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Old 10-10-2012, 16:18   #51
countrygun
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Originally Posted by Guss View Post
There is nothing in the raw system that bespeaks fairness. It is simply the way things happen to be under the capitalist system. If any element of fairness is to be brought in, it must be done by humans, not a mindless system.

Boo-hoo, capitalism isn't fair

Neither is the fact that you have the right to "The pursuit of happiness"

but those mean old Founders didn't promise the happiness.

Every system is unfair to SOMEONE, but in our system you have the freedom to change whether it's you or not.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:19   #52
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There is nothing in the raw system that bespeaks fairness. It is simply the way things happen to be under the capitalist system. If any element of fairness is to be brought in, it must be done by humans, not a mindless system.
Communism would be much fairer right?
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:48   #53
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Communism would be much fairer right?
I don't know. We've never seen a democratic communism.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:49   #54
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Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
You started talking about "average" and "entire workforce" when the original argument was that its not possible to convince an employer to pay you more than the average market pay. Anyone who can do that is not average.
I never disagreed with that argument, but that is not the sentence I quoted when I began this. His exact words were:


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Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
One more thing to add to everyone in this thread.


You are worth what you can convince your employer to pay you. Not a penny less, or a penny more.
His blanket statement is simply not true, and there's no way around it. The only correct blanket statement would be "you are worth what the free market dictates your salary is worth." Exceptions to the rule are part of the free market, as are those who fall closer to the average.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:53   #55
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
...
Every system is unfair to SOMEONE, but in our system you have the freedom to change whether it's you or not.
If you've got the capital, you've got the advantage to change a lot and build an uneven playing field.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:57   #56
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Some things are so basic most rational Americans can agree on them.
Haha indeed.

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There are exceptions to every rule, however, looked at in its entirety, every field will have an average pay that balances out. While it may make for an interesting anecdotal tidbit in casual conversation to point out that you know a receptionist that makes 80K, it is not indicative of the average salary paid in the field, nor is it representative of what the free market demands in that field. An average receptionist can "convince" all they want, they aren't going to receive an 80k salary when the field is examined as a whole.

It doesn't matter, you are worth what you convince the employer to pay you. Regardless if the market says so or not. Now if that's the free market saying what his skill is worth and him finding a job paying that much, or the cases I pointed out, that's how much you're worth at that time. Period.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:00   #57
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Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
I never disagreed with that argument, but that is not the sentence I quoted when I began this. His exact words were:




His blanket statement is simply not true, and there's no way around it. The only correct blanket statement would be "you are worth what the free market dictates your salary is worth." Exceptions to the rule are part of the free market, as are those who fall closer to the average.

Some get paid below their "market" value, some get paid more. Again, it's how well you sell yourself, not just your skill you have.

So I'll say it again.

You are only worth what you've convinced your employer to pay you.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:05   #58
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If you've got the capital, you've got the advantage to change a lot and build an uneven playing field.

Sorry, but most poor people make poor choices. That's why they're poor, not because they started out with nothing. That's the most absurd thing I've heard all month from GT by you saying otherwise.

I started out with nothing, and my networth has grown greatly. I achieved this by underconsuming, while sacrificing some of my teenage years into acquiring a valuable skill, then turning that extra money and buying other things that give me return on my investment. IE a house, high dividend stock, etc. etc.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:06   #59
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If you've got the capital, you've got the advantage to change a lot and build an uneven playing field.
How did you get the capital?

You have the same opportunity to get the capital and build your own playing field.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:10   #60
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If you are working a minimum wage job, you earned that. The owner earned what he has. Not every business owner was born with a silver spoon and most have made sacrifices of their own to get to where they are financially.

Nobody owes you anything. You are where you're at because of choices that you made from the time you attended high school up until today. Life isn't fair, boo hoo. Tell someone with terminal cancer that life isn't fair because you have to work two minimum wage jobs. You built the foundation that your life rests on. If you aren't happy with what you have, what are you going to do to change that? Stop acting like somebody owes you more and consider yourself lucky that you weren't born in China, or worse.

Every time I think I have it bad, I remind myself that I'm above ground and free to change my life, and that I wouldn't have a job if it weren't for problems to solve and needs to fulfill.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:13   #61
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Sorry, but most poor people make poor choices. That's why they're poor, not because they started out with nothing. That's the most absurd thing I've heard all month from GT by you saying otherwise.

I started out with nothing, and my networth has grown greatly. I achieved this by underconsuming, while sacrificing some of my teenage years into acquiring a valuable skill, then turning that extra money and buying other things that give me return on my investment. IE a house, high dividend stock, etc. etc.
Hmmm. you and I are more alike than I thought
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:17   #62
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If you are working a minimum wage job, you earned that. The owner earned what he has. Not every business owner was born with a silver spoon and most have made sacrifices of their own to get to where they are financially.

Nobody owes you anything. You are where you're at because of choices that you made from the time you attended high school up until today. Life isn't fair, boo hoo. Tell someone with terminal cancer that life isn't fair because you have to work two minimum wage jobs. You built the foundation that your life rests on. If you aren't happy with what you have, what are you going to do to change that? Stop acting like somebody owes you more and consider yourself lucky that you weren't born in China, or worse.

Every time I think I have it bad, I remind myself that I'm above ground and free to change my life, and that I wouldn't have a job if it weren't for problems to solve and needs to fulfill.
The owner of the business I'm current employed by started out at the bottom, learned a trade, employed that trade, and started his own business. It's gotten him a lot of perks, and many more headaches. He's been at the bottom, and now at the top, and makes quite a chunk of change these days.

It's not the path for me, I tried my own business, and I suck at being a business man because you have to compromise too much. I'm not willing to do that.

I work my skills for the highest bidder, and best attributes the company has. And yes, I had to convince some I was worth much more than they wanted to pay me, then I proved I was worth every penny and more.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 10-10-2012, 17:19   #63
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Hmmm. you and I are more alike than I thought

I'm for keeping the gov't out of the private individual's life, in probably 99% of issues. So yes, when it comes to economics, if you're for little gov't intervention, then we will probably be agreeing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:22   #64
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I'm for keeping the gov't out of the private individual's life, in probably 99% of issues. So yes, when it comes to economics, if you're for little gov't intervention, then we will probably be agreeing.
I retired at 50 pretty darned well set up and I did it without one bit of Government help and I didn't borrow money to do it. You can probably guess how I feel about GVT meddling in business and the subtle socialism being foisted off as "fairness".
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:31   #65
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The owner of the business I'm current employed by started out at the bottom, learned a trade, employed that trade, and started his own business. It's gotten him a lot of perks, and many more headaches. He's been at the bottom, and now at the top, and makes quite a chunk of change these days.

It's not the path for me, I tried my own business, and I suck at being a business man because you have to compromise too much. I'm not willing to do that.
I also tried starting my own business once. I didn't stop because of lack of results, I quit it and got a regular job because I wasn't willing to sacrifice my family life to live the life of an entrepreneur in the IT field. Most highly successful business owners had to sacrifice a lot to get there, including their families if they had one.

I wish I could remember the name of the book, but when I was deciding between starting another business or staying put as an employee, I read a book that outlined what the richest of the rich have to do and sacrifice to be successful. Thats what helped me to make the choice to remain an employee. Most of us don't have what it takes to get there, but some delude themselves into thinking that they deserve that.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:32   #66
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Not if we toss your people out on their collective asses ! ...

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Old 10-10-2012, 17:34   #67
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I retired at 50 pretty darned well set up and I did it without one bit of Government help and I didn't borrow money to do it. You can probably guess how I feel about GVT meddling in business and the subtle socialism being foisted off as "fairness".

Yep. 99% of the time when you have the gov't do something, all it leaves is a bunch of red tape, bureaucracy, and corruption. Much more efficient to leave choices up to individuals, and as long as their actions are not carrying a victim, let them experience their own personal consequences (both good and bad consequences) from their actions.

I'm sure you, as well as I have lost money due personal mistakes, and we didn't need the gov't to step into our lives and tell us "NO!" We learned from our mistakes, and will continue to do so until the day we die.

People shouldn't be punished from other's mistakes is the bottom line, and it seems Guss has a hard time understanding that.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:50   #68
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Stick to your day job, your attempt at comedy is pathetic.

I'm not whining about what I get paid becuase I think its fair. And FYI, I am studying to gain more I.T. certifications so that I can continue to progress in my career field. I'm simply pointing out that employers don't owe employees anything, and that unions are part of the problem causing lost jobs.

The union forklift driver? Her employer does pay her what she's worth, as in nothing. She lost her job. I was watching a show (think it was 60 Minutes) about the economy and what people are having to do to get by after losing their job. One of the people interviewed was a lady that lost a $92,000 a year job as a union forklift driver. I have met people who made inflated wages and were members of the UAW union, only to lose their job and become hairstylists. Anything inflated must eventually bust or have a correction which is the case with sending jobs overseas to avoid unions or closing plants because you can't sustain a profit with rising costs including union pay scales.
Simple math..........

$92,000.00/2,080hrs = $44.23/hour.

Gee, do you really think someone would pay a fork lift driver $44.23/hr?

I don't.

I talked to a Union fork lift driver today and he said he made $18.xx/hr.

Something doesn't add up with your story.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:52   #69
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I retired at 50 pretty darned well set up and I did it without one bit of Government help and I didn't borrow money to do it. You can probably guess how I feel about GVT meddling in business and the subtle socialism being foisted off as "fairness".
Public or private sector?
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:53   #70
Chesafreak
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Simple math..........

$92,000.00/2,080hrs = $44.23/hour.

Gee, do you really think someone would pay a fork lift driver $44.23/hr?

I don't.

I talked to a Union fork lift driver today and he said he made $18.xx/hr.

Something doesn't add up with your story.
I don't really care if you believe it, I saw it on TV. If it's a lie, then that lady lied the whole world. Besides, you only talked to 1 forklift driver. I'm sure that there are many more out there who get paid more or less. Obviously, her inflated pay was the reason why she no longer has a job

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

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Old 10-10-2012, 18:15   #71
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Public or private sector?
I got out of Law Enforcement when I was 24 and never took public sector dime after that

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Old 10-10-2012, 18:31   #72
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How did you get the capital?

You have the same opportunity to get the capital and build your own playing field.
Unfortunately I didn't choose George Romney as my father.
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:35   #73
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Sorry, but most poor people make poor choices. That's why they're poor, not because they started out with nothing. ...
I know most people make poor choices. That's why we have a Social Security program to make sure they save for their old age.
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:41   #74
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Unfortunately I didn't choose George Romney as my father.

Well then you have to start up like I did.

this is really what it comes down to for you isn't it?

You are jealous and butt-hurt. Somebody else was born better off than you. That is the whole core of your gripe.

Envy

Well WAAAAAHHHHHH

Now go away
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:00   #75
OctoberRust
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I know most people make poor choices. That's why we have a Social Security program to make sure they save for their old age.

Social Security is unsustainable, largely because those who contribute, take more than they give. It's a socialist scheme that takes from more successful, and gives to the irresponsible, for a vote.

if you're irresponsible, you should accept the consequences for your actions, and not steal from others asking the gov't to help you.
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