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Old 01-04-2013, 09:29   #1
fowl intent
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USA founded on God. So what?

Even if I conceded that the founding fathers were religious men, or even Christian (it actually appears that many of the influential founding fathers were Deists, and a few were agnostic/atheist) they went out of their way in drafting the documents that created our "republic" to make sure that religion was NOT to be advanced or even sanctioned by the resulting government.

Yes, Judeo/Christian values and ethics were influential, and were adopted where appropriate in those formative documents. But those same Judeo/Christian values have been advanced by many of the other world's religions, so they are not exclusive to the Bible followers no matter what the Teabagger's might think. I can't think of any atheists/agnostics that I know who disparage the morals or ethics advanced by Judeo/Christian teachings. It is the RELIGIOUS teachings that are objected to, at least when efforts are made to make those teachings part of government policy or school curriculum.

Many great men of history were Jewish and/or Christian. Those were two of the prevalent religions among the educated peoples of the 18th and 19th centuries. That doesn't tend to make their religious beliefs any more "true" or "valid" than those held by the current believers. And if, as I have come to accept, their religion is not "truth" then they were simply mistaken in their beliefs. It doesn't make them any less noble and significant in history. It doesn't make modern believers who actually live by what they preach, any less noble or significant. Many great men have been wrong in their beliefs and/or understandings over the millennia. (ie. flat earthier for example, or those that believed the Sun orbits around the Earth)

My point is, even if the founding fathers were predominantly Christian in their religious beliefs, so what? What they left us was a form of government that expressly protects the people from state sanctioned religion. Every one is free to believe and worship as they like, but the state cannot force or coerce the people either way. How can anyone argue with that? How can anyone living in a democratic republic, advocate for a theocracy, based on the majority religion at the time. "At the time" being a key point, because there are many majority Christian countries that in the next generation, will be subject to Sharia law.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:01   #2
Cavalry Doc
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The founding fathers had a lot of different positions, sometimes even contradicting themselves as individuals, or modifying their positions over time.

I think the country should just follow the plain text reading of the first amendment. The government should not favor one religion over another, and religious groups should be able to freely exercise their worship, or not, based on individual choice.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:32   #3
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Okay so I think this is where history has been rewritten. People are always talking about protecting the state from the church, but there was seen and equal need for protection for the church from the state. The provision in the First Amendment barring state sponsored religion is to protect religion not for protection of the state. It was to insure the government's religion did not become the only religion. Yes there is also the point to be made that was to insure a crime against God did not become a crime against state, but there's far more to itl
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Old 01-04-2013, 18:17   #4
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I've made this point many times: The Founders had the chance to incorporate religion or Christianity into the Constitution if that is what they wanted to do. But, they did not. There is not one mention of God or Christ. The only references to religion are in the 1A as a *restriction* on government, namely, it can not establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof, and in Article VI, which strongly prohibits "religious tests" as a qualification for any public office. Seems pretty clear that irrespective of their own personal beliefs, they wanted the government to be neutral in religious matters and to ensure participation by any and all faiths (no religious tests).
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Old 01-04-2013, 18:45   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentak View Post
I've made this point many times: The Founders had the chance to incorporate religion or Christianity into the Constitution if that is what they wanted to do. But, they did not. There is not one mention of God or Christ. The only references to religion are in the 1A as a *restriction* on government, namely, it can not establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof, and in Article VI, which strongly prohibits "religious tests" as a qualification for any public office. Seems pretty clear that irrespective of their own personal beliefs, they wanted the government to be neutral in religious matters and to ensure participation by any and all faiths (no religious tests).
The Church of England was a fresh memory for those guys. They recognized that different belief systems needed to be free of government interference.

Of course that was a compromise made among many men of different opinions.
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Old 01-04-2013, 20:04   #6
G26S239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
The founding fathers had a lot of different positions, sometimes even contradicting themselves as individuals, or modifying their positions over time.

I think the country should just follow the plain text reading of the first amendment. The government should not favor one religion over another, and religious groups should be able to freely exercise their worship, or not, based on individual choice.
And Article VI as well.
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Old 01-04-2013, 20:08   #7
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And Article VI as well.

To let those unfamiliar with Article VI of the constitution in on your point I'll post the text.

Quote:
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

I'm pretty OK with that.
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Old 01-08-2013, 22:43   #8
Alpine
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I quit reading at "Teabaggers."
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Old 01-08-2013, 22:55   #9
juggy4711
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I quit reading at "Teabaggers."
Same here.
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