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Old 10-10-2012, 13:54   #21
OctoberRust
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Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
It's hard to make that more clear.

One more thing to add to everyone in this thread.


You are worth what you can convince your employer to pay you. Not a penny less, or a penny more.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:00   #22
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Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
Chesafreak, since youre upset that a Union forklift driver makes more money than you do you need to be doing something about that, like doing better in school or learning a better trade or skill or getting better at what you do. You are paid what you are worth to the employer, who has to maintain a healthy profit or make cuts to do so, like your job and hiring someone for less money and no benefits that can do the job better.

Oh, BTW, who's the Union forklift driver that makes $92k a year?

Plus, quit whining about how much he makes because his employer must think he's worth that much.
Stick to your day job, your attempt at comedy is pathetic.

I'm not whining about what I get paid becuase I think its fair. And FYI, I am studying to gain more I.T. certifications so that I can continue to progress in my career field. I'm simply pointing out that employers don't owe employees anything, and that unions are part of the problem causing lost jobs.

The union forklift driver? Her employer does pay her what she's worth, as in nothing. She lost her job. I was watching a show (think it was 60 Minutes) about the economy and what people are having to do to get by after losing their job. One of the people interviewed was a lady that lost a $92,000 a year job as a union forklift driver. I have met people who made inflated wages and were members of the UAW union, only to lose their job and become hairstylists. Anything inflated must eventually bust or have a correction which is the case with sending jobs overseas to avoid unions or closing plants because you can't sustain a profit with rising costs including union pay scales.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 14:15..
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:02   #23
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Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
One more thing to add to everyone in this thread.


You are worth what you can convince your employer to pay you. Not a penny less, or a penny more.
Not true, you are paid what the free market, competition driven economy dictates (the way it should be), it has nothing to do with convincing anybody of anything.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:10   #24
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Not true, you are paid what the free market, competition driven economy dictates (the way it should be), it has nothing to do with convincing anybody of anything.

I have about 35 years of experience that says you are wrong.

There is a continuum of value within the parameters of an economy, but "value" is relative to that. (to put it simply "How many loaves of bread can you buy, with your pay a week) Your position on that continuum is directly related, and should rightly be, is up to how valuable you make yourself to your employer and how many more loaves of bread you enable him to buy. You thereby increase your "value" to him.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:13   #25
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Guss, what makes you feel entitled to someone's money or assets that they sacrificed part of their life to work hard for?

....
Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:14   #26
OctoberRust
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Not true, you are paid what the free market, competition driven economy dictates (the way it should be), it has nothing to do with convincing anybody of anything.

I've only been in the work force for about a decade, so it's not that much compared to some, however since I've been in IT, in previous companies (not the one I'm with) I could see EVERYONE'S pay.

We had some who definitely could not find a job elsewhere making the same amount they were making with us. They convinced the "man" to pay them that much one way or another.

I'll give you two fine examples.

One - has a son that played football for the CEO's college. Was in the NFL draft/pick whatever that is called and he hired her on for 80k a year being a receptionist, so he could get football tickets.

Two - We had a woman meet up with the director of HR (previous company again) she met him at a bar. She gave him a real good time that night, and he was married. She had a job for over a year making 70k a year.


Both perfect examples of "convincing" your employer to pay you what you're "worth".


Get it now?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:15   #27
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I have about 35 years of experience that says you are wrong.

There is a continuum of value within the parameters of an economy, but "value" is relative to that. (to put it simply "How many loaves of bread can you buy, with your pay a week) Your position on that continuum is directly related, and should rightly be, is up to how valuable you make yourself to your employer and how many more loaves of bread you enable him to buy. You thereby increase your "value" to him.

Whoa, countrygun..... Did we just sort of agree on a topic? Now that's scary!
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:17   #28
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...
I see you mentioned minimum wage as well. That's another job killer...
That's a myth propagated by the restaurant industry. Darden, Outback, and others made that argument when Floridians voted for increasing the minimum wage here. The layoffs didn't happen. It was a lie. It just means that the top dogs don't get to buy a new Mercedes each year, but the minimum wage workers can breathe a little easier.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:24   #29
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Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.

What you want, and how a free society/market works/is supposed to work are two completely different things.

I want a million dollars, but where would that come from?

Those laborers may be hard working, but they have no valuable skill to bring to the table. You need to be more than "hard working" to make any significant amount of money, you need a skill that's in demand. The more in demand your skill is, the more you are able to make demands..... I speak from experience as a CCNA, CCDA, and CCNA voice now.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:25   #30
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Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.
While a restaurant worker may (or may not) work hard, even if they work much harder than a CPA, computer programmer, electrician, etc., they get paid what they are worth for their skills. What does sacrifice have to do with it? We aren't talking about the military here.

While bargaining power may have helped union employees get higher income, what good does it do them when their plant closes and their job goes overseas because they make $50+ dollars an hour as a laborer on an assembly line, or $92,000 a year operating a forklift?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:27   #31
OctoberRust
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That's a myth propagated by the restaurant industry. Darden, Outback, and others made that argument when Floridians voted for increasing the minimum wage here. The layoffs didn't happen. It was a lie. It just means that the top dogs don't get to buy a new Mercedes each year, but the minimum wage workers can breathe a little easier.

A myth? O really?

You are aware that you do not have someone to wipe your windshield, clean your car, and fill it up with gas, at the gas station due to minimum wage laws? They wouldn't pay these guys much, but the reason why they agreed to work the job so cheap is because in their spare time they would be apprentices to the mechanics at these service stations, therefore bettering themselves and their career.

That's one example on how minimum wage killed jobs, and closed the door in one way to someone who has drive to be make themselves more successful and acquiring a skill that leads to such.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:27   #32
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...
While bargaining power may have helped union employees get higher income, what good does it do them when their plant closes and their job goes overseas because they make $50+ dollars an hour as a laborer on an assembly line, or $92,000 a year operating a forklift?
Multiple problems are going on. H. Ross Perot warned what would happen if we dropped our trade tariffs. That problem needs to be addressed as well.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:29   #33
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...
What does sacrifice have to do with it?
...
If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:31   #34
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Multiple problems are going on. H. Ross Perot warned what would happen if we dropped our trade tariffs. That problem needs to be addressed as well.

Why trade tariffs? What do you have against getting a cheaper, more efficient product?

You have to ask yourself why that product is cheaper than what can be produced here, since after all, a lot of these imports aren't near us geographically. So they have to factor in logistics as well.

OH ME! ME! *Raises hand* I can answer that for you Guss!!!!!!


OK GOOD! YOU PICKED ME!


So why they can produce a cheaper and possibly more efficient product than something domestically, a lot of times, is because of that little thing called minimum wage we just discussed. The added cost has to be passed on to somewhere. Be it the employee, or the customer. If it's the customer, it makes it harder for the company, when they're facing competition. This is why people like you advocate trade tariffs.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:33   #35
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If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.

Yes. I have Guss. I worked 2 jobs AND went to school to get my certification on. Instead of crying and saying the man was holding me down, I brain stormed ideas on how to acquire a skill that was in demand, so I wouldn't have to work this hard later on in my life.

I'm almost 24 years old, and I'm already seeing the results. I will continue to brainstorm ideas on how to make more money (just like any successful or potentially successful person will do) and apply it.

It is immoral to sick a gov't on someone for being more successful.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:37   #36
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...
You are aware that you do not have someone to wipe your windshield, clean your car, and fill it up with gas, at the gas station due to minimum wage laws? They wouldn't pay these guys much, but the reason why they agreed to work the job so cheap is because in their spare time they would be apprentices to the mechanics at these service stations, therefore bettering themselves and their career.

That's one example on how minimum wage killed jobs, and closed the door in one way to someone who has drive to be make themselves more successful and acquiring a skill that leads to such.
Wrong! Gas stations used to use good service as a competitive matter. Due to their oligopoly nature, they were able to figure out that if they all dropped the service together, they could pocket the extra money and keep things simple. There were also laws in some states that, for safety reasons, required an attendant to pump gas. After those states got to see that there was no problem in the states with self-help, they dropped those laws.

I see no shortage of mechanics in my area. Where's the problem?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:37   #37
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If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.
Oh, I have had my share of sacrifices, although without the minimum wages. I joined the Navy in order to leave a minimum wage restaurant job at a Shoney's. If 20 years in the Navy isn't enough for you, for three years straight I was getting up for work at 4:30 AM to go into my Navy job, going from there to full time college four nights a week, going home and getting 4.5 hours of sleep a night, AND working part time repairing computers on the side to make ends meet. I had no time for my kids or watching football since I had to either work or do homework on the weekends. I assure you that I have had my fair share of working harder than most minimum wage earners think is possible as well as the sacrifices.

I never cried that the man was holding me back.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 14:38..
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:39   #38
OctoberRust
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Wrong! Gas stations used to use good service as a competitive matter. Due to their oligopoly nature, they were able to figure out that if they all dropped the service together, they could pocket the extra money and keep things simple. There were also laws in some states that, for safety reasons, required an attendant to pump gas. After those states got to see that there was no problem in the states with self-help, they dropped those laws.

I see no shortage of mechanics in my area. Where's the problem?

You don't see shortages with your eyes. You feel it in your wallet. Supply and demand.

Minimum wage got rid of a great apprenticeship program where service station hands had a great opportunity to learn off mechanics, all due to minimum wage and the service station not being able to justify their job any longer.

It's sad you're going this far to try and justify why it's ok to sick a gov't on someone else for being more successful.

Are you in the camp/mentality of the business owner didn't build that, somebody else did?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:47   #39
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Whoa, countrygun..... Did we just sort of agree on a topic? Now that's scary!

Some things are so basic most rational Americans can agree on them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:49   #40
IvanVic
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I've only been in the work force for about a decade, so it's not that much compared to some, however since I've been in IT, in previous companies (not the one I'm with) I could see EVERYONE'S pay.

We had some who definitely could not find a job elsewhere making the same amount they were making with us. They convinced the "man" to pay them that much one way or another.

I'll give you two fine examples.

One - has a son that played football for the CEO's college. Was in the NFL draft/pick whatever that is called and he hired her on for 80k a year being a receptionist, so he could get football tickets.

Two - We had a woman meet up with the director of HR (previous company again) she met him at a bar. She gave him a real good time that night, and he was married. She had a job for over a year making 70k a year.


Both perfect examples of "convincing" your employer to pay you what you're "worth".


Get it now?
There are exceptions to every rule, however, looked at in its entirety, every field will have an average pay that balances out. While it may make for an interesting anecdotal tidbit in casual conversation to point out that you know a receptionist that makes 80K, it is not indicative of the average salary paid in the field, nor is it representative of what the free market demands in that field. An average receptionist can "convince" all they want, they aren't going to receive an 80k salary when the field is examined as a whole.
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