GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2012, 21:46   #1
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
Best national match AR for a newbie

Looking to spend $1500 max on a national match AR-15. I'm a dumb newbie, never shot one of these matches, and never owned an AR, and have only shot 2 recently. Strongly prefered the rifle over the carbine, and liked the AR iron sights. What should I get?

A guy at my club has competed at Camp Perry in high power, I'll check with him eventually. Not sure what he had. Just saying if I get into it, there are resources to help. He's a fellow pistol instructor, but we haven't talked rifles. I just recently got bit by the AR bug. Purchase will be with end of January tax return money. I can't wait!

The detachable handle idea makes sense to me in case I ever want to scope it. For example I might decide not to do stock service competition afterall. So this way I'd have options.

Ideally want 1 MOA or better. My Savage 10FP bolt .308 gives me 3/4" groups at 100 yards from casually resting at the bench (trying hard, but not fancy, just laying across a bag). AR iron sights recently let me shoot 1" groups at 50 yards in an 18" Bushmaster stainless barrel on top of a Colt lower fullsize rifle, fullsize handguard. This was a different guy's gun, not for matches. It was probably not a target trigger. Not saying that result makes me whatever, just saying I liked the way the AR iron peep sights work, so maybe, just maybe, I could compete and learn, and not be too embarassing

I'd prefer to buy a complete gun off the shelf and not tinker with anything. Try a few boxes of factory ammo to see what it likes, and then buy that ammo by the case. I have an Interarms Mark X .223 that likes 55 gr, for woodchucks and about 1.25" groups at 100 yards. I've given up on the idea trying to stay with the same grains. The AR will be into whatever ammo it decides to like, hopefully 1" or better groups.

Tried not to get hung up on the accuracy aspect, but I probably will be more happy the more accurate the new gun shoots. Even though any off-hand iron sight competition rifle can shoot better than me, when I'm away from the bench

Home defense is not the main purpose here, but I don't want a gun that jams. Who does? I've got an unconverted Saiga 16" 7.62x39 that I think fills my home defense needs well enough, along with the handguns of course. So the AR will be a fullsize rifle made for long range accuracy, and not for room clearing. Although my wife would rather it be for room cleaning.

So what rifle should I buy? And what weblinks do you have for me to read about national match shooting or other types of service rifle shooting that you like?

Thanks for any opinions

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 10-15-2012 at 22:06..
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 22:39   #2
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
The Armalite national match looks cool.
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...b-822e58014822

This RockRiver, national match model looks interesting.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=226

Here is what I assume is Bushmaster's version of a national match rifle
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/competition.asp

Maybe a BCM is the way to go, even if not specifically marketed as a national match
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M...ifle-s/146.htm

Or perhaps even the Colt match 6700
http://www.impactguns.com/colt-rifle...00-mt6700.aspx

Any others?

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 10-15-2012 at 22:40..
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 02:17   #3
faawrenchbndr
CLM Number 281
DirtyThirty fan
 
faawrenchbndr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: east of East St. Louis
Posts: 34,937
Armalite gets my vote
faawrenchbndr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 14:19   #4
ghostwn
Ghost Member
 
ghostwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,638
What about Stags version?
__________________
G19 Club #11
Niners Club #803
ghostwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 14:29   #5
TedG
Infidel USA
 
TedG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: South Florida & Cleveland, Oh
Posts: 2,128
I'd assemble one, emphasizing the upper to be as accurate as you can afford. A lower, with a good two stage trigger is all that's necessary. The "tinkering" isn't all that difficult or time consuming. You can also go to your local range or competitions to see what others are driving tacks with.
__________________
God Bless Our Troops

Become an Organ Donor today:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Save as many as 50 lives. Thanks.
TedG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 16:51   #6
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,825
The old Bushmaster used to make a very nice NM off the shelf rifle for the money.

I'd check with Wyndham Weaponry.

The things you want in a NM rifle aren't the same as what you want in a HD carbine.

You want a freefloat barrel WITH a sturdy sling capability...you are going to sling up and put some pressure on the forend. But HP rules require the gun to appear stock.

You don't need a great barrel like a Krieger to start. You'll wear out the barrel before you have developed skills good enough to take advantage of a $500 barrel. I promise.
By the time you get to Master class you can spend the money of the expensive barrel. A barrel that will hold 1 MOA with 10 shots at 300 yards will take you well into master class. 3 shot groups are meaningless for this game. You need consistency.

If you are serious about shooting highpower buy 1,200 pieces of brass...I don't care what kind. GI brass is fine. If you have 1,000 pieces of fired Lake city that's fine. Full length resize, trim and swage the primer pockets for the entire batch. Load the entire batch using Sierra Match Kings--69 grain or more. You only need to trim and swage them the first time. Shoot the entire batch and then FULL LENGTH RESIZE and reload the entire batch. After 4 reloads throw the cases away (they will start to separate case heads on the 5th reloading). Do not neck size only. You will regret it many times over and the small gain in accuracy you get isn't worth the number of jams you will see. When you have fired this batch of brass 4 times you will have close to 5k rounds on your barrel and it will be time for a new barrel. I promise...I'm telling you from experience here. I've worn out 4 barrels shooting highpower. You don't want to dork around loading 200 or 300 pcs of brass. Get into this properly.

Your trigger must be 4.5# or more to be legal as a service rifle. Your sights should be National Match--matters not--pretty much all the same.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”

Last edited by Big Bird; 10-16-2012 at 17:06..
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 17:25   #7
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 37,772
Borrow a rifle or use a standard AR and shoot a little at local matches and learn about it before you commit. You're not going to be read for the president's match next summer.

I put one together from various parts, but used a DPMS CMP/DCM upper and just changed the rear sight to a Northern Competition aperture. I used a Colt stock and put in a lead weight and used a CMT lower with a Jewell trigger. It's pretty accurate. Somewhere I have a 100 yard target that I used to test 3 rounds of my reloads - all the shots are touching.

Too bad you're not in KY or I'd sell you the rifle and all the gear (leather coat/glove/scope/stand/etc.). I haven't shot a match in 3 or 4 years.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 10-16-2012 at 17:26..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 18:35   #8
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostwn View Post
What about Stags version?
Do they have a detachable handle one? Didn't notice it on first pass of their website.

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 10-16-2012 at 18:35..
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 18:43   #9
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
When you have fired this batch of brass 4 times you will have close to 5k rounds on your barrel and it will be time for a new barrel. I promise...I'm telling you from experience here. I've worn out 4 barrels shooting highpower.
How do you know when a barrel is worn out?

Groups sizes expand suddenly, or very slowly?
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 18:49   #10
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Borrow a rifle or use a standard AR and shoot a little at local matches and learn about it before you commit. You're not going to be read for the president's match next summer.
I've thought about a standard rifle, too.

I'll try to try a couple more rifles from club members before I purchase.
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 19:09   #11
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,825
You know the barrel is worn out when it won't hold the 10 ring at 600 yards. A newbie will not be able to tell this has happened BTW...

You cannot shoot HP with a standard rifle well. First, the sights won't work at 600. Second the adjustments are too crude.

You need a NM sight with a small front post and a couple of small NM apertures. But the standard AR sights won't work at 600

You'll want to shoot the heavier bullets. 52 grain match bullets are dismal at 600 yards. 69 gr are good. 75-77 grain are better for 600. Since you slow fire/single load 600 yards you can use the 77 grain bullets seated out a little further and shoot the 69 grain at 200 and 300 rapid fire where you need the ammo to fit the magazine.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 19:25   #12
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
You know the barrel is worn out when it won't hold the 10 ring at 600 yards. A newbie will not be able to tell this has happened BTW...

You cannot shoot HP with a standard rifle well. First, the sights won't work at 600. Second the adjustments are too crude.

You need a NM sight with a small front post and a couple of small NM apertures. But the standard AR sights won't work at 600

You'll want to shoot the heavier bullets. 52 grain match bullets are dismal at 600 yards. 69 gr are good. 75-77 grain are better for 600. Since you slow fire/single load 600 yards you can use the 77 grain bullets seated out a little further and shoot the 69 grain at 200 and 300 rapid fire where you need the ammo to fit the magazine.
Lots of good info you are providing.

Do you have to single load at 600 yards, or is that just what some do to fit in longer bullets.
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 20:03   #13
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,825
200 yard Offhand 20 shots Single load slow fire--20 minutes

200 Yard Standing to sitting 20 shots rapid fire. Two 10 shot strings started from standing to sitting 1 minute each string with a few minutes between each string for the pit to mark and score targets. There is a required reload in each string so you load 2 rounds in a magazine, fire those, and reload with another mag with 8 rounds.

300 Yard Standing to Prone 20 shots rapid fire. Same sequence as 200 yard rapid fire except its shot from the prone.

600 yards prone single load slow fire. 20 shots in 20 minutes.

There are 2 sighters allowed before each timed stage above. 88 shots total including the sighters.

Its typically shot in relays--one group of shooters works the pit and pulls targets while the other shoots the 200 yard relays and vice versa. Move to 300, lather rinse repeat. So you alternate between shooting and pulling/marking targets.

Things you will probably need--a shooting coat. Look on ebay for a nice used Creedmore or Champion's choice shootng jacket. A good shooting jacket is essential IMO. A shooting mat...not a lot of dough $40... A spotting scope--big money if you do it right but you can get a decent one that will get you started for about $250.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”

Last edited by Big Bird; 10-16-2012 at 20:04..
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 20:31   #14
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
I've got a Leupold Ventana 15-45x 60mm angled spotting scope. How well should that do?
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 20:57   #15
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,825
It should be fine. You'll need to be able to use it in all three positions--prone, sitting and standing. A 20-25X scope is about the most you can use on hot days as the mirage makes it impossible to see bullet holes on the higher magnification settings on warm days.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 05:43   #16
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,825
Lots of good information here--free articles etc.

http://jarheadtop.com/default.htm
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 06:16   #17
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 37,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
It should be fine. You'll need to be able to use it in all three positions--prone, sitting and standing. A 20-25X scope is about the most you can use on hot days as the mirage makes it impossible to see bullet holes on the higher magnification settings on warm days.
That's where the scope stand comes in. I tried getting by with a standard tripod and it doesn't work - you can get by with a cheap scope, but not a cheap stand.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 13:06   #18
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
That's where the scope stand comes in. I tried getting by with a standard tripod and it doesn't work - you can get by with a cheap scope, but not a cheap stand.
Agreed, But I've shot with High Masters that had scope stands made out of iron pipe they fitted together and fabricated a swivel mount out of junk. It worked great.

Most all scope stands can benefit from a 10lb barbell put on the vertical pole and resting on the base. Makes it much steadier in the wind.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 16:34   #19
smokin762
Senior Member
 
smokin762's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,250
If you can, go to Camp Perry and do an EIC Match. The cost is $45.00. You can keep the brass and you get a free T-Shirt. You will be using a Rock River Arms NM rifle. This is what the CMP provides. You must use their rifles.

This will give you a taste of the competition. If you sign up, the first time you will want to do the beginners class. They go over the positions a lot to help the new competitors. I would recommend going with a friend. I usually get into the 4th or 5th position on the string. That way I pull pit duty right away and leave after my Match.

The CMP building is real close and you can check it out as you get time.

http://www.odcmp.com/NM/SAFS.htm

Worth the watch.

__________________
NRA Life Member
CCW License Holder
My goal is to survive. Whatever the problem might be.
smokin762 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 17:47   #20
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokin762 View Post
If you can, go to Camp Perry and do an EIC Match. The cost is $45.00. You can keep the brass and you get a free T-Shirt. You will be using a Rock River Arms NM rifle. This is what the CMP provides. You must use their rifles.

This will give you a taste of the competition. If you sign up, the first time you will want to do the beginners class. They go over the positions a lot to help the new competitors. I would recommend going with a friend. I usually get into the 4th or 5th position on the string. That way I pull pit duty right away and leave after my Match.

The CMP building is real close and you can check it out as you get time.

http://www.odcmp.com/NM/SAFS.htm

Worth the watch.

Camp Perry 2012 M16 EIC - YouTube
Is that you shooting?
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:02.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,221
343 Members
878 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31