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Old 11-07-2012, 14:19   #241
surf
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Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
WOW did this thread go way off course! Okay fellas fight nice and tell me what fixed rear sight you recommend.
I am still the type of guy that will shoot out to distance with irons and there are times that I will dial instead of holding off. Therefore I like a rear sight that has elevation and not just windage. I go for either a chopped carry handle or I also like the LMT fixed rear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA_357SIG
I just would like to say, the members here that have adopted the newer CQB training should really lay off forcing that system down the throats of members that didn't. Remember, some people here just like to shoot.
I do not disagree and am more than happy with shooters who are pure recreational types. I love to shoot recreationally myself. I hate going hunting or whatever and the campfire sessions turn to shooting and tactics because that is my "profession". I just don't always feel like talking shop, so I get it.

I think the problem lies when others attempt to interject advice into topics that suggest defensive, critical use, or combat type of shooting when their advice is not always accurate or the best advice available in this day in age. Hunting or gaming, not an issue, but when lives may rely on that information it becomes an entirely different thing. Just to touch on what mjkeats mentions, this is when the "Well if it ain't broke, don't fix it" or "I been doing it this way for 40 years since I was taking shrapnel in **** tang valley" guys rear their ugly head. Since they are so vocal about their ideals it is painfully obvious who these types are, both on line and in real life.

I am 45 years old and been at this professionally for most of my adult life. I currently train and teach the most modern techniques, therefore I bridge both gaps of "old school" and "modern combat techniques" so I get where the thinking stems from and have never been out of touch, so I see the progression or lack thereof over the many years. From what I see online and in real life, when guys attempt to offer more current or up to date advice / information, the old school fellas get a bit upset and it goes downhill from there. "Young whipper snappers think ya know it all". Again some of us old timers can be more than a bit stubborn, set in our ways and often times flat out wrong.
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:28   #242
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Longstanding fundamental marksmanship techniques have not been replaced, nor have any new basic marksmanship techniques been adopted. All of the effective rifle marksmanship techniques discussed in this thread have been in both the US Army Basic Rifle Training program and the NRA Basic Rifle Course for over 100 years.


Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.
I will add that while basic fundamentals and basic principles and even base tactics, especially for large units remain the same. However there are many changes that occur with gear, equipment, firearms and TTP's. I have been OTJ for 23 years, and for the last 12 working and teaching at what I guess is considered an advanced level. I will say that much has changed in 23 years. Even in 12 years on the tactical side of things much has changed in all the areas I mention.

I will also add that I am a proud Endowment Member of the NRA and hold most of their NRALE and NRA civilian certs and I will be the first to say that they are a good 20 years behind the curve. Great foundation, but still waay outdated. The NRA as THE primary trainer of LE instructors, it is painfully obvious why most LE is waaay behind the curve. Hell my last NRALE patrol rifle instructor course 2 years ago to update all my certs was the same damn material from 15 years ago. I have all of my manuals and the only thing to change has been the 3 ring binder colors and now they go with a bound spine manual.

ETA - I think the NRA and their instructor certs are a good thing, they are a great foundation for marksmanship and base shooting / manipulations, but by far they are some of the most basic certifications for modern firearms training.
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Last edited by surf; 11-07-2012 at 14:30..
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:38   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Longstanding fundamental marksmanship techniques have not been replaced, nor have any new basic marksmanship techniques been adopted. All of the effective rifle marksmanship techniques discussed in this thread have been in both the US Army Basic Rifle Training program and the NRA Basic Rifle Course for over 100 years.


Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.
Fundamentals are great. We always fall back on them no matter what we do. They're the foundation from which we build. What I'm talking about is different.

------------

I think what we have here is exactly what SURF is talking about. At 34 I feel I am in a great position. Young enough to sponge up good material yet old enough to sift through the crap.
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Old 11-07-2012, 15:08   #244
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
I will add that while basic fundamentals and basic principles and even base tactics, especially for large units remain the same. However there are many changes that occur with gear, equipment, firearms and TTP's. I have been OTJ for 23 years, and for the last 12 working and teaching at what I guess is considered an advanced level. I will say that much has changed in 23 years. Even in 12 years on the tactical side of things much has changed in all the areas I mention.

I will also add that I am a proud Endowment Member of the NRA and hold most of their NRALE and NRA civilian certs and I will be the first to say that they are a good 20 years behind the curve. Great foundation, but still waay outdated. The NRA as THE primary trainer of LE instructors, it is painfully obvious why most LE is waaay behind the curve. Hell my last NRALE patrol rifle instructor course 2 years ago to update all my certs was the same damn material from 15 years ago. I have all of my manuals and the only thing to change has been the 3 ring binder colors and now they go with a bound spine manual.

ETA - I think the NRA and their instructor certs are a good thing, they are a great foundation for marksmanship and base shooting / manipulations, but by far they are some of the most basic certifications for modern firearms training.
I have never met a private citizen who was not a veteran who was sufficiently grounded in the basics to take an advanced course.
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Old 11-07-2012, 15:20   #245
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Fundamentals are great. We always fall back on them no matter what we do. They're the foundation from which we build. What I'm talking about is different.

------------

I think what we have here is exactly what SURF is talking about. At 34 I feel I am in a great position. Young enough to sponge up good material yet old enough to sift through the crap.
The context of this discussion in "Iron Sights", not advanced rifle fighting techniques. My contention is that basic rifle marksmanship is best learned by most using iron sights. If you were referencing advanced rifle fighting techniques, beyond the scope of what Army Basic, most law enforcement post courses, and what the FBI Rifle Course teach, then you have entered a realm where shooters would need to have mastered basic riflery prior to taking the training, thus obviating the need for irons.

Armor, Flir, and other technologies have changed tactics significantly and new rifle techniques have been developed to match the tactics. Only a very small percentage of the population is qualified to be admitted to advanced rifles courses and without a doubt, those folks are ready to move past iron sights.
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Old 11-07-2012, 16:13   #246
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Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
Nice Brian!
Thank you, like I said I tried everything under the sun, guess in the end I am a pureist, I like my rifle with iron sights, handguns with metal frames w/o rails, GI 1911's, and I perfer to have my guns Blued.
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Old 11-07-2012, 16:16   #247
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Because that's super efficient. Right? Hold up, time out, let me affix this bayonet. I could simply shoot you but... well that would make to much sense.


DDs fixed rear.


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You fix bayonet before you engage the enemy, silly.

Besides, what fun is shooting when you can run them through with pig stickers? Cold steel is what drives fear into men's hearts.
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Old 11-07-2012, 16:19   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post

Some rifle handling techniques have changed to keep up with changes in how rifles are loaded. CBQ techniques have been used by our military since General Washington hand picked some men to take out the Hessians in the guard houses at Trenton. Free arm standing was not developed recently for CQB. It was developed for taking quick shots at game in heavily wooded areas and adapted for CQB over 200 years ago.
You don't say? You mean it wasn't invented by the commandos with their scopes and lasers?
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Old 11-07-2012, 17:51   #249
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You fix bayonet before you engage the enemy, silly.

Besides, what fun is shooting when you can run them through with pig stickers? Cold steel is what drives fear into men's hearts.
Just like the racking of a pump shotgun. Right?

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
The context of this discussion in "Iron Sights", not advanced rifle fighting techniques.
Though you are correct I was commenting on a post that made reference to tactics.

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Old 11-07-2012, 20:05   #250
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You don't say? You mean it wasn't invented by the commandos with their scopes and lasers?
Initially, CBQ techniques were developed to cook chickens over open flames. Frontiersmen adapted the technique to cooking geese and ducks, then modified it further for rabbits and deer. We now use the term BBQ to denote cooking over fire with minimal use of utensils generally. Exact interpretations are regional. My NRA License stands for National Restaurant Association.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:24   #251
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WOW all I asked was about iron sights and all the mall commandos come out.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:28   #252
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Nevermind.....

I'll start a thread instead of high-jacking this one any further.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:54   #253
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Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
WOW all I asked was about iron sights and all the mall commandos come out.
Iron sights and bayonet were how we did it back in the days.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:55   #254
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Just like the racking of a pump shotgun. Right?
Apparently so. The Kaiser's boys did not care for good old GI Trench Guns (with bayonet, of course).

But let's not talk about the olden days. Let's talk about right now, in your war of which you are much familiar about its many aspects than I am. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't some foreign outfit conduct a bayonet charge against hajis a few years back?
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Old 11-08-2012, 15:19   #255
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WOW all I asked was about iron sights and all the mall commandos come out.
Ah, web forums....

Anyway, I was taught by my father and later reinforced by some rather straightforward gentlemen on Parris Island, SC to learn AND master irons.

My 16-year old son was taught the same.

To imply the basic principles of marksmanship somehow "change" or become obsolete is akin to inventing a new way to swim or to ride a bicycle; it cannot be done.

Dots/optics certainly have their place but if you cannot understand MOA and utilize irons, you are placing your faith in technology and little else.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:08   #256
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Yes Leigh, you first have to crawl, walk, run. Irons first then optics after.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:06   #257
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Yes Leigh, you first have to crawl, walk, run. Irons first then optics after.
Just my experience:

When I bought my M&P15T, it was (supposedly) very slightly used, and already had an Eotech mounted on it. When I first started taking it to the range (being a complete noob) I struggled to get either the Troy BUISs or the Eotech sighted in properly. This was before I understood POA/POI and trajectory. I really just couldn't get anything to work, and I'd guess that there's a real possibility that my AR had never even been shot before being sold by the orignial owner, much less zeroed.

Slowly I got the Eotech sighted in, and picked a 50 yard zero. With practice I have gotten to the point where 100 yard hits on a torso-sized metal plate are very, very easY while I'm moving side to side, and I can probably shoot a 2-3MOA group from a bench. Decent enough.

Well, I still hadn't been able to get the sights zeroed. So one night with a beer or three helping, I lined up the BUISs with the Eotech reticle center dot. Next time out to the range I took off the Eotech and just shot irons.

The irons are not as precise as the 1MOA dot, nor are they as easy to get onto target quicky.....but they work. I was able to shoot at 50 & 100 yards almost as accurately as with the Eotech. Still, that Eotech's 1MOA center dot is very, very precise, and helped me to learn proper trigger and breathing control early on. Since the reticle's center dot is so precise, it's obvious and easy to see the effects breathing and smooth trigger technique have on aiming and firing, much more so that with the BUISs. Additionally, while learning those techniques, I had only to focus on them, and not also trying to focus on sight-alignment/picture.

Since I had started with the Eotech first, and practiced good breathing and trigger techniques, and then used the Eotech to zero my BUISs, transitioning to the irons finally worked for me.

Because my Troy BUISs do not offer a manner in which the front and rear sights can be very precisely aligned, with no obvious alignment points for them, it was far easier to focus on and practice the basics of trigger and breathing with the Eotech first, and then switch to irons.

Learning happens much faster and easier when there is plenty of feed-back. And the Eotech's 1MOA reticle center dot gave me that. While learning proper breathing techniques, I could see the dot move around the target as I breathed. While practicing trigger technique, I could see the reticle move if I didn't smoothly press the trigger. With the BUISs, there is nowhere near as much feed-back, because they are not as precise. But because I practiced those techniques with the Eotech, switching to the irons was very easy.

This manner in which I learned the basics of shooting my AR support my theory that learning to shoot (and teaching to shoot) advances much faster when the person learning is focused on trigger technique and breathing technique. A new shooter can focus on stance, sighting, and grip (talking pistol here too) all they want, but if they can't smoothly press the trigger, and can't press that trigger at the proper moment in the breathing cycle, they're never going to hit anything. I have taught 3 or 4 new pistol shooters this way, and all of them have gotten on target very quickly, and really enjoyed shooting. And since rifles are far more accurate and precise than pistols, those techniques mean even more when learning to shoot a rifle.

A good friend of mine caught onto my passion for shooting, and he bought a Mosin as his first real firearm. The iron sights on that rifle have a more obvious (to a noob) and precise sight alignment than those on an AR, which are nothing more than a post in a circle with no precise alignment points. On the Mosin, it's a post in a U, so the proper alignment is obvious, and more precise than on an AR IMO. When we brought it home, we were both immediately able to score very accurate hits with it, because the sights are so simple, precise, and easy to use.

Take it for what it is....which is what has worked for me.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:19   #258
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I heard it would make some Russian kid cry if I put optics on my rifle.
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Old 11-09-2012, 16:37   #259
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Upon further review, N/M. Not worth it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 18:52   #260
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I re-learned iron sights by attending an Appleseed shoot. As Surf would say, "I didn't know what I didn't know." Most of my rifles were converted back to iron peep sights.

I do have one AR with 1-4 Mueller Speed Shot scope which I really like. All the rest have iron sights as do most of my hunting rifles.
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