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Old 10-10-2012, 14:14   #26
OctoberRust
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Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
Not true, you are paid what the free market, competition driven economy dictates (the way it should be), it has nothing to do with convincing anybody of anything.

I've only been in the work force for about a decade, so it's not that much compared to some, however since I've been in IT, in previous companies (not the one I'm with) I could see EVERYONE'S pay.

We had some who definitely could not find a job elsewhere making the same amount they were making with us. They convinced the "man" to pay them that much one way or another.

I'll give you two fine examples.

One - has a son that played football for the CEO's college. Was in the NFL draft/pick whatever that is called and he hired her on for 80k a year being a receptionist, so he could get football tickets.

Two - We had a woman meet up with the director of HR (previous company again) she met him at a bar. She gave him a real good time that night, and he was married. She had a job for over a year making 70k a year.


Both perfect examples of "convincing" your employer to pay you what you're "worth".


Get it now?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:15   #27
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I have about 35 years of experience that says you are wrong.

There is a continuum of value within the parameters of an economy, but "value" is relative to that. (to put it simply "How many loaves of bread can you buy, with your pay a week) Your position on that continuum is directly related, and should rightly be, is up to how valuable you make yourself to your employer and how many more loaves of bread you enable him to buy. You thereby increase your "value" to him.

Whoa, countrygun..... Did we just sort of agree on a topic? Now that's scary!
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:17   #28
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...
I see you mentioned minimum wage as well. That's another job killer...
That's a myth propagated by the restaurant industry. Darden, Outback, and others made that argument when Floridians voted for increasing the minimum wage here. The layoffs didn't happen. It was a lie. It just means that the top dogs don't get to buy a new Mercedes each year, but the minimum wage workers can breathe a little easier.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:24   #29
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Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.

What you want, and how a free society/market works/is supposed to work are two completely different things.

I want a million dollars, but where would that come from?

Those laborers may be hard working, but they have no valuable skill to bring to the table. You need to be more than "hard working" to make any significant amount of money, you need a skill that's in demand. The more in demand your skill is, the more you are able to make demands..... I speak from experience as a CCNA, CCDA, and CCNA voice now.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:25   #30
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Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.
While a restaurant worker may (or may not) work hard, even if they work much harder than a CPA, computer programmer, electrician, etc., they get paid what they are worth for their skills. What does sacrifice have to do with it? We aren't talking about the military here.

While bargaining power may have helped union employees get higher income, what good does it do them when their plant closes and their job goes overseas because they make $50+ dollars an hour as a laborer on an assembly line, or $92,000 a year operating a forklift?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:27   #31
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That's a myth propagated by the restaurant industry. Darden, Outback, and others made that argument when Floridians voted for increasing the minimum wage here. The layoffs didn't happen. It was a lie. It just means that the top dogs don't get to buy a new Mercedes each year, but the minimum wage workers can breathe a little easier.

A myth? O really?

You are aware that you do not have someone to wipe your windshield, clean your car, and fill it up with gas, at the gas station due to minimum wage laws? They wouldn't pay these guys much, but the reason why they agreed to work the job so cheap is because in their spare time they would be apprentices to the mechanics at these service stations, therefore bettering themselves and their career.

That's one example on how minimum wage killed jobs, and closed the door in one way to someone who has drive to be make themselves more successful and acquiring a skill that leads to such.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:27   #32
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While bargaining power may have helped union employees get higher income, what good does it do them when their plant closes and their job goes overseas because they make $50+ dollars an hour as a laborer on an assembly line, or $92,000 a year operating a forklift?
Multiple problems are going on. H. Ross Perot warned what would happen if we dropped our trade tariffs. That problem needs to be addressed as well.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:29   #33
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What does sacrifice have to do with it?
...
If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:31   #34
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Multiple problems are going on. H. Ross Perot warned what would happen if we dropped our trade tariffs. That problem needs to be addressed as well.

Why trade tariffs? What do you have against getting a cheaper, more efficient product?

You have to ask yourself why that product is cheaper than what can be produced here, since after all, a lot of these imports aren't near us geographically. So they have to factor in logistics as well.

OH ME! ME! *Raises hand* I can answer that for you Guss!!!!!!


OK GOOD! YOU PICKED ME!


So why they can produce a cheaper and possibly more efficient product than something domestically, a lot of times, is because of that little thing called minimum wage we just discussed. The added cost has to be passed on to somewhere. Be it the employee, or the customer. If it's the customer, it makes it harder for the company, when they're facing competition. This is why people like you advocate trade tariffs.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:33   #35
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If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.

Yes. I have Guss. I worked 2 jobs AND went to school to get my certification on. Instead of crying and saying the man was holding me down, I brain stormed ideas on how to acquire a skill that was in demand, so I wouldn't have to work this hard later on in my life.

I'm almost 24 years old, and I'm already seeing the results. I will continue to brainstorm ideas on how to make more money (just like any successful or potentially successful person will do) and apply it.

It is immoral to sick a gov't on someone for being more successful.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:37   #36
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...
You are aware that you do not have someone to wipe your windshield, clean your car, and fill it up with gas, at the gas station due to minimum wage laws? They wouldn't pay these guys much, but the reason why they agreed to work the job so cheap is because in their spare time they would be apprentices to the mechanics at these service stations, therefore bettering themselves and their career.

That's one example on how minimum wage killed jobs, and closed the door in one way to someone who has drive to be make themselves more successful and acquiring a skill that leads to such.
Wrong! Gas stations used to use good service as a competitive matter. Due to their oligopoly nature, they were able to figure out that if they all dropped the service together, they could pocket the extra money and keep things simple. There were also laws in some states that, for safety reasons, required an attendant to pump gas. After those states got to see that there was no problem in the states with self-help, they dropped those laws.

I see no shortage of mechanics in my area. Where's the problem?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:37   #37
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If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.
Oh, I have had my share of sacrifices, although without the minimum wages. I joined the Navy in order to leave a minimum wage restaurant job at a Shoney's. If 20 years in the Navy isn't enough for you, for three years straight I was getting up for work at 4:30 AM to go into my Navy job, going from there to full time college four nights a week, going home and getting 4.5 hours of sleep a night, AND working part time repairing computers on the side to make ends meet. I had no time for my kids or watching football since I had to either work or do homework on the weekends. I assure you that I have had my fair share of working harder than most minimum wage earners think is possible as well as the sacrifices.

I never cried that the man was holding me back.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 14:38..
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:39   #38
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Wrong! Gas stations used to use good service as a competitive matter. Due to their oligopoly nature, they were able to figure out that if they all dropped the service together, they could pocket the extra money and keep things simple. There were also laws in some states that, for safety reasons, required an attendant to pump gas. After those states got to see that there was no problem in the states with self-help, they dropped those laws.

I see no shortage of mechanics in my area. Where's the problem?

You don't see shortages with your eyes. You feel it in your wallet. Supply and demand.

Minimum wage got rid of a great apprenticeship program where service station hands had a great opportunity to learn off mechanics, all due to minimum wage and the service station not being able to justify their job any longer.

It's sad you're going this far to try and justify why it's ok to sick a gov't on someone else for being more successful.

Are you in the camp/mentality of the business owner didn't build that, somebody else did?
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:47   #39
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Whoa, countrygun..... Did we just sort of agree on a topic? Now that's scary!

Some things are so basic most rational Americans can agree on them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:49   #40
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I've only been in the work force for about a decade, so it's not that much compared to some, however since I've been in IT, in previous companies (not the one I'm with) I could see EVERYONE'S pay.

We had some who definitely could not find a job elsewhere making the same amount they were making with us. They convinced the "man" to pay them that much one way or another.

I'll give you two fine examples.

One - has a son that played football for the CEO's college. Was in the NFL draft/pick whatever that is called and he hired her on for 80k a year being a receptionist, so he could get football tickets.

Two - We had a woman meet up with the director of HR (previous company again) she met him at a bar. She gave him a real good time that night, and he was married. She had a job for over a year making 70k a year.


Both perfect examples of "convincing" your employer to pay you what you're "worth".


Get it now?
There are exceptions to every rule, however, looked at in its entirety, every field will have an average pay that balances out. While it may make for an interesting anecdotal tidbit in casual conversation to point out that you know a receptionist that makes 80K, it is not indicative of the average salary paid in the field, nor is it representative of what the free market demands in that field. An average receptionist can "convince" all they want, they aren't going to receive an 80k salary when the field is examined as a whole.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:53   #41
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Why trade tariffs? What do you have against getting a cheaper, more efficient product?

You have to ask yourself why that product is cheaper than what can be produced here, since after all, a lot of these imports aren't near us geographically. So they have to factor in logistics as well.

...

So why they can produce a cheaper and possibly more efficient product than something domestically, a lot of times, is because of that little thing called minimum wage we just discussed...
As a matter of fact, I can answer that question for you. But first, let me call attention to the fact that yours is the Race-To-The-Bottom argument. Maybe you aspire to giving your children and grandchildren the lifestyle of the Chinese, but I want something better for them.

Yes, the Chinese have cheaper labor. If we make a wiser choice, we can see that a country's wealth and prosperity is a ratio of its resources to its people. Many, if not most, of the countries of the world have ruined that ratio through overpopulation - too many people per resources. The elimination of tariffs means that we have lost control of what is ours as a country. We sold out to the international corporations and set our laws to what they wanted. Look back to the way our country grew and prospered in its early days - import tariffs. Look back to the 1950's when a man, without his wife working, could afford a home and raise a family - import tariffs. But we were tempted by the initial cheapness of a change and forgot about the long-term consequences. Now we pay the price.

Last edited by Guss; 10-10-2012 at 14:53.. Reason: sloppy wording
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:08   #42
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There are exceptions to every rule, however, looked at in its entirety, every field will have an average pay that balances out. While it may make for an interesting anecdotal tidbit in casual conversation to point out that you know a receptionist that makes 80K, it is not indicative of the average salary paid in the field, nor is it representative of what the free market demands in that field. An average receptionist can "convince" all they want, they aren't going to receive an 80k salary when the field is examined as a whole.
If a receptionist can convince you that they are worth 80k/yr salary, then they certainly aren't "average".

How about a prospective employee that interviews and has the same skill levels as another prospect yet they get hired with a higher salary than average because of their people skills during the interview? Still think its not possible to convince someone they you are worth more than the average? Whether through looks, sex, social skills, knowledge, or productivity, people can convince an employer that they are worth more than average.

When I interviewed for my current job, after the second interview I was told that I would have to come back for a third interview with the Director of Administration. I flat out told them that as much as I want the job, I already had a job offer and a plane ticket to leave for LG Electronics headquarters to start work the following week and explained why I wanted to stay here and work for them instead. I also said I wouldn't take the job for what they were offering and asked for 5k more. I got the job on the spot. A year later and they created a new position for me with even higher pay after I demonstrated that I could do the job of an engineer that they typically had to bring in a consultant to handle.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 15:10..
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:21   #43
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If a receptionist can convince you that they are worth 80k/yr salary, then they certainly aren't "average".
That is correct, and that is the point I was making. The larger point is that it wouldn't matter how "convincing" they were, most employers are not going to pay their receptionist that kind of money, either because they can't afford to, or someone else just as qualified would do an equally good job for a much lower wage. Hence, why the average salary for a receptionist is much lower than 80k. The free market has dictated this.

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Still think its not possible to convince someone they you are worth more than the average?
I have never said that it's not possible, I said that the free market cannot, and will not, sustain an entire workforce of receptionist making 80k a year.

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I also said I wouldn't take the job for what they were offering and asked for 5k more. I got the job on the spot. A year later and they created a new position for me with even higher pay after I demonstrated that I could do the job of an engineer that they typically had to bring in a consultant to handle.
Congrats, you took a chance and it paid off, but it doesn't change anything I have stated above.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:28   #44
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That is correct, and that is the point I was making. The larger point is that it wouldn't matter how "convincing" they were, most employers are not going to pay their receptionist that kind of money, either because they can't afford to, or someone else just as qualified would do an equally good job for a much lower wage. Hence, why the average salary for a receptionist is much lower than 80k. The free market has dictated this.



I have never said that it's not possible, I said that the free market cannot, and will not, sustain an entire workforce of receptionist making 80k a year.



Congrats, you took a chance and it paid off, but it doesn't change anything I have stated above.

You started talking about "average" and "entire workforce" when the original argument was that its not possible to convince an employer to pay you more than the average market pay. Anyone who can do that is not average.

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Not true, you are paid what the free market, competition driven economy dictates (the way it should be), it has nothing to do with convincing anybody of anything.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 16:19..
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:45   #45
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As a matter of fact, I can answer that question for you. But first, let me call attention to the fact that yours is the Race-To-The-Bottom argument. Maybe you aspire to giving your children and grandchildren the lifestyle of the Chinese, but I want something better for them.

Yes, the Chinese have cheaper labor. If we make a wiser choice, we can see that a country's wealth and prosperity is a ratio of its resources to its people. Many, if not most, of the countries of the world have ruined that ratio through overpopulation - too many people per resources. The elimination of tariffs means that we have lost control of what is ours as a country. We sold out to the international corporations and set our laws to what they wanted. Look back to the way our country grew and prospered in its early days - import tariffs. Look back to the 1950's when a man, without his wife working, could afford a home and raise a family - import tariffs. But we were tempted by the initial cheapness of a change and forgot about the long-term consequences. Now we pay the price.
That is the most confused jumble of economic ideas I have heard in a long time and comes down, as near as I can clear the mud off of it to "the Government should mandate the level of living and control the free market"

If workers in another Country can make a coffee cup to be sold, at a profit for everyone involved, to Americans for $2 what benefit is it to demand the cup be made in America at a cost of $10? The plumber, the dentis, whomever, has to get paid more for their work to buy a coffee cup, so their services cost more, so the guy making the coffe cup has to get paid more to afford their services, and 'round and round it goes. If we say "we don't want people in this Country to try and get by on what they make producing $2 coffee cups, they must be paid more" then we had better be prepared to get our cups elsewhere.

There has to be a bottom rung on the ladder, if we don't want that rung occupied by Americans then we had better have it occupied by the bottom rung of other Countries.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:54   #46
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Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.
there you go, LIFE ISN'T FAIR!

why equal share? the worker invested nothing nor did they take a risk...
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:06   #47
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That is the most confused jumble of economic ideas I have heard in a long time and comes down, as near as I can clear the mud off of it to "the Government should mandate the level of living and control the free market"

If workers in another Country can make a coffee cup to be sold, at a profit for everyone involved, to Americans for $2 what benefit is it to demand the cup be made in America at a cost of $10? The plumber, the dentis, whomever, has to get paid more for their work to buy a coffee cup, so their services cost more, so the guy making the coffe cup has to get paid more to afford their services, and 'round and round it goes. If we say "we don't want people in this Country to try and get by on what they make producing $2 coffee cups, they must be paid more" then we had better be prepared to get our cups elsewhere.

There has to be a bottom rung on the ladder, if we don't want that rung occupied by Americans then we had better have it occupied by the bottom rung of other Countries.
If a country has a natural advantage (coffee doesn't grow as well here), then the tariff is adjusted accordingly, since we are not really stealing any jobs from Americans.

As to rungs on the ladder, those one the top rung want to eliminate all the other rungs to their own benefit. Even those on the bottom rung deserve a living wage.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:07   #48
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there you go, LIFE ISN'T FAIR!

why equal share? the worker invested nothing nor did they take a risk...
There is nothing in the raw system that bespeaks fairness. It is simply the way things happen to be under the capitalist system. If any element of fairness is to be brought in, it must be done by humans, not a mindless system.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:09   #49
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If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.
Problem is people get emotional instead of logical and they confuse effort and value. The guy digging a ditch is putting a lot more effort into their 8 hours than I am but I provide more value to my employer and they compensate me for that value I bring them. It is just easier to find another guy to dig a ditch. It is easier to replace me then it is to find a guy that can win the triple crown in baseball so he makes more than I do. etc... Make yourself as valuable as you can be. I can not win the triple crown so it is not on my list of goals to become more valuable.

In the end the restaurant is doing it because they can. They are telling the employees they are going to cut the money they bring home and are willing to accept that some many or all of them will leave and the restaurant can and will replace them. If Darden did not think they could and carry on they would not do it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:18   #50
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You can't blame Obama for that - Greedy employers have been using that strategy for many years now to cut not only heath benefits, but other benefits as well. Eventually we'll close the loopholes.
True, the whole democrat party shares that responsibility. Look at it this way, employers are just passing on what the democrat party has delivered to them.
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