stability than free arm standing, and thus a higher degree of precision. It is used by rifle match shooters in matches where score is a weighed much more heavily toward precision than time and by hunters shooting small game at any but the closest distances or large game at intermediate and longer range.

The free arm standing position has the shooters feet shoulder width apart and the shooter either squared up to the target or slightly angled with the non dominant foot closer to the target, kind of like a shotgun position. The shooter is leaning slightly toward the target with their nose over a line between their toes. The non dominant side hand is extended to a forward position on the forestock and is pulling the rifle gently or moderately rearward. The free arm standind position is faster to get into and allows the shooter to turn quite a bit at the waist to aquire targets without having to reposition their feet. It is most useful in CQB, hunting larger game at closer ranges, and competitive rifle shooting on closer targets when scoring is weighted with more emphasis on time.

Both positions have their place and no riflemans training is complete until his is well grounded in both. When one has to achieve 4-5 MOA or better precision from a standing position, the arm rest standing position is nice to have in one's bag of tricks. Even many of the 3 gun matches around the country have stages where more precision is required than many can achieve in the free arm standing position. Can some shooters shoot 3 moa and better in free arm standing? Sure, but that often takes much more training and practice than many find practical.
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Old 11-03-2012, 16:09   #208
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Mat you make a lot of good points ...but damn you are too long winded! You got to shorten your posts.
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:53   #209
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No such things as to much training or practice.

Personal preference but I just can't get behind anything firearms related that's not practical. Elbow on the hip leaning away from the target... Like I said, personal preference.

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Old 11-04-2012, 05:30   #210
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No such things as to much training or practice.

Personal preference but I just can't get behind anything firearms related that's not practical. Elbow on the hip leaning away from the target... Like I said, personal preference.

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Yes it is. Im old school. After my 22 yrs in the military and a combat tour later taught me a lot about what works and what doesn't.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:30   #211
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I'm not going to start the "but my combat experience" debate but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you didn't stand straight up, blade yourself to the target, position your elbow in your hip, lean back, slowly squeeze of a round, reposition, then slowly squeeze the trigger sending another round. If so I want to see pictures. That would be a sight. Wallpaper worthy.

Plus I work for a guy who retired after 24 years in the .mil and claims combat and tells everyone who'll listen yet doesn't seem to have the know how that comes w/ such experience.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:50   #212
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
No such things as to much training or practice.

Personal preference but I just can't get behind anything firearms related that's not practical. Elbow on the hip leaning away from the target... Like I said, personal preference.

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It works well for punching paper, and I had the competition scores to prove it at one time.

For combat or defensive shooting? Not so much.
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Old 11-04-2012, 20:53   #213
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I have run Eotechs, Aimpoints, rails, flashlights, vfg's, I ended up selling everything and going back to basics, Carry Handle Sight, CTR, and MOE Handguards.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:13   #214
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I'm not going to start the "but my combat experience" debate but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you didn't stand straight up, blade yourself to the target, position your elbow in your hip, lean back, slowly squeeze of a round, reposition, then slowly squeeze the trigger sending another round. If so I want to see pictures. That would be a sight. Wallpaper worthy.

Plus I work for a guy who retired after 24 years in the .mil and claims combat and tells everyone who'll listen yet doesn't seem to have the know how that comes w/ such experience.
Don't want to start a debate either. No you seeked cover quickly and you didn't do all the range position crap. As far as your co-worker well i guess he is lucky to still be breathing then.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:14   #215
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I have run Eotechs, Aimpoints, rails, flashlights, vfg's, I ended up selling everything and going back to basics, Carry Handle Sight, CTR, and MOE Handguards.

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Nice Brian!
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:07   #216
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Don't want to start a debate either. No you seeked cover quickly and you didn't do all the range position crap. As far as your co-worker well i guess he is lucky to still be breathing then.
Ok, let's back up. I posted that the elbow on the hip standing straight up bladed to the target crap wasn't practical. I thought you responded, "Yes it is." Then in a following post you said and I quote, "No you seeked cover quickly and you didn't do all the range position crap."

I'm lost on your response to my co-worker though.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:13   #217
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Does not matter your range plinker might have too by no choice become a HD or battle rifle.
No, not really. My range plinker is locked up in the safe. I have revolvers stashed all over the house for home defense plus a Saiga 12 with twenty-rounds drum.

As far as it becoming a battle rifle...that probably wouldn't happen unless there's an invasion by the Blue Helmets or Red Dawn 2.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:20   #218
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The squaring yourself to the target shooting stand stems from GIs and SWAT teams who have body armor on and willing to take a hit so that they can return fire on soft targets who aren't similarly armored.

If you're in a firefight without having body armor on, I'd suggest to reduce your silhouette as much as possible...even if it means hiding behind a small tree, get on the ground or; heaven forbids, "blade" towards the target. YMMV.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:24   #219
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Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.
Neither do I. It ain't none of my biznatch how people shoot their guns as long as they don't waive the muzzles all over the joint and sweep me.

Most of them will never have to use their guns in extremis their entire lives. The ones who worry about that sort of thing can take training courses...or joint Uncle Sam's outfit for freebie training & practical application.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:38   #220
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If you're in a firefight without having body armor on, I'd suggest to reduce your silhouette as much as possible.
If at longer distances going prone or finding makeshift support is good but at practical distances for civilian use squaring up is more than just for taking advantage of a ballistic vest. With all your training you should know this.



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