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Old 11-09-2012, 13:33   #121
devildog2067
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
That's true. They give you a job if you can't find one.
You can't "give" someone a job. Either a person creates value for an enterprise, or they don't. If they don't, "giving" them a job is welfare.
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:33   #122
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That's true. They give you a job if you can't find one. They're all in it together. I'm OK with that.

I would say the government is more authoritative than authoritarian. Germans don't have the right to drive 40 in the left hand while talking on their cell phones. A driver's license is expensive but unnecessary because of the mass transportation and bicycle lanes they have. I'm OK with all of that too. I have know many elderly people who continued to drive even though they were a danger to themselves and others.
Getting rid of Medicare would fix the elderly driver problem! :ROLF:
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:36   #123
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^^^^ Unfortunately, this.

If you look at the DJIA, it first hit 10,000 in 1996 or 1997. Since that time, how many time have we hit 10,000 again and again? Where are we now, somewhere around 12,000?

Whoppie-do!
Adjusted for inflation, it is down.
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Old 11-09-2012, 17:55   #124
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& now, no one will be trying to stop it ...

.
Just a question, but if the Republicans fight the Dems and the economy doesn't improve, or it gets worse, who will be vilified repeatedly by the majority of the media?

If they let the left run the recovery, by midterm people could be ready for serious change.... maybe?

Last edited by G17Jake; 11-09-2012 at 17:58..
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Old 11-09-2012, 18:06   #125
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Just a question, but if the Republicans fight the Dems and the economy doesn't improve, or it gets worse, who will be vilified repeatedly by the majority of the media?

If they let the left run the recovery, by midterm people could be ready for serious change.... maybe?
Obama said today the way to fix this problem it by taxing the rich. He is just going to keep saying the reason nobody has any money is because the rich people are hoarding it and getting rich by exploiting the common man.
The republican party has failed to recruit anybody other than old white guys and now it is too late.
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Old 11-09-2012, 18:39   #126
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I just keep saying is that it is a big **** sandwich, and we are all going to take a bite.
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Old 11-09-2012, 19:02   #127
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That's true. They give you a job if you can't find one. They're all in it together. I'm OK with that.
And that is exactly why socialism will fail miserably in our culture. Americans have not been team players in a very long time.
I'd love to live in a team culture instead of the culture of "take whatever you can get away with."
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Old 11-09-2012, 19:21   #128
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Roth conversions and Clinton's balanced budgets - a link as requested:

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=22956


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Old 11-09-2012, 20:03   #129
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Roth conversions and Clinton's balanced budgets - a link as requested:

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=22956


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Blogs with no data and no footnotes don't count. That is no more than an opinion piece. I understand there was a tax revenue flow. That is logical. But that blog never even stated it balanced the budget.

Please try again. And you shouldn't use blogs to educate yourself or others.

The Clinton surplus was mostly caused by the speed of the economy at that time and the tax revenues that resulted.
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Old 11-09-2012, 20:59   #130
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Germany
Germany what?

Is an example of socialism that somehow pay's increasing healthcare costs without capitalism?


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Old 11-09-2012, 23:31   #131
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OOObamers 2nd term will make Carters turn at the helm look like spoiled peanut butter.
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Old 11-10-2012, 03:36   #132
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
I had to look up "reprobate." If you want to live in a theocracy, go right ahead. The Middle East is full of them. America is a secular country with religious freedom.
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Agreed 100%
You know what I find disconcerting? (Ready!) The moment you thought of a theocracy you thought of the Arab world. Obviously neither one of you guys is a true Judeo-Christian because if you were, the first thing you would have thought of would be the ancient kingdom of Israel - You know that ancient nation which was warned through Samuel by God, Himself, that a monarchy (a government exalting the mind and being of man) would NOT be in their best national interests.

If you two guys actually believe that, 'The Middle East is full of theocracies' then you're both denser than a brick; and there's no more hope of successfully reasoning with you than there is for America to save herself from the cupidity and avarice of the world bankers or the international oil cartel.

It's sad really: I'm presently too old to successfully deal with a significant national economic depression; and - don't look now; but - it's right around the corner! When I was a child I admired the modern day versions of Greek democracy scattered throughout the Western world. However, as I've aged I've come, more and more, into line with Thomas Jefferson's low opinion of Western democracy; and IF, as Jefferson said, 'Democracy IS a very bad form of government ....... ' then, as any genuine intellectual could tell you, the present failure of the American Republic was guaranteed to occur on the day this nation was founded; ergo: We have, yet, another example of a national government - founded upon the false self-confidence and erratic cerebration of men - being ultimately unable to successfully govern itself.

As for America, 'having religious freedom'? Are you out of your frigg 'in minds! Been to one of our public schools lately? Obviously you haven't recently tried to be either a devout Christian or Jew in America, today. The only group that has so much as a modicum of: religious freedom, governmental respect, and academic tolerance, right now, in America is the Muslims - The Muslims!

You two are confusing Sharia law with, 'secular government'; and me and my kind are being drawn closer and closer to an economic, 'living Hell on earth' because you and your kind - in your outrageous moral degeneration and intellectual obtusion - are pushing those few true believers among the extant American population ever closer to the brink of complete national economic collapse! (Would you like to know what, ‘table stakes’ are presently being played for? The American Constitution - The one you two guys have, probably, sworn yourselves to defend - is about to be put up for international barter.)

The One True God, and those closely interrelated faiths most clearly identified with His Supreme Being, which you and the current crop of national politicians have so consciously, so deliberately, and so thoroughly rejected is no longer blessing America. The formerly altruistic and (presumably) high egalitarian ideals upon which this republic was founded have, now, come to naught; and all of us are being forced to deal with and live in the sorry governmental, 'detritus' that remains.

From now on, when I think of the mess my family and our neighbors are in, (Know what?) I'm going to remember the likes of the two of you. Multiply you two by, say, two or three hundred million other, 'lost souls' and, voila, there's the blind, deaf, dumb, defunct, and utterly dependent American public of today. Democracy and republican government are over - Over! You two guys just haven't figured things out for yourselves, yet; but, no matter because it’s already too late.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 11-10-2012 at 03:54..
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:05   #133
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Germany is selling it's industrial strength to China as fast as it can.

They are currently the captain of the sinking ship that is Europe, but it is still sinking.

In 10 years, no one will look to Germany as a model of social or economic power.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:42   #134
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
You know what I find disconcerting? (Ready!) The moment you thought of a theocracy you thought of the Arab world. Obviously neither one of you guys is a true Judeo-Christian because if you were, the first thing you would have thought of would be the ancient kingdom of Israel - You know that ancient nation which was warned through Samuel by God, Himself, that a monarchy (a government exalting the mind and being of man) would NOT be in their best national interests.

If you two guys actually believe that, 'The Middle East is full of theocracies' then you're both denser than a brick; and there's no more hope of successfully reasoning with you than there is for America to save herself from the cupidity and avarice of the world bankers or the international oil cartel.

It's sad really: I'm presently too old to successfully deal with a significant national economic depression; and - don't look now; but - it's right around the corner! When I was a child I admired the modern day versions of Greek democracy scattered throughout the Western world. However, as I've aged I've come, more and more, into line with Thomas Jefferson's low opinion of Western democracy; and IF, as Jefferson said, 'Democracy IS a very bad form of government ....... ' then, as any genuine intellectual could tell you, the present failure of the American Republic was guaranteed to occur on the day this nation was founded; ergo: We have, yet, another example of a national government - founded upon the false self-confidence and erratic cerebration of men - being ultimately unable to successfully govern itself.

As for America, 'having religious freedom'? Are you out of your frigg 'in minds! Been to one of our public schools lately? Obviously you haven't recently tried to be either a devout Christian or Jew in America, today. The only group that has so much as a modicum of: religious freedom, governmental respect, and academic tolerance, right now, in America is the Muslims - The Muslims!

You two are confusing Sharia law with, 'secular government'; and me and my kind are being drawn closer and closer to an economic, 'living Hell on earth' because you and your kind - in your outrageous moral degeneration and intellectual obtusion - are pushing those few true believers among the extant American population ever closer to the brink of complete national economic collapse! (Would you like to know what, ‘table stakes’ are presently being played for? The American Constitution - The one you two guys have, probably, sworn yourselves to defend - is about to be put up for international barter.)

The One True God, and those closely interrelated faiths most clearly identified with His Supreme Being, which you and the current crop of national politicians have so consciously, so deliberately, and so thoroughly rejected is no longer blessing America. The formerly altruistic and (presumably) high egalitarian ideals upon which this republic was founded have, now, come to naught; and all of us are being forced to deal with and live in the sorry governmental, 'detritus' that remains.

From now on, when I think of the mess my family and our neighbors are in, (Know what?) I'm going to remember the likes of the two of you. Multiply you two by, say, two or three hundred million other, 'lost souls' and, voila, there's the blind, deaf, dumb, defunct, and utterly dependent American public of today. Democracy and republican government are over - Over! You two guys just haven't figured things out for yourselves, yet; but, no matter because it’s already too late.
And, therein lies another reason the GOP is in its death throes. Vilifying someone with opposing religious views is a hallmark of Republicans.

And, this idea that we are in this mess because we aren't "blessed" by God is complete and utter BS.

So, instead of thinking of me and my religious views as the country falls, think about how closed minded religious people destroyed the GOP.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:00   #135
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Germany what?

Is an example of socialism that somehow pay's increasing healthcare costs without capitalism?


That's the tip of the iceberg. They have a mass transit system that makes automobiles a luxury instead of a necessary. People who can't afford a car or can't drive still lead normal lives. In most places in the U.S. you can't buy groceries without a car or do much of anything else. Students ride public transit to school with adults going elsewhere. If the students act up, the adults on the bus will call them down. The students don't have an opportunity to abuse other students or the drive because they have adult supervision. In the U.S. we're phobic about strangers molesting out children even though most molestation is by family members or friends of the family. We don't want to believe our precious little babies could be obnoxious and no one else has a right to an opinion about our kids no matter what they do. For these reasons we have lot of unnecessary problems in our county that Germany does not have. To someone from the U.S. it may look like Germans have less freedom. They don't, their freedoms are different. They're a much more disciplined society. The idea is that everyone does their part and everyone takes care of everyone else. Businesses take care of their society and their society takes care of them. The government takes care of businesses and the people and they reciprocate.

It's a completely different mindset from what most of us grew up with but the world we grew up in no longer exists. Today a college degree is considered entry level education. When you get out of college you're on your one. As a results we have unemployed college graduates at the same time we have trouble finding reliable mechanics, or any other type of skilled labor. That's upside down, and we're not doing anything about.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:22   #136
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I don't think it's quite as flowery as you believe, muscogee.

BTW - my mother is German. Moved here, learned the language and became a naturalized US citizen to leave the very discipline you admire.

She did always think the German health care system was superior because otherwise indigent people could get help. But it wasn't the expectation that people have here - that everyone is going to get all the heart surgeries and expensive cancer treatments on the spot. Rationing will start. Waiting lists. People will die waiting on the .govt. People will die because the .govt won't pay for certain treatments. Medical inspiration and invention will be stifled because the incentive to invent and prosper is being removed.

Just like Germany - you'll get your asprin and a broken arm set, but get on a .govt list for that heart stint or archaic cancer treatment if your on the public plan.
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Old 11-10-2012, 13:42   #137
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I don't think it's quite as flowery as you believe, muscogee.

BTW - my mother is German. Moved here, learned the language and became a naturalized US citizen to leave the very discipline you admire.

She did always think the German health care system was superior because otherwise indigent people could get help. But it wasn't the expectation that people have here - that everyone is going to get all the heart surgeries and expensive cancer treatments on the spot. Rationing will start. Waiting lists. People will die waiting on the .govt. People will die because the .govt won't pay for certain treatments. Medical inspiration and invention will be stifled because the incentive to invent and prosper is being removed.

Just like Germany - you'll get your asprin and a broken arm set, but get on a .govt list for that heart stint or archaic cancer treatment if your on the public plan.
My wife is from Germany. Several years ago a friend of the family who still lives there had colon cancer. Other than a few co pays, it was all paid for. He lost his job because he was off for several months, but he was not forced into bankruptcy like he would have been in the U.S. He got to keep his savings, his property, and everything else.

Everyone here likes to point out that people won't work if the government takes everything they have. Why would they work if the healthcare system is going to take everything they have? Why get an education, work as long as you're able, save as much money as you can only to have the healthcare system take everything you have when you start having serious health problems which forces you to move in with your children who are struggling financially? The simple answer is, people won't do that.

Many people have not had heath problems nor have they dealt with seriously ill loved ones. Our current system is turning the working class and middle class intro serfs. Everything goes to the healthcare system and the children inherit nothing. People who have never dealt with that think that's just fine. When it hits you in the face, you will feel different. When the vultures descend on you and ask if the ill person has any stocks, bonds, property or anything else they can liquidate and take, you will rethink your position. These aren't just lazy people this happens to. I have seen this happen to people who have put in long hard hours for decades only to become indigent long before they die.

As for innovation, what good is innovation if most people can't afford it. Why should the rest of us subsidize innovations that only the privileged can afford?

To those of you who have nothing but personal attacks, I'm not talking about me. I'm in good health and doing fine financially. I attribute that to good genetics and good luck. I'm not vain enough think it all happened because I'm a stud duck or that I'm the only one who ever worked hard. This country is full of hard working people.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:13   #138
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The signs of a double dip recession have been around for several years now. But, a $16 trillion dollar debt is unprecidented.
We have a government which is unwilling to reduce its spending, and lies to its consituents about unemployment levels. The actual problem that we allow China to walk all over our markets and domestic businesses, while their markets are tightly controlled and restrictive is never even mentioned. Meanwhile, government employee unions feed off of the taxpayer base like a bloated parasite with their bloated salaries and lavish pensions.
Yeah, we have already gone off of a cliff. When lending to our government tightens as it already should have, people will realize how bad off we are. At that point, all the people on entitlements who voted for Obama will be badly cut off. Do you think they will sit quietly and starve? I don't think so. We are in for some turbulant times. Not to mention what China will do to collect on their debt. They will not stand idly by while inflation eats away at their hard earned loan.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:43   #139
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My wife is from Germany. Several years ago a friend of the family who still lives there had colon cancer. Other than a few co pays, it was all paid for. He lost his job because he was off for several months, but he was not forced into bankruptcy like he would have been in the U.S. He got to keep his savings, his property, and everything else.
It was "all paid for" by other people. Instead of his own resources going to pay for his care, the state seized the resources of someone else. How nice and tidy? He got his medical treatment and his savings. What did the other guy get?

The bill.

Your friend is a leech.

Quote:
Everyone here likes to point out that people won't work if the government takes everything they have. Why would they work if the healthcare system is going to take everything they have? Why get an education, work as long as you're able, save as much money as you can only to have the healthcare system take everything you have when you start having serious health problems which forces you to move in with your children who are struggling financially? The simple answer is, people won't do that.
They'll do it if the state doesn't stick a gun in someone else's face and force them to pay for the alternative. You bet they'll do it. They did it for generations.

Quote:
Many people have not had heath problems nor have they dealt with seriously ill loved ones. Our current system is turning the working class and middle class intro serfs. Everything goes to the healthcare system and the children inherit nothing. People who have never dealt with that think that's just fine. When it hits you in the face, you will feel different. When the vultures descend on you and ask if the ill person has any stocks, bonds, property or anything else they can liquidate and take, you will rethink your position. These aren't just lazy people this happens to. I have seen this happen to people who have put in long hard hours for decades only to become indigent long before they die.
Funny, the vultures descend on me every quarter. You thinking of different vultures? I think YOU are the vulture.

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As for innovation, what good is innovation if most people can't afford it. Why should the rest of us subsidize innovations that only the privileged can afford?
In every industry where the government stays the hell out, innovation brings cost savings and efficiency. It doesn't raise cost until the government gets involved.

But to your question, yes. People who can afford to pay for better things get better things. Healthcare should be no different.

What you advocate for is for everyone to get crappy but equal.

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To those of you who have nothing but personal attacks, I'm not talking about me. I'm in good health and doing fine financially. I attribute that to good genetics and good luck. I'm not vain enough think it all happened because I'm a stud duck or that I'm the only one who ever worked hard. This country is full of hard working people.
Sure you are. That's why you whine for other people to pay your way. That's why you posted in another thread how outrageous it was to receive a measly $10,000 bill for your life saving cardiac procedure.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:45   #140
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There will only be a recession if the Republicans continue to dig their heels in. We have to raise taxes. The question is whose.
Raising taxes absolutely will. not. work.

It is going to be necessary, but the spending has to stop first.
We are probably going to need to raise rates, but it cannot be done until the economy starts to grow in a robust way. Raise them in the current economy and revenue will actually fall. The economy is too shaky to take risks in investing if the government is going to tax you out of more of the success. Better to hold on and preserve capital.

I would say that the Republicans in the House should act as if Romney won.

Don't pass another meaningless repeal of ObamaCare, pass a repeal combined with the Healthcare Bill that should have been passed in the first place.

Pass Immigration Reform that addresses the crazy process of becoming a citizen, creates a worker program, and closes and controls our borders while closing down companies that hire illegals.

Pass an Energy Bill that creates opportunity and development here.

Pass a Tax Reform Bill that makes it economically advantageous to make things here instead of making it more competitive to make things elsewhere and import them afterwards, and that repeals the tax to bring profits from overseas sales back to the United States.

The Senate will refuse to even take up those bills, but it will show the American People, who's working and who is doing nothing.

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