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Old 10-12-2012, 14:51   #1
ilgunguygt
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Is this sale legal?

I have a question for the GT braintrust. I am currently selling a rifle. A person responded to my armslist ad and wants to buy it. I live in IL and so does this other person. He actually lives about 4 hours north of me, up by Chicago.

We agreed to a price, and then he asked me "Hey, I have a friend thats going to be in (insert name of town just down the road from me) on Sunday and Monday, do you think you could meet him there and have him pick it up for me?"

Now, the only IL state law regarding this type of personal sale is that you must keep a record of the transaction, including FOID(communist card) card number for 10 years along with serial numbers. That being said, the guy that would be paying me isnt the ultiimate buyer. If I were an FFL I would say STRAW PURCHASE!!! I am not an FFL though, I dont know if its legit or not.

Is it legal? Should I insist on both of thier information for the legal requirements, or just the guy picking it up?

Please help.
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Old 10-12-2012, 14:56   #2
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Had that happen to me recently, I told the guy that his friend would have to buy it, after showing me his valid drivers license, and valid carry permit(the friends). The receipt/paperwork between us, would be in his friends name, as that is who it picking up/taking possession. His friend could then sell it to him. I never heard back from the guy...
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Old 10-12-2012, 15:51   #3
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your in IL so thats a whole nuther ball of wax but I was in the middle of purchasing a rifle the guy had it on consignment at a local gun store. I met him and gave half down. Not sure of the exact days but I had to go out of town for the weekend and when he got the gun a friend of mine went and met him and paid off the rest and got my gun. Sometimes people read way to much into things.
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Old 10-12-2012, 16:56   #4
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I only do FFL transfers with strangers. No exceptions

Last edited by eb07; 10-12-2012 at 16:56..
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Old 10-12-2012, 17:03   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilgunguygt View Post
I have a question for the GT braintrust. I am currently selling a rifle. A person responded to my armslist ad and wants to buy it. I live in IL and so does this other person. He actually lives about 4 hours north of me, up by Chicago.

We agreed to a price, and then he asked me "Hey, I have a friend thats going to be in (insert name of town just down the road from me) on Sunday and Monday, do you think you could meet him there and have him pick it up for me?"

Now, the only IL state law regarding this type of personal sale is that you must keep a record of the transaction, including FOID(communist card) card number for 10 years along with serial numbers. That being said, the guy that would be paying me isnt the ultiimate buyer. If I were an FFL I would say STRAW PURCHASE!!! I am not an FFL though, I dont know if its legit or not.

Is it legal? Should I insist on both of thier information for the legal requirements, or just the guy picking it up?

Please help.

Does the friend have a FOID card? If so, why not just sell to him and have him sell it to his friend.
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Old 10-12-2012, 17:09   #6
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Why not mail the purchaser the rifle? Yes, that's perfectly legal with in-state residents non-FFL.

To appease yourself, get him to take a pic of his driver's license and FOID and email it to you. Mail the rifle to the address on the driver's license.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:48   #7
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FOID cards are so strange. I have a friend in Iowa, and they have permission to purchase cards.... There are some wacked out rules in this country.

Last edited by Fredder; 10-13-2012 at 08:53..
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:56   #8
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If your interested I have a guy in Lake Villa that charges $25 for FFL transfer if you decide to go that route.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:27   #9
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Originally Posted by brianfede View Post
Does the friend have a FOID card? If so, why not just sell to him and have him sell it to his friend.

Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:31   #10
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.
+1, sounds like a law enforcement bait
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He's actually wrong, after 8-9 shots with a 9mm bullet, you actually get a text on your phone saying "You are being shot at by a 9mm, don't worry, just ignore him and walk away."
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:48   #11
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Man, I'm glad I live in Texas. I've bought 2 rifles and a handgun at garage sales.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:50   #12
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Man, I'm glad I live in Texas. I've bought 2 rifles and a handgun at garage sales.
but the point is "you" bought them, you didn't send your friend to buy the guns for you
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Originally Posted by oISHUTupNrocKIo View Post
He's actually wrong, after 8-9 shots with a 9mm bullet, you actually get a text on your phone saying "You are being shot at by a 9mm, don't worry, just ignore him and walk away."
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:00   #13
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+1, sounds like a law enforcement bait
This.

I sure as hell wouldn't stick my neck out like this, just to make it 'easy' for the buyer to get you into a FEDERAL PRISON.

Walk, or run, away.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:06   #14
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I thought straw purchases only mattered if it was from an FFL?
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:09   #15
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Balls, meet chopping block? No way, dude.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:17   #16
brianfede
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Isn't -

Selling a gun to a person that is really just buying it for someone else --

the definition of a straw purchase?

IIRC - it does not matter if the "true" buyer is legal to buy the gun - it is STILL illegal - because it is in fact a straw purchase.
Sir,

I think you are correct and I am wrong now that I think about it. More and more seems like the FFL is the way to go if the original buyer can't pick up. Just not worth guessing whether something is legal or not. You know FTF with FOID or via FFL transfer is legal, stick with those 2 options.
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Last edited by brianfede; 10-13-2012 at 11:18..
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:18   #17
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Man, I'm glad I live in Texas. I've bought 2 rifles and a handgun at garage sales.
Same for Kansas. In the last 10 years I have purchased exactly one firearm from an ffl. Just too easy to get what I want privately and not hassle with those damn forms.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:30   #18
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Hmm, apparently a personal straw purchase isn't illegal per-say, and the cops likely won't take a second look if it's done once. http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=319

Quote:
Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a “straw purchase.”
http://grandpasarms.com/home/about/

However, I wouldn't risk it. Tell the guy you'd be more than happy to sell it to his friend, as long as his friend is legally allowed to own a firearm. If his friend is legally allowed to buy a firearm, and he is legally allowed to buy a firearm, then it shouldn't be a straw purchase.

But if you're asking me what I would do, I'd tell the guy I'll sell it only to him, in a face to face transaction, and I won't sell it to him and let his buddy be the courier.

Illinois is such an anti-gun state, I wouldn't even dare to toe the line there, because it's going to piss somebody off, and then they'll most likely try to make an example out of you, or something stupid like that.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:35   #19
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Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.


Quote:
18 U.S.C. §§ 922(a)(6)
(a) It shall be unlawful-

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

Quote:
18 U.S.C. §§ 922(d)

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

Last edited by ray9898; 10-13-2012 at 11:42..
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:38   #20
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Originally Posted by brianfede View Post
Sir,

I think you are correct and I am wrong now that I think about it. More and more seems like the FFL is the way to go if the original buyer can't pick up. Just not worth guessing whether something is legal or not. You know FTF with FOID or via FFL transfer is legal, stick with those 2 options.
Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale.

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.

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Old 10-13-2012, 11:53   #21
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Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.
Interesting - I did not know that

I guess this is the "Straw man loop hole"
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Old 10-13-2012, 13:16   #22
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Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Lots of bad advice on here. A straw purchase under federal law only pertains to FFL's. The only criteria for a private sale is to not knowingly transfer a gun to a prohibited person.

Were it any other state, I'd agree with you. But as we're talking IL, particularly the Chicago region, I'm sure there are several over layers of laws to deal with. I'd say in person or not at all in this case. Now, if this was in a free state like IN, then I'd say to ahead and make the deal, but IL is just too much of a nightmare.

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Old 10-13-2012, 13:38   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Now I am past the point of ridiculous - but just for discussion purposes -

Let's say Mr XYZ calls you and wants to buy your gun - you agree on a price - he lives in your state - but a few hundred miles away --

Then Mr XYZ calls and says his friend Mr Strawman will be a few miles from you - can he just stop by and pick up he gun.

You don't want to break any laws - so decide to use a FFL holder to do the transfer -

Mr Strawman buys the gun - fills out the 4473 and --

You just committed a felony because you were involved in a straw man sale.

The FFL holder being involved does not make an illegal transfer legal.


I have to disagree on this one. If Mr. Strawman claims on the 4473 that he is the purchaser, and passes the required checks, you sold the gun to Mr. Strawman, not his friend. You have no control over what he does with the gun, and you have no knowledge of whether or not he may keep the gun for himself. The 4473 pretty much puts the onus on Mr. Strawman, at least in my personal opinion.

If you want a legal opinion, you need to have a lawyer research the decisional law for you, or do it yourself...
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Old 10-13-2012, 13:42   #24
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I had some strange request when selling a gun on Armslist.
I am in NC and some guy wanted to buy a gun from me in WI. He wanted me to give the gun to a "friend" of his in NC.
I did not reply to his email.

I think it was local LE trying to set me up. Selling one gun is not worth a federal or State firearms charge. Why not just ship it to a FFL in his city. Shipping may cost $20 to make it a legal sale.

If your gut tells you not to do it, then don't.
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Old 10-13-2012, 14:00   #25
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You won't lose anything by passing on the sale, assuming you were offered fair market value.

I would pass.
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