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Old 10-27-2012, 15:15   #1
DEE50
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CCW Questions

Hello Gentlemen,

I am wondering if anyone knows what the legal circumstances are in which a CCW carrying civillian can defend his or her self or others against an unarmed attacker in the state of MO.
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Old 10-27-2012, 15:43   #2
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This took me about 5 seconds to find................

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/missouri.pdf

In most all cases it will be the facts of a case and how the DA sees things that will tell the tell.
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Old 10-27-2012, 16:18   #3
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Disparity of Force:
Mas talks about it starting at the 4:00 mark
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Old 10-27-2012, 16:23   #4
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Actual Law

I suggest you start here. This is the actual law effective on 28 Aug 12 but was not posted on the mo.gov website until a couple of weeks ago. http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm

Last edited by oldsoldier; 10-27-2012 at 16:54..
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:03   #5
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Many folks carry inexpensive liability insurance,,,just in case. I can't afford a topnotch attorney if I'm sued. Since I travel to many states that accept my Texas CHL, I have insurance.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:45   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
Disparity of Force:
Mas talks about it starting at the 4:00 mark
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [2] - YouTube
Massad missed a few things here in his discussion of disparity of force. Suppose the victim is wheelchair bound? Or on crutches? Or elderly? Or is clearly handicapped or restricted in his movement? In any of these cases, one on one goes out the window since the victim would obviously be a clear and true disparity of force victim.

As an example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and just had a total knee replacement 3 1/2 weeks ago. I would be no match for some gansta wannbe who decided to take advantage of my condition. It would be insane to expect me to roll over, take a beating, or worse, before resorting to my sidearm in an extreme encounter.

Mas should have covered this issue in my opinion.
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Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 10-28-2012 at 06:48..
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:52   #7
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So if you just silently mind your business and someone who is physically stronger than you decides to attack you, you must first let him pummel you?
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:19   #8
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At the beginning of "taking a beating" how does one know they will survive, that the person assaulting them will stop or will even know when to stop short of death?
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:19   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Massad missed a few things here in his discussion of disparity of force. Suppose the victim is wheelchair bound? Or on crutches? Or elderly? Or is clearly handicapped or restricted in his movement? In any of these cases, one on one goes out the window since the victim would obviously be a clear and true disparity of force victim.

As an example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and just had a total knee replacement 3 1/2 weeks ago. I would be no match for some gansta wannbe who decided to take advantage of my condition. It would be insane to expect me to roll over, take a beating, or worse, before resorting to my sidearm in an extreme encounter.

Mas should have covered this issue in my opinion.
He does, later in the class. A little of that is on another video.
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"Know where the attack against you is likely to come, whether on the street or in court, and have a proven counter already in place" (Mas Ayoob)
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:52   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinytop View Post
At the beginning of "taking a beating" how does one know they will survive, that the person assaulting them will stop or will even know when to stop short of death?
The distance of time between someone yelling threats and advancing toward their victim between the time that they could be upon them hitting or choking them could be acouple of seconds..
If there is an immediate threat is there really no legal time where a law abiding citizen can display their weapon prior to being beaten and disfigured against a single unarmed attacker?

Last edited by DEE50; 10-28-2012 at 12:53..
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Old 10-28-2012, 14:00   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Massad missed a few things here in his discussion of disparity of force. Suppose the victim is wheelchair bound? Or on crutches? Or elderly? Or is clearly handicapped or restricted in his movement? In any of these cases, one on one goes out the window since the victim would obviously be a clear and true disparity of force victim.

As an example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and just had a total knee replacement 3 1/2 weeks ago. I would be no match for some gansta wannbe who decided to take advantage of my condition. It would be insane to expect me to roll over, take a beating, or worse, before resorting to my sidearm in an extreme encounter.

Mas should have covered this issue in my opinion.
I have a damaged sciatic nerve in my right leg. I can stand and walk, but running is very hard to do. My G17 would replace any running.
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Old 10-28-2012, 15:27   #12
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If he begins to pummel you, pummel him back.
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Old 10-28-2012, 15:49   #13
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If he begins to pummel you, pummel him back.
I'll pummel him with bullets.
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:02   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
He does, later in the class. A little of that is on another video.
Thank you for this clarification.
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In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:09   #15
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As a civilian I have to meet force with equal force. I cannot present my killing machine from holster, point in, and threaten a big bad unarmed Obama voter just because he scares me.
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:15   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEE50 View Post
So if you just silently mind your business and someone who is physically stronger than you decides to attack you, you must first let him pummel you?
Exactly. How would one know. One representative in the Washington, DC government suggested that it is better than people take a beating and get a "little hurt" then to resort to using deadly force. Clearly this man has never taken a beating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinytop View Post
At the beginning of "taking a beating" how does one know they will survive, that the person assaulting them will stop or will even know when to stop short of death?
Again, exactly correct. You would have no way of knowing and must therefore operate from the worse case scenario then work backwards from there (should always do this anyway).


Most states (perhaps all??) have something to the effect in their statutes or case law which says something along the lines of "an imminent thread of serious bodily harm". This raises the question of what exactly is meant by serious bodily harm so here are some examples;
  • Contusions.
  • Lacerations.
  • Broken bones.
  • Disfigurement.
  • Burns.
  • Temporary unconsciousness.
  • Cuts.
  • Concussion.

Now suppose you are attacked and your attacker sucker punches your face, resulting in a broken nose and cheek, and a fractured jaw. Those are broken bones. Who's to say he will stop there. Continuing to pummel your face, which has already received such damage, can quickly result in potentially very serious injury and possible death.

I know some folks who carry a strong pepper spray for one on one encounters and reserve their sidearm for multiple or armed adversaries. Maybe that's the best way to go.... I don't know.
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In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:59   #17
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You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.

Last edited by WT; 10-28-2012 at 17:02..
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:03   #18
DEE50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WT View Post
You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.
I guess you could let him put his arms around your neck and ask him not to snap it.
Or you could let him beat your face and neck area yet ask him not to break bones or cause internal bleeding.
He might stop if you were polite?

How do you know it's 99.97% and not 60-70%? Even more so without sustaining serious bodily injury.

Last edited by DEE50; 10-28-2012 at 17:07..
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:10   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WT View Post
You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.
Thanks for the link!
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:33   #20
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The other thread has the stats.

If he placed his hands around my throat I would remove them.

Broken bones heal. I've had my nose broken, several teeth knocked out, 3 ribs broken as well as a clavicle. Also my hand. My dentist and orthopedic surgeon love me. I have great health insurance.

Still better than killing him.

Last edited by WT; 10-28-2012 at 17:34..
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