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Old 10-10-2012, 14:53   #41
Guss
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Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
Why trade tariffs? What do you have against getting a cheaper, more efficient product?

You have to ask yourself why that product is cheaper than what can be produced here, since after all, a lot of these imports aren't near us geographically. So they have to factor in logistics as well.

...

So why they can produce a cheaper and possibly more efficient product than something domestically, a lot of times, is because of that little thing called minimum wage we just discussed...
As a matter of fact, I can answer that question for you. But first, let me call attention to the fact that yours is the Race-To-The-Bottom argument. Maybe you aspire to giving your children and grandchildren the lifestyle of the Chinese, but I want something better for them.

Yes, the Chinese have cheaper labor. If we make a wiser choice, we can see that a country's wealth and prosperity is a ratio of its resources to its people. Many, if not most, of the countries of the world have ruined that ratio through overpopulation - too many people per resources. The elimination of tariffs means that we have lost control of what is ours as a country. We sold out to the international corporations and set our laws to what they wanted. Look back to the way our country grew and prospered in its early days - import tariffs. Look back to the 1950's when a man, without his wife working, could afford a home and raise a family - import tariffs. But we were tempted by the initial cheapness of a change and forgot about the long-term consequences. Now we pay the price.

Last edited by Guss; 10-10-2012 at 14:53.. Reason: sloppy wording
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:08   #42
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There are exceptions to every rule, however, looked at in its entirety, every field will have an average pay that balances out. While it may make for an interesting anecdotal tidbit in casual conversation to point out that you know a receptionist that makes 80K, it is not indicative of the average salary paid in the field, nor is it representative of what the free market demands in that field. An average receptionist can "convince" all they want, they aren't going to receive an 80k salary when the field is examined as a whole.
If a receptionist can convince you that they are worth 80k/yr salary, then they certainly aren't "average".

How about a prospective employee that interviews and has the same skill levels as another prospect yet they get hired with a higher salary than average because of their people skills during the interview? Still think its not possible to convince someone they you are worth more than the average? Whether through looks, sex, social skills, knowledge, or productivity, people can convince an employer that they are worth more than average.

When I interviewed for my current job, after the second interview I was told that I would have to come back for a third interview with the Director of Administration. I flat out told them that as much as I want the job, I already had a job offer and a plane ticket to leave for LG Electronics headquarters to start work the following week and explained why I wanted to stay here and work for them instead. I also said I wouldn't take the job for what they were offering and asked for 5k more. I got the job on the spot. A year later and they created a new position for me with even higher pay after I demonstrated that I could do the job of an engineer that they typically had to bring in a consultant to handle.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 15:10..
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:21   #43
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If a receptionist can convince you that they are worth 80k/yr salary, then they certainly aren't "average".
That is correct, and that is the point I was making. The larger point is that it wouldn't matter how "convincing" they were, most employers are not going to pay their receptionist that kind of money, either because they can't afford to, or someone else just as qualified would do an equally good job for a much lower wage. Hence, why the average salary for a receptionist is much lower than 80k. The free market has dictated this.

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Still think its not possible to convince someone they you are worth more than the average?
I have never said that it's not possible, I said that the free market cannot, and will not, sustain an entire workforce of receptionist making 80k a year.

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I also said I wouldn't take the job for what they were offering and asked for 5k more. I got the job on the spot. A year later and they created a new position for me with even higher pay after I demonstrated that I could do the job of an engineer that they typically had to bring in a consultant to handle.
Congrats, you took a chance and it paid off, but it doesn't change anything I have stated above.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:28   #44
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That is correct, and that is the point I was making. The larger point is that it wouldn't matter how "convincing" they were, most employers are not going to pay their receptionist that kind of money, either because they can't afford to, or someone else just as qualified would do an equally good job for a much lower wage. Hence, why the average salary for a receptionist is much lower than 80k. The free market has dictated this.



I have never said that it's not possible, I said that the free market cannot, and will not, sustain an entire workforce of receptionist making 80k a year.



Congrats, you took a chance and it paid off, but it doesn't change anything I have stated above.

You started talking about "average" and "entire workforce" when the original argument was that its not possible to convince an employer to pay you more than the average market pay. Anyone who can do that is not average.

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Not true, you are paid what the free market, competition driven economy dictates (the way it should be), it has nothing to do with convincing anybody of anything.

Last edited by Chesafreak; 10-10-2012 at 16:19..
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:45   #45
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As a matter of fact, I can answer that question for you. But first, let me call attention to the fact that yours is the Race-To-The-Bottom argument. Maybe you aspire to giving your children and grandchildren the lifestyle of the Chinese, but I want something better for them.

Yes, the Chinese have cheaper labor. If we make a wiser choice, we can see that a country's wealth and prosperity is a ratio of its resources to its people. Many, if not most, of the countries of the world have ruined that ratio through overpopulation - too many people per resources. The elimination of tariffs means that we have lost control of what is ours as a country. We sold out to the international corporations and set our laws to what they wanted. Look back to the way our country grew and prospered in its early days - import tariffs. Look back to the 1950's when a man, without his wife working, could afford a home and raise a family - import tariffs. But we were tempted by the initial cheapness of a change and forgot about the long-term consequences. Now we pay the price.
That is the most confused jumble of economic ideas I have heard in a long time and comes down, as near as I can clear the mud off of it to "the Government should mandate the level of living and control the free market"

If workers in another Country can make a coffee cup to be sold, at a profit for everyone involved, to Americans for $2 what benefit is it to demand the cup be made in America at a cost of $10? The plumber, the dentis, whomever, has to get paid more for their work to buy a coffee cup, so their services cost more, so the guy making the coffe cup has to get paid more to afford their services, and 'round and round it goes. If we say "we don't want people in this Country to try and get by on what they make producing $2 coffee cups, they must be paid more" then we had better be prepared to get our cups elsewhere.

There has to be a bottom rung on the ladder, if we don't want that rung occupied by Americans then we had better have it occupied by the bottom rung of other Countries.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:54   #46
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Those restaurant laborers work hard, and I want to see them get paid for what they worked so hard and sacrificed for. There is no inherent fairness in the system unless management and labor have equal bargaining power. In the absence of that equal bargaining power, minimum wages are a good substitute.
there you go, LIFE ISN'T FAIR!

why equal share? the worker invested nothing nor did they take a risk...
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:06   #47
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That is the most confused jumble of economic ideas I have heard in a long time and comes down, as near as I can clear the mud off of it to "the Government should mandate the level of living and control the free market"

If workers in another Country can make a coffee cup to be sold, at a profit for everyone involved, to Americans for $2 what benefit is it to demand the cup be made in America at a cost of $10? The plumber, the dentis, whomever, has to get paid more for their work to buy a coffee cup, so their services cost more, so the guy making the coffe cup has to get paid more to afford their services, and 'round and round it goes. If we say "we don't want people in this Country to try and get by on what they make producing $2 coffee cups, they must be paid more" then we had better be prepared to get our cups elsewhere.

There has to be a bottom rung on the ladder, if we don't want that rung occupied by Americans then we had better have it occupied by the bottom rung of other Countries.
If a country has a natural advantage (coffee doesn't grow as well here), then the tariff is adjusted accordingly, since we are not really stealing any jobs from Americans.

As to rungs on the ladder, those one the top rung want to eliminate all the other rungs to their own benefit. Even those on the bottom rung deserve a living wage.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:07   #48
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there you go, LIFE ISN'T FAIR!

why equal share? the worker invested nothing nor did they take a risk...
There is nothing in the raw system that bespeaks fairness. It is simply the way things happen to be under the capitalist system. If any element of fairness is to be brought in, it must be done by humans, not a mindless system.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:09   #49
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If you ever had to sweat your tail off working two jobs because one minimum wage job wasn't enough, you would know.
Problem is people get emotional instead of logical and they confuse effort and value. The guy digging a ditch is putting a lot more effort into their 8 hours than I am but I provide more value to my employer and they compensate me for that value I bring them. It is just easier to find another guy to dig a ditch. It is easier to replace me then it is to find a guy that can win the triple crown in baseball so he makes more than I do. etc... Make yourself as valuable as you can be. I can not win the triple crown so it is not on my list of goals to become more valuable.

In the end the restaurant is doing it because they can. They are telling the employees they are going to cut the money they bring home and are willing to accept that some many or all of them will leave and the restaurant can and will replace them. If Darden did not think they could and carry on they would not do it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:18   #50
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You can't blame Obama for that - Greedy employers have been using that strategy for many years now to cut not only heath benefits, but other benefits as well. Eventually we'll close the loopholes.
True, the whole democrat party shares that responsibility. Look at it this way, employers are just passing on what the democrat party has delivered to them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:18   #51
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There is nothing in the raw system that bespeaks fairness. It is simply the way things happen to be under the capitalist system. If any element of fairness is to be brought in, it must be done by humans, not a mindless system.

Boo-hoo, capitalism isn't fair

Neither is the fact that you have the right to "The pursuit of happiness"

but those mean old Founders didn't promise the happiness.

Every system is unfair to SOMEONE, but in our system you have the freedom to change whether it's you or not.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:19   #52
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There is nothing in the raw system that bespeaks fairness. It is simply the way things happen to be under the capitalist system. If any element of fairness is to be brought in, it must be done by humans, not a mindless system.
Communism would be much fairer right?
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:48   #53
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Communism would be much fairer right?
I don't know. We've never seen a democratic communism.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:49   #54
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You started talking about "average" and "entire workforce" when the original argument was that its not possible to convince an employer to pay you more than the average market pay. Anyone who can do that is not average.
I never disagreed with that argument, but that is not the sentence I quoted when I began this. His exact words were:


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One more thing to add to everyone in this thread.


You are worth what you can convince your employer to pay you. Not a penny less, or a penny more.
His blanket statement is simply not true, and there's no way around it. The only correct blanket statement would be "you are worth what the free market dictates your salary is worth." Exceptions to the rule are part of the free market, as are those who fall closer to the average.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:53   #55
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...
Every system is unfair to SOMEONE, but in our system you have the freedom to change whether it's you or not.
If you've got the capital, you've got the advantage to change a lot and build an uneven playing field.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:57   #56
OctoberRust
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Some things are so basic most rational Americans can agree on them.
Haha indeed.

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There are exceptions to every rule, however, looked at in its entirety, every field will have an average pay that balances out. While it may make for an interesting anecdotal tidbit in casual conversation to point out that you know a receptionist that makes 80K, it is not indicative of the average salary paid in the field, nor is it representative of what the free market demands in that field. An average receptionist can "convince" all they want, they aren't going to receive an 80k salary when the field is examined as a whole.

It doesn't matter, you are worth what you convince the employer to pay you. Regardless if the market says so or not. Now if that's the free market saying what his skill is worth and him finding a job paying that much, or the cases I pointed out, that's how much you're worth at that time. Period.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:00   #57
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I never disagreed with that argument, but that is not the sentence I quoted when I began this. His exact words were:




His blanket statement is simply not true, and there's no way around it. The only correct blanket statement would be "you are worth what the free market dictates your salary is worth." Exceptions to the rule are part of the free market, as are those who fall closer to the average.

Some get paid below their "market" value, some get paid more. Again, it's how well you sell yourself, not just your skill you have.

So I'll say it again.

You are only worth what you've convinced your employer to pay you.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:05   #58
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If you've got the capital, you've got the advantage to change a lot and build an uneven playing field.

Sorry, but most poor people make poor choices. That's why they're poor, not because they started out with nothing. That's the most absurd thing I've heard all month from GT by you saying otherwise.

I started out with nothing, and my networth has grown greatly. I achieved this by underconsuming, while sacrificing some of my teenage years into acquiring a valuable skill, then turning that extra money and buying other things that give me return on my investment. IE a house, high dividend stock, etc. etc.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:06   #59
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If you've got the capital, you've got the advantage to change a lot and build an uneven playing field.
How did you get the capital?

You have the same opportunity to get the capital and build your own playing field.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:10   #60
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If you are working a minimum wage job, you earned that. The owner earned what he has. Not every business owner was born with a silver spoon and most have made sacrifices of their own to get to where they are financially.

Nobody owes you anything. You are where you're at because of choices that you made from the time you attended high school up until today. Life isn't fair, boo hoo. Tell someone with terminal cancer that life isn't fair because you have to work two minimum wage jobs. You built the foundation that your life rests on. If you aren't happy with what you have, what are you going to do to change that? Stop acting like somebody owes you more and consider yourself lucky that you weren't born in China, or worse.

Every time I think I have it bad, I remind myself that I'm above ground and free to change my life, and that I wouldn't have a job if it weren't for problems to solve and needs to fulfill.
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