GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-28-2012, 10:03   #1
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Badge placement effects survival

From FSRC:

I. Badge placement affects survival odds for plainclothes cops

When officers who've just finished a shooting exercise gather around and an instructor holds up a "no-shoot" target that looks like it's been riddled by machine gun fire, that's a sobering moment.

Especially when the officers now see that the target sports a badge.

Some flat out deny they fired any mistaken rounds. But after running hundreds of officers through decision-making exercises in which at least one sudden target represents an out-of-uniform cop with a badge openly displayed, Sgt. Ward Smith knows the disturbing truth: Without awareness training, the average in-service officer will fire on the "friendly" form before realizing it's a fellow LEO.

Smith, supervisor of the Kansas City (MO) PD's firearms training section and a certified Force Science Analyst, has completed a two-year study of this phenomenon that's highly relevant for off-duty, undercover, and other plainclothes officers who become involved in a hot crime scene while armed--as well as for uniformed personnel who respond to such scenarios.

"When you're in street clothes with your gun out in an enforcement situation," Smith concludes from his findings, "where you place your badge--at your beltline or hanging from your neck--may directly affect your chances of surviving when you're confronted by a responding officer who does not personally recognize you."

Research results: A center-mass display is safer.


More in their newsletter. Cops should all subscribe.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 13:38   #2
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Badge placement affects survival odds for plainclothes cops

"When you're in street clothes with your gun out in an enforcement situation, where you place your badge--at your beltline or hanging from your neck--may directly affect your chances of surviving when confronted by a responding officer who does not personally recognize you."

Research results: A center-mass display is safer.
Great reminder. When I'm responding in uniform, and the gun/deadly threat still exists, the upper torso is what I'm aiming for. When tunnel vision kicks in, I'll probably not see (or stop seeing) anything hanging off the belt.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 10-28-2012 at 13:42..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 14:00   #3
OFCJIM40
Happy Jaeger
 
OFCJIM40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chicago-area, IL.
Posts: 1,527
Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to dismiss this as being real data being gathered when we are talking about a prop hanging off of a paper target being a real indicator. I would give more credence to this if it involved sim guns with live people. A paper target doesn't respond, talk back or interact with the shooter. In a real life on the street shoot/don't shoot scenario, we will be processing 10's if not 100's of indicators and stimuli from the people we are involved with to determine friend/foe, threat/no threat. Taping a badge image to a generic paper target, IMO, hardly represents real life decision making.

So did Sgt. Smith have another group, that wasn't aware like the first group, have targets that this time had the badge hung center mass? Was there now less holes in the target? If you claim A (belt badge) isn't effective, you can't just claim automatically B (center badge) is more effective without testing it. If you want to make a scientific statement, you must run this like a scientific study. You need two groups A and B who are equally unaware of the study or the objective and run them both through. If both A and B have the same number of holes your theory goes right out the window or you have a fatal flaw in the true assessment of the study.

Basically, if you don't know how to run a study that will produce true statistical results, don't claim you have an answer when you don't. So is it this article is that poorly written and the results aren't given? If he is a "Force Science Analyst" I would hope he knows how to run a study. So I'm thinking this is just a crappy summary article. I looked on their website and couldn't find the article. You have a direct link to it by chance?
__________________
K-9 Jaeger retired, but still very much alive!!! (Active service from 09/10/01-07/30/05)
I am a Public Servant, but not YOUR servant!

Last edited by OFCJIM40; 10-28-2012 at 14:02..
OFCJIM40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 14:42   #4
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,364
I've seen fair number of No-Shoot targets riddled with holes where the pictured UC "cop" was holding a badge up in front of his chest in his extended hand. Shiny. Got shot.

The sad part is that I've seen cops of all lengths of service make that same mistake ... and others of the same variable lengths of service catch themselves (flinching, but stopping short of pressing the trigger) and not fire on the No-Shoot target.

People get rattled under stress and start not seeing & hearing things.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 15:16   #5
m2hmghb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Livin in the country of NJ
Posts: 12,213


My father always wore his badge in the middle of his vest, his thinking was if someone had something to focus on they would aim there, which is where the trauma plate is thus a lesser chance of injury.
__________________
Here's a toast to our wives and to the women we loved. <pause> May they never meet.

The M1 Garand rifle is the best battle implement ever devised by man.
m2hmghb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 15:16   #6
ejes
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 99
I have a copy of the study memo PDF attached for anyone interested.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Badge Study 2011-2012.pdf (151.1 KB, 117 views)

Last edited by ejes; 10-28-2012 at 15:18..
ejes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 15:35   #7
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,519
The "Badge Study" passes my common sense test.

Unfortnitely, there's no scientific method to prevent ALL blue-on-blue shootings. The best one can do is prevent as many as possible.

There's even one school of thought that the plain clothes LEO should be wearing their badges on their back, so the approaching LEOs can see it.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 15:42   #8
OFCJIM40
Happy Jaeger
 
OFCJIM40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chicago-area, IL.
Posts: 1,527
Ok, the memo reads much better than the article. I agree with the points made of being more aware, scanning the target better, etc. simple put, there are still too many variables in real life to call this conclusive, but, what the training attempted to achieve it did, and that is very good. We know in real life things can get very dynamic and chaotic fast, and I real life, there is more to shoot/don't shoot than just seeing a badge. But I do see what this training was trying to achieve and I do believe it was very good.
__________________
K-9 Jaeger retired, but still very much alive!!! (Active service from 09/10/01-07/30/05)
I am a Public Servant, but not YOUR servant!
OFCJIM40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 15:45   #9
Butcher
NRA Life Member
 
Butcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Eutopia
Posts: 2,525
Our department mandated that all plainclothes units wear tactical vests with "POLICE" boldly across the back and front, and our badges have to be prominently displayed on the front. We had a blue on blue fatal shooting that prompted this change


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 15:50   #10
OFCJIM40
Happy Jaeger
 
OFCJIM40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chicago-area, IL.
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
Our department mandated that all plainclothes units wear tactical vests with "POLICE" boldly across the back and front, and our badges have to be prominently displayed on the front. We had a blue on blue fatal shooting that prompted this change


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
Same thing our Tac does unless they are working something deeper cover. If their is more of a UC operation taking place, and if there's outside PD's assisting, we are informed of their general location for safety.
__________________
K-9 Jaeger retired, but still very much alive!!! (Active service from 09/10/01-07/30/05)
I am a Public Servant, but not YOUR servant!
OFCJIM40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 16:48   #11
DaBigBR
No Infidels!
 
DaBigBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Circling the wagons.
Posts: 15,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Cops should all subscribe.
I agree completely.
__________________
"Logic is rarely the engine that propels a police department forward."

-David Simon in "Homicide"
DaBigBR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 17:02   #12
Hack
Gold Membership
Crazy CO
 
Hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,947
Send a message via AIM to Hack Send a message via Yahoo to Hack
Force Science is a good thing to look at. I do agree on the center mass positioning.
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 17:39   #13
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
I've seen fair number of No-Shoot targets riddled with holes where the pictured UC "cop" was holding a badge up in front of his chest in his extended hand. Shiny. Got shot.
Makes sense, but I would think there's a big difference between wearing it on neck chain in middle of chest, and holding shiny badge in hand thrusting it forward to show the approaching officers... could easily be mistaken for a weapon in hand if things are happening quickly. Shiny+hand=bad.

Randy
steveksux is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 18:09   #14
OFCJIM40
Happy Jaeger
 
OFCJIM40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chicago-area, IL.
Posts: 1,527
Again, this is all paper target association though. This is the range effect. The best way to probably study this would be role playing and possibly with sim guns with coppers from other PD's where all faces aren't known. I still have a hard time believing and correlating that what happens on a static piece of paper with a badge prop on it with the yes/no of shoot/don't shoot really translates into real life.
__________________
K-9 Jaeger retired, but still very much alive!!! (Active service from 09/10/01-07/30/05)
I am a Public Servant, but not YOUR servant!
OFCJIM40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 18:42   #15
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by OFCJIM40 View Post
Again, this is all paper target association though. This is the range effect. The best way to probably study this would be role playing and possibly with sim guns with coppers from other PD's where all faces aren't known. I still have a hard time believing and correlating that what happens on a static piece of paper with a badge prop on it with the yes/no of shoot/don't shoot really translates into real life.

Absolutely agree that more "real life" study can/should be done. Role play with hanging a badge on a chain at chest level vs wearing it on their belt. Alternate that with wearing, say, a cell phone on the belt at the same place. And also alternate a cell phone or something non-LE-badge, such as a "CCW badge," that some BG could wear on a chain, across the chest area, to get a momentary advantage.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 10-28-2012 at 18:46..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 18:46   #16
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Read ODMP. This isn't a theoretical problem, or something created on the range.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 19:39   #17
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,519
Clearly this is NOT a theoretical problem. But maybe through role playing, we can (or maybe cannot) arrive at a "best industry practice." That is, balancing officer safety (paramount) vs. BGs gaining the momentary advantage.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 10-28-2012 at 19:48..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 19:51   #18
S.O.Interceptor
Khem-Adam
 
S.O.Interceptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Rock of Eternity
Posts: 3,814
We are required to wear our badges around our necks, in our left breast pocket, or pinned to our chest, at all time when in plain clothes. There is no belt carry for us, ever.
__________________
Rest In Peace Dad! I love you!!!!
Rest In Peace Mom! I love you!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
And if you have to go H-2-H, unload your holster gun first and rely on your concealed BUG, so that if the nut-job gets your holster gun it will be empty.
S.O.Interceptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 20:39   #19
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.Interceptor View Post
We are required to wear our badges around our necks, in our left breast pocket, or pinned to our chest, at all time when in plain clothes. There is no belt carry for us, ever.
Is this a requirement when off duty, or just for plainclothes operations?
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 20:51   #20
DustyJacket
Gold Membership
Directiv 10-289
 
DustyJacket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Missouri, East of KC
Posts: 5,986
My first shoot/don't shoot (range) experience ended up with me putting a round through the center of a handheld badge.

Of course, his other hand held a gun pointed at me, so it is arguable whether I screwed up.

Hint, if uniforms show up, point the weapon at the floor, or holster is before they get too close.
__________________
"...our quick technology allows use to indulge our deepest stupidity and tastelessness with out first thinking...."

Last edited by DustyJacket; 10-28-2012 at 20:51..
DustyJacket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 21:46   #21
Hack
Gold Membership
Crazy CO
 
Hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,947
Send a message via AIM to Hack Send a message via Yahoo to Hack
The way I look at it is if a person is aiming a gun at me, there is going to be a big issue, regardless of the shiny badge held in the other hand, (speaking of on duty).
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 22:43   #22
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,303
Blog Entries: 1
Massad Ayoob used to advocate clipping the badge onto your support hand so it's in front of your gun... there was an article back in the day showing his technique... but there is one thing the paper target cannot do and it's react to uniforms by yelling, "OFF DUTY POLICE OFFICER! DON'T SHOOT!" and then pointing the gun down or raising your arm up to get the gun out of the officer's face.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 03:26   #23
JuneyBooney
Senior Member
 
JuneyBooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 15,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
I've seen fair number of No-Shoot targets riddled with holes where the pictured UC "cop" was holding a badge up in front of his chest in his extended hand. Shiny. Got shot.

The sad part is that I've seen cops of all lengths of service make that same mistake ... and others of the same variable lengths of service catch themselves (flinching, but stopping short of pressing the trigger) and not fire on the No-Shoot target.

People get rattled under stress and start not seeing & hearing things.
There are many variables. What the article said did make some sense but with the no gloss badges being more popular than twenty years ago I would say that any undercover assignment is still dangerous from "friendly fire:.


A cursory google search also shows that larger urban departments seem to have more accidental shootings of officers than smaller departments where the officers are known to each other.
JuneyBooney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2012, 12:48   #24
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,152
Blog Entries: 3
When I was working true undercover, and not the more common plainclothes, my badge and ID were well hidden and so was my firearm, I would never think of having a gun out while undercover and uniformed officers were around..

No excuse for plainclothes agents not to have on a vest with prominent POLICE front and rear..
The one I have YEARS ago had quick pull down tabs .
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2012, 20:29   #25
S.O.Interceptor
Khem-Adam
 
S.O.Interceptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Rock of Eternity
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Is this a requirement when off duty, or just for plainclothes operations?
Just plain clothes on duty. Off duty we're not supposed to display a badge or gun at all. I doubt any of our guys carry a badge at all except for a wallet badge.
__________________
Rest In Peace Dad! I love you!!!!
Rest In Peace Mom! I love you!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
And if you have to go H-2-H, unload your holster gun first and rely on your concealed BUG, so that if the nut-job gets your holster gun it will be empty.
S.O.Interceptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:56.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,497
473 Members
1,024 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42