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Old 10-27-2012, 15:15   #1
DEE50
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CCW Questions

Hello Gentlemen,

I am wondering if anyone knows what the legal circumstances are in which a CCW carrying civillian can defend his or her self or others against an unarmed attacker in the state of MO.
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Old 10-27-2012, 15:43   #2
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This took me about 5 seconds to find................

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/missouri.pdf

In most all cases it will be the facts of a case and how the DA sees things that will tell the tell.
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Old 10-27-2012, 16:18   #3
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Disparity of Force:
Mas talks about it starting at the 4:00 mark
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Old 10-27-2012, 16:23   #4
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Actual Law

I suggest you start here. This is the actual law effective on 28 Aug 12 but was not posted on the mo.gov website until a couple of weeks ago. http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm

Last edited by oldsoldier; 10-27-2012 at 16:54..
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:03   #5
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Many folks carry inexpensive liability insurance,,,just in case. I can't afford a topnotch attorney if I'm sued. Since I travel to many states that accept my Texas CHL, I have insurance.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:45   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
Disparity of Force:
Mas talks about it starting at the 4:00 mark
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [2] - YouTube
Massad missed a few things here in his discussion of disparity of force. Suppose the victim is wheelchair bound? Or on crutches? Or elderly? Or is clearly handicapped or restricted in his movement? In any of these cases, one on one goes out the window since the victim would obviously be a clear and true disparity of force victim.

As an example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and just had a total knee replacement 3 1/2 weeks ago. I would be no match for some gansta wannbe who decided to take advantage of my condition. It would be insane to expect me to roll over, take a beating, or worse, before resorting to my sidearm in an extreme encounter.

Mas should have covered this issue in my opinion.
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Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 10-28-2012 at 06:48..
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:52   #7
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So if you just silently mind your business and someone who is physically stronger than you decides to attack you, you must first let him pummel you?
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:19   #8
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At the beginning of "taking a beating" how does one know they will survive, that the person assaulting them will stop or will even know when to stop short of death?
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:19   #9
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Massad missed a few things here in his discussion of disparity of force. Suppose the victim is wheelchair bound? Or on crutches? Or elderly? Or is clearly handicapped or restricted in his movement? In any of these cases, one on one goes out the window since the victim would obviously be a clear and true disparity of force victim.

As an example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and just had a total knee replacement 3 1/2 weeks ago. I would be no match for some gansta wannbe who decided to take advantage of my condition. It would be insane to expect me to roll over, take a beating, or worse, before resorting to my sidearm in an extreme encounter.

Mas should have covered this issue in my opinion.
He does, later in the class. A little of that is on another video.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:52   #10
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Originally Posted by Shinytop View Post
At the beginning of "taking a beating" how does one know they will survive, that the person assaulting them will stop or will even know when to stop short of death?
The distance of time between someone yelling threats and advancing toward their victim between the time that they could be upon them hitting or choking them could be acouple of seconds..
If there is an immediate threat is there really no legal time where a law abiding citizen can display their weapon prior to being beaten and disfigured against a single unarmed attacker?

Last edited by DEE50; 10-28-2012 at 12:53..
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Old 10-28-2012, 14:00   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Massad missed a few things here in his discussion of disparity of force. Suppose the victim is wheelchair bound? Or on crutches? Or elderly? Or is clearly handicapped or restricted in his movement? In any of these cases, one on one goes out the window since the victim would obviously be a clear and true disparity of force victim.

As an example, I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and just had a total knee replacement 3 1/2 weeks ago. I would be no match for some gansta wannbe who decided to take advantage of my condition. It would be insane to expect me to roll over, take a beating, or worse, before resorting to my sidearm in an extreme encounter.

Mas should have covered this issue in my opinion.
I have a damaged sciatic nerve in my right leg. I can stand and walk, but running is very hard to do. My G17 would replace any running.
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Old 10-28-2012, 15:27   #12
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If he begins to pummel you, pummel him back.
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Old 10-28-2012, 15:49   #13
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If he begins to pummel you, pummel him back.
I'll pummel him with bullets.
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:02   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
He does, later in the class. A little of that is on another video.
Thank you for this clarification.
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In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:09   #15
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As a civilian I have to meet force with equal force. I cannot present my killing machine from holster, point in, and threaten a big bad unarmed Obama voter just because he scares me.
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:15   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEE50 View Post
So if you just silently mind your business and someone who is physically stronger than you decides to attack you, you must first let him pummel you?
Exactly. How would one know. One representative in the Washington, DC government suggested that it is better than people take a beating and get a "little hurt" then to resort to using deadly force. Clearly this man has never taken a beating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinytop View Post
At the beginning of "taking a beating" how does one know they will survive, that the person assaulting them will stop or will even know when to stop short of death?
Again, exactly correct. You would have no way of knowing and must therefore operate from the worse case scenario then work backwards from there (should always do this anyway).


Most states (perhaps all??) have something to the effect in their statutes or case law which says something along the lines of "an imminent thread of serious bodily harm". This raises the question of what exactly is meant by serious bodily harm so here are some examples;
  • Contusions.
  • Lacerations.
  • Broken bones.
  • Disfigurement.
  • Burns.
  • Temporary unconsciousness.
  • Cuts.
  • Concussion.

Now suppose you are attacked and your attacker sucker punches your face, resulting in a broken nose and cheek, and a fractured jaw. Those are broken bones. Who's to say he will stop there. Continuing to pummel your face, which has already received such damage, can quickly result in potentially very serious injury and possible death.

I know some folks who carry a strong pepper spray for one on one encounters and reserve their sidearm for multiple or armed adversaries. Maybe that's the best way to go.... I don't know.
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In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
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Old 10-28-2012, 16:59   #17
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You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.

Last edited by WT; 10-28-2012 at 17:02..
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WT View Post
You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.
I guess you could let him put his arms around your neck and ask him not to snap it.
Or you could let him beat your face and neck area yet ask him not to break bones or cause internal bleeding.
He might stop if you were polite?

How do you know it's 99.97% and not 60-70%? Even more so without sustaining serious bodily injury.

Last edited by DEE50; 10-28-2012 at 17:07..
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:10   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WT View Post
You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.
Thanks for the link!
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Old 10-28-2012, 17:33   #20
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The other thread has the stats.

If he placed his hands around my throat I would remove them.

Broken bones heal. I've had my nose broken, several teeth knocked out, 3 ribs broken as well as a clavicle. Also my hand. My dentist and orthopedic surgeon love me. I have great health insurance.

Still better than killing him.

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Old 10-28-2012, 17:42   #21
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Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by WT View Post
The other thread has the stats.

If he placed his hands around my throat I would remove them.

Broken bones heal. I've had my nose broken, several teeth knocked out, 3 ribs broken as well as a clavicle. Also my hand. My dentist and orthopedic surgeon love me. I have great health insurance.

Still better than killing him.
Any blow to the head can be fatal. I'd shoot to avoid a blow to my head.
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Old 10-28-2012, 19:07   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Any blow to the head can be fatal. I'd shoot to avoid a blow to my head.
But would you be put in prison and throw away the key?
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Old 10-28-2012, 19:59   #23
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Any blow to the head can be fatal. I'd shoot to avoid a blow to my head.
And any drive in the car can be fatal. I'll still be driving to work tomorrow morning.

There's a reason Mas and others study hand to hand martial arts.
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Old 10-28-2012, 20:14   #24
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And any drive in the car can be fatal. I'll still be driving to work tomorrow morning.

There's a reason Mas and others study hand to hand martial arts.
But you will be wearing your seatbelt no doubt.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:38   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WT View Post
You have a 99.97% chance of surviving a beating.

We're beginning to duplicate another thread.

Looky here.


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1419651

PS: Yes, it is better to take a little beat down than to kill somebody.
LOTS of good information in that thread (which is why it is a sticky). The OP should have read it, but I kinda doubt they did prior to posting the question. So, to make sure that people get yet another chance to get some excellent information on the issue from some people that know first-hand what they are talking about...here is Sam Spade's opening post of the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
A recurring theme on the board is shooting in response to an unarmed attack. Though I don't know every poster's background, some of the undercurrents concern me. So, this post on the basics involved. The material in it is drawn primarily from Ayoob's course on the judicious use of deadly force (by permission) and my work in LE covering use of force.

First, the justification for the use of deadly force. It has to be based on a reasonable fear for your life. That means that you have to be able to articulate that your opponent has the means, the opportunity and the intent to kill you or do great bodily injury. (Some refer to ability, opportunity and jeopardy. I think the way I was originally taught is clearer.)

Opportunity is the delivery system--can he make good on his desire. Talking about unarmed assailants, that means that they have to be close, and not on the other side of a locked door or 8' chain link fence. Close doesn't mean touching, but in practical terms, it likely will. You should consider the practicality of your method of carry and your ability to present and employ the firearm at those tight distances. It's highly likely that you're going to have to fight your way to the gun.

Intent talks to the actual plan of the opponent. You don't have to be a mind-reader, but you do have to be able to articulate what made you believe that a potentially lethal assault was about to be delivered. Documentable knowledge about pre-assault clues is a plus here.

Means refers to the method of delivering lethal or near-lethal force. I saved this for last, because it's where the issue arises when talking about an unarmed adversary. The totality of the circumstances matter, but you need to describe some disparity of force between you and the other guy. When we're talking average guy against average guy, you're going to have a very hard time explaining that he was a lethal threat. Why? The DoJ figures have some 2.4 million simple assaults occuring every year. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf That's obviously a lot. But when we look to homicides, there were only 745 as a result of beatings in 2010. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...10shrtbl08.xls It's on you to explain how that 0.31% ratio rises to a reasonable fear in your case.

So you need a disparity in force that you're using the gun to equalize. That can be petite woman vs. monster man, it can be arthritic gandparent vs young banger, it can be a significant disparity of numbers. Or it can be a disparity as a result of situation--you're down and can't get up, you're hit and feel yourself blacking out. Ayoob, who should know, says that there isn't any large body of research on what match-ups are "fair" and which support the use of deadly force. My own student shot in a 3:1 situation after taking blows to the head and was prosecuted vigorously (2 trials, both that ended in hung juries. No conviction, but more than one juror wanted to send him to prison.)

This all comes back to the reasonable fear that I referenced above. Not all fear is reasonable. Reasonable fear can be articulated through means, opportunity and intent as described. Terror, or naked fear, or unreasonble fear doesn't make the grade. If you're relying on stories of one-punch deaths to justify your actions, you've got to overcome that 745:2,400,000 ratio, and you have to deal with the mind of every juror that's been in schoolyard fight or seen a boxing match. Naked fear is that "well, it could happen" thing; you have to avoid it. Reasonable fear is "it's happening now, and I know why".

Anyway, I hope this sparks research and consideration. Please let me know if I've been unclear on anything.
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Carolina Glocker No. 1431
"Freedom is a system based on courage" (Charles Peguy)
"Know where the attack against you is likely to come, whether on the street or in court, and have a proven counter already in place" (Mas Ayoob)
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