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Old 10-22-2012, 14:01   #121
LA_357SIG
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post

[...snip...]

Thats it.
I agree.
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Old 10-22-2012, 14:10   #122
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What's w/ all these jokers that make stern statements than get soft when asked to provide support? Right or wrong support your statement.
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:07   #123
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Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.
What if you, say, use a flip up BUIS with an absolute co-witness to your RDS, and train with the sites up, only viewing the dot through the sites?
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:33   #124
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What experience brings you to this conclusion?
He's self taught.
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:39   #125
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This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.
Very true. At close range, you can even point and hit with a long arm.
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:46   #126
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At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used.
You might baby your safe queen HD gun, but plenty of others do not.
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Old 10-22-2012, 16:29   #127
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You might baby your safe queen HD gun, but plenty of others do not.
As ususal, such discussions sort posters into two basic groups.

There are those that take ARs very, very seriously, as if combat (for a civilian AR owner) is always something lurking just around the next corner.

Then there are those that use ARs for fun, recreation and basic HD/SD, and take them less seriously.

Those two groups are basically never going to agree on topics like these. And the same basic arguments sprout up in thread after thread.

Let's just agree to disagree, such arguing is completely pointless. If you want to be uber serious about your AR and how you use it, fine, just don't expect that everyone else does. Doing so can end much strife around here.
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Old 10-22-2012, 16:32   #128
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post


This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.
If you do not understand that using deadly force to defend one's family against an invasion of one's home is combat, than you do not have a sufficient grasp of the subject matter to be having a serious conversation about it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 16:32   #129
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You might baby your safe queen HD gun, but plenty of others do not.
Plenty of others? Sure, that post here.

Fact is that the VAST majority of AR owners are nowhere near as serious about owning and using ARs as some posters here.

Hell, the VAST majority of AR owners don't even belong to web-boards like G.T., M4Carbine and the like. Most just use them for fun, recreation, and basic SD/HD.
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Old 10-22-2012, 16:33   #130
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You hit the nail on the head there. You have it all figured out. Self Defense isn't a serious issue, requires no tactical awareness, or firearm proficiency at all.

What's basic self defense. Are there different levels?

Vast majority? What's your source?

You know what would stop the useless back and forth? Staying in ones lane.

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Old 10-22-2012, 16:39   #131
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Or, you could choose to address this from the opposite direction, if we're going to focus on HD/SD and what people choose to practice with when they go to the range.

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

Worried about finding the red dot quickly? Practice it. No matter what, you'll be far, faaar faster aquiring your target with a RDS than irons. Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

If find it a bit disconcerting that some fail to understand that most people's time and money for shooting is not unlimited, and is best utilized by focusing on what you would really do in an HD/SD situation, if that is what we're to focus this discussion on.
There is not a police force or military unit on the planet that tries to teach gunfighting techniques to folks before they teach basic firearms safety and marksmanship. Not one. But hey, maybe all of them are doing it wrong and they could save time and money by doing it your way. Just start slinging lead while looking for the RDS. No need for a cheeck weld that makes it easy to find that red dot every time. What an antiquated approach.
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Old 10-22-2012, 16:48   #132
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If you do not understand that using deadly force to defend one's family against an invasion of one's home is combat, than you do not have a sufficient grasp of the subject matter to be having a serious conversation about it.
That's understandable.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna head to basic training to get ready for it.

Sorry, my life does not revolve around fearing the world around me, to the point where I think I need to be ready for combat at the drop of a hat.

Ya know, like....well, like most normal people.

One way you could look at it, is that the world is not seperated into two distinct and opposite groups. There is not only uber-combat-ready types, and meek, sheeple, victims-to-be types.

There are huge chunks of the population that fall somewhere in between. Folks that can defend themselves and their families well enough to handle the majority of possible negative situations, but don't get into the COMBAT, uber-ninja mentality.

You wanna be ready for anything and everything? Great, spend what time, effort and money you feel is appropriate. I myself don't feel the need to be ready to fight off hoardes of terrorists trying to break down my front door. I myself feel comfortable in knowing I could handle the basic bad situations.

You do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do.
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Old 10-22-2012, 16:55   #133
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There is not a police force or military unit on the planet that tries to teach gunfighting techniques to folks before they teach basic firearms safety and marksmanship. Not one. But hey, maybe all of them are doing it wrong and they could save time and money by doing it your way. Just start slinging lead while looking for the RDS. No need for a cheeck weld that makes it easy to find that red dot every time. What an antiquated approach.
If you feel the need to be ready for combat, or gunfighting, however you want to define it, it's your call.
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Old 10-22-2012, 17:00   #134
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Thinking you can handle a situation and being able to are not one in the same. Under stress I have never seen anyone rise to the occassion. I doubt anyone here is an exception.
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Old 10-22-2012, 17:04   #135
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I find it funny that I don't find the same strife in other areas, like the General Firearms Forum, as is seen here.

Only here in the BRF are there so many people that are so passionate about being ready for anything and everything. The AR15, being the current Military go-to small arm, definitely attracts people that can take it as nothing less than their sword and shield.

Posting in this thread shows that there are several folks here that think that you are either an AR Master 3rd degree, or you're nothing....well, less than nothing, really. Like there is only black, or white, and nothing in-between.

Funny, but many, many firearms owners manage to defend themselves and their family with nothing more than an old family shotgun, .38 snubby, Grandpa's .45 he brought home from the war, or an el-cheapo whatever-you-have-at-hand....

And most of them never went to a combat/gunfighting training course, or served in the Military. Many folks manage to make it through tough HD/SD situations without an AR and combat assault training. Hang out in the GNG lounge a bit. Stories of un-trained people without ARs managing to defend themselves, their homes and family are posted all the time.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/19...ected-burglar/

Hell, it happens everyday in this country. Little old ladies that use a walker shoot intruders. CCWers that can barely load their snubbies manage to stay alive and pop some caps into B.G.s. Even children defend themselves from intruders using Dad's night-stand pistol....hell, a first hand account of that happening was just posted in the GNG Lounge. And I'm pretty sure that kid hadn't been through the SEAL assaulter course yet.

Ya'll do what you think you need to do, and stop thinking that it's necessary for everyone else to think and act the same way.
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Old 10-22-2012, 17:38   #136
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It's funny the amount of people satisfied w/ managing to get by or crossing their fingers and hoping to make it through. If managing to stay alive is alright w/ you then so be it. Natural selection comes to mind. If you want to swing the odds in your favor familiarize. You will not, repeat, will not rise to the occassion. Luck and or managing to come out on top should not be the goal for any red blooded man.

It reminds me of the difference in the team my son plays for and the ones they play against. His team is a, have fun and socialize type of team. The others have obviously prepared to win as they completely destroy my sons team week after week. They may be in it for the fun but the other teams are not. You may keep firearms for fun but not everyone does. You don't choose your opposition so prepare for the greatest denominator not the weakest link.

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Old 10-22-2012, 17:42   #137
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It's funny the amount of people satisfied w/ managing to get by or crossing their fingers and hoping to make it through. If managing to stay alive is alright w/ you then so be it. Natural selection comes to mind. If you want to swing the odds in your favor familiarize. You will not, repeat, will not rise to the occassion. Luck and or managing to come out on top should not be the goal for any red blooded man.

It reminds me of the difference in the team my son plays for and the ones they play against. His team is a, have fun and socialize type of team. The others have obviously prepared to win as they completely destroy my sons team week after week. They may be in it for the fun but the other teams are not. You may keep firearms for fun but not everyone does. You don't choose your opposition so prepare for the greatest denominator not the weakest link.


Yeah, dude, managing to stay alive is defintely alright with me.

Again, you do what you feel you need to do, the rest of us will somehow manage to get buy. Best idea is to not piss off any jihadists, drug dealers, rabid pimps, Dr. Lector, those types of folks.

I made it through Detroit, and that was as bad as it's ever likely to get.
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Old 10-22-2012, 17:53   #138
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Hell, the VAST majority of AR owners don't even belong to web-boards like G.T., M4Carbine and the like. Most just use them for fun, recreation, and basic SD/HD.
I notice you didn't list "babied safe queen" in there.
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Old 10-22-2012, 17:57   #139
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I notice you didn't list "babied safe queen" in there.
Yeah....I used it earlier.

Kinda figured it was just a given at this point.

Not a lot of civilian AR owners jumping out of planes or taking part in MOUT operations.

Take care of your weapon and it will most likely work should you need it. There can be no absolutes, nothing man made is 100% perfect.
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Old 10-22-2012, 18:04   #140
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I made it through Detroit, and that was as bad as it's ever likely to get.


Take a trip to East St Louis.
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