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Old 11-10-2012, 08:01   #201
barbedwiresmile
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I'm especially curious how you (you live in Louisiana, if I recall) or your pal barbedwiresmile would say "No thanks" to federal aid after his house is washed away.
It's amazing the resources you acquire when divorced of the federal teat. Resources of friendship, community, and - in the absence of confiscatory taxation - assets. Central statism disincents the accumulation of such resources (and community bonds). It breaks them down in favor of leveraging the evils of democracy to simply vote oneself the resources of another (taken by force).

As it happens, I and several other spent several weeks in MS after Katrina rebuilding barns, houses and outbuildings on a large area of land owned by my good friend's father. We worked hard. And were happy to do so. For no reward. It was understood that this was an act of "paying it forward". And, as it happens, I had a great need this past summer - a need that was selflessly filled by many of these same men who, without thought of reward, worked their asses off with me this past summer. The violence of democracy severs these ties in favor of factions banding together to seize their neighbors assets at gun point.

The economic dynamics of health care work in similar fashion. As do the minds of National healthcare's proponents.

So this tyranny of the majority, and the dynamics of using the ballot box as a weapon, are what remains in the absence of a 'literal' constitution restricting the state. The apparatus of state violence grows year after year, decade after decade. And we vote to determine who we aim this loaded gun at, and whose property we seize. There is no end or limit. It's all a matter of flexible interpretation for you and your lawyer buddies.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:46   #202
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So we can assume you're against any sort of federal government assistance in places hit by a Sandy or a Katrina, right?
Absolutely. Leave the taxes in the states and leave the fed out.

In other words, cut federal taxes to a pittance. Leave the wealth in the hands of the people and the states. When a disaster hits, Governor Jindal or Governor Christie can reach out to the other Governors. Without a rich Uncle to come in and make everyone whole, neighbors must help neighbors. The good news is those neighbors will be significantly more wealthy and able to do so. You might think that sounds sophomoric but I'm completely serious.

The end result is faster recovery and a stronger community, until some statist decides there ought to be a law........




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Tell me those people should just figure it out on their own, not a single red cent do they get from the fed, and I'l be impressed with the depth of your conviction.
Yes. Quit sucking the wealth out of their states and communities.

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I'm especially curious how you (you live in Louisiana, if I recall) or your pal barbedwiresmile would say "No thanks" to federal aid after his house is washed away.
Most definitely.

If you were to come down here you might understand. I live less than 10' above sea level. My house is built on a slab on the ground. Foolish? You betcha!

Federal flood insurance is only $350/yr. If I flood, the fed will make me whole. What do I care? If I flood repeatedly, the fed will pay for a contractor to finally come in and raise my house to the level it should have been in the first place.

Of course my wife prefers a home on a slab. Why? I dunno. But you can bet if she knew we were at risk of losing several hundred grand to a flood, we'd be living on piers or not living here.

Once again, the fed makes demand "inelastic"
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:52   #203
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So we can assume you're against any sort of federal government assistance in places hit by a Sandy or a Katrina, right?

Tell me those people should just figure it out on their own, not a single red cent do they get from the fed, and I'l be impressed with the depth of your conviction.

I'm especially curious how you (you live in Louisiana, if I recall) or your pal barbedwiresmile would say "No thanks" to federal aid after his house is washed away.
Matt - My annual federal tax bill is about half the value of my home. How many years would it take for me to assemble the cash needed to replace my home if it were, say, 10% of that?

Well, howydee-do! I could self-insure in just a couple of years, couldn't I?
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:22   #204
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Matt - a couple weeks after Hurricane Rita I took my kids to the local Dairy Queen one Sunday night. As we were eating our sundaes there was a nice elderly man having one who flirted with my kids in a grandfatherly kind of way. I got to talking with him while my kids ran around like kids do. He was an old Navy vet and had a roadside fruit and vegetable stand.

Turns out, Rita flooded out his rental home and he was sleeping in his truck in the parking lot. His comfort item was to come in for a sundae every evening after he showered at his niece's house.

He explained that he had new housing arranged but it wouldn't be ready for another few weeks. His niece had a young family and a small home so he didn't want to crowd them but they let him shower there each evening. He said he had money but was holding on to it to get his vegetable stand rebuilt. I asked for his cell phone number and told him I would contact some people to see if we could help.

So I went home, called a local motel, gave them my credit card and reserved the man a room for 2 weeks. When I called to tell him where to go and who to talk to, he cried.

*************

In 2008 with Hurricane Gustav headed toward the Louisiana coast I was in Academy Sports picking up some last minute prep items. There were 2 elderly nuns there looking over a Coleman stove and holding a paper list. They asked me if I could help them understand how it worked.

We talked a bit and I looked over their prep list. They were Catholic missionaries and lived in a local apartment with 2 other nuns. Their list was wholly inadequate. We filled their cart with what they came for, I took them aisle to aisle and we filled another cart. Then we went to Wal Mart and filled a couple of carts with food, water, etc. I paid for it all and followed them to their apartment to help them unload. Gave them my number and advised them on a few things.

After the storm I got a beautifully written thank you note. They faired well.

That is how community works. Imagine how it could work if the fedgov didn't suck 50% of our income and 75% of our community spirit out.
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:39   #205
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After Katrina, my community opened our civic center and several of our rec centers to evacuees. Busses full of people came in. What we had going was a true thing of beauty. Read on.

My wife and several community doctors set up an emergency medical clinic and stocked it from their offices. They had a real production line as people with all sorts of chronic and acute needs rolled in. They triaged them and got them to the different little "departments" they had set up where they were treated and given medications as needed.

Lots of young families rolled in, most of them minorities. The ladies set up a nursery and preschool area so that the parents could grab a little sleep. The ladies tended to the babies and kids.

We ran short of supplies so I went and cleared the shelves at a couple of grocery stores.....baby food, diapers, formula, etc. Literally filled my truck bed and a utility trailer. It was out of my pocket.

Most of them arrived with only the clothes on their backs, so we scavenged clothes and sorted them by size and sex.

Local businesses brought out their catering trailers (oilfield companies keep catering trailers for entertainment purposes). We had volunteers cooking on them: Barbeque, jambalaya, pasta, you name it. We fed the **** out of those people. Got the food from some oilfield catering businesses (the companies that provide food services to oil rigs). Donated. All of it.

To entertain the kids we had people bringing in big screen TVs and Xboxes, basket ball goals, balls, board games, bikes and skateboards.

We provided our own security since the sheriff's resources were completely occupied. We had a few problems but they were minimal and handled. Mostly, we kept them hemmed in to the civic center property so they wouldn't spill out wandering in the surrounding neighborhoods.

All done on a completely voluntary basis, no fedgov disaster response needed. You didn't see it on TV. That is how it works.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:09   #206
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IndianaMatt says he deals in bankruptcy.

Simply looking at the numbers of how much the .gov spends vs how much it takes in, plus the debt, can he not see that the spending is unsustainable? That, and sooner rather than later there will be no tax money going to anything except serving the debt?

For someone to who deals in bankruptcy, I don't understand how he can say that there needs to be more .gov spending!
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:17   #207
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For someone to who deals in bankruptcy, I don't understand how he can say that there needs to be more .gov spending!
I suspect he deals in bankruptcy the same way that Our Boy FFG Spyder is a disabled veteran with four Purple Hearts who was on 26 combat assaults while in the Navy...or was it the Air Force, or maybe a CIA agent or something?
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:27   #208
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Originally Posted by 427 View Post
IndianaMatt says he deals in bankruptcy.

Simply looking at the numbers of how much the .gov spends vs how much it takes in, plus the debt, can he not see that the spending is unsustainable? That, and sooner rather than later there will be no tax money going to anything except serving the debt?

For someone to who deals in bankruptcy, I don't understand how he can say that there needs to be more .gov spending!
If a publicly held company operated financially like the federal government does, the officers would go to prison.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:28   #209
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If a publicly held company operated financially like the federal government does, the officers would go to prison.
That or work on wall street.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:32   #210
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What you mean "you guys"?
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:48   #211
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Supplying a safety net, and nothing more. I don't think we need to spend anymore money on education. Much of what we've already spent has been wasted.
I don't think you're understanding. I only mentioned education as an example that wherever the federal government gets involved, things only get worse. Much of what we've already spent has been far worse than wasted- it's left the market totally warped, and so many young americans hopelessly indebted. Whatever you're saying you think the federal gov needs provide, that's just exactly what they're gonna **** up. That's all i'm telling you. There are better ways to do things. There is always a better way than one involving thousands of bureaucrats hundreds of miles away redistributing money taken by force from the peons by agents of the state, and all the corruption that inevitably brings with it. So when you say "we need washington to provide a safety net", you are wrong. Not un-electable, but only wrong. That's all.

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I understand your point, and I agree with some of it. On the other hand, you are not being realistic when it comes to certain things. What you're preaching as a whole is never going to happen. Ever. I promise you.
What am i preaching as a whole? I'm just telling you what is, is. Theft is theft even when everybody is doing it, when the government lies to people about it, when the government sanctions it and encourages it and carries it out, when one has been a victim of it oneself before, and when you pretend it's not really theft. That's just a fact- I'm not running for office, i don't have to lie about these things. Would i recommend libertarians run for office with "you're all thieves" as a campaign slogan? No of course not. I'm just telling you the truth. Most people don't realize anywhere near the extent they've been deceived by these corruptocrats.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:52   #212
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Supplying a safety net, and nothing more. I don't think we need to spend anymore money on education. Much of what we've already spent has been wasted.
No government safety net. That's how you get what we have today.

Safety nets should be provided by personal resources, family, church, community. In that order.

A government safety net is akin to telling a woman you just want to lie naked in bed next to her and cuddle. As friends. Purely platonic. To stay warm.

Or a dude. Whatever floats you boat.
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Old 11-10-2012, 16:52   #213
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I suspect he deals in bankruptcy the same way that Our Boy FFG Spyder is a disabled veteran with four Purple Hearts who was on 26 combat assaults while in the Navy...or was it the Air Force, or maybe a CIA agent or something?
Yeah, he's a real American hero!

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Old 11-10-2012, 18:00   #214
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I have a different view of money than many here obviously, and I'm going to attempt to explain my thought process with an analogy.

Money isn't paper, precious metal or electronic impulses inside bank computers. Money is a fluid.

It's the hydraulic fluid that pushes our entire economy around. That fluid pushes people out of bed in the morning to go to work. It pushes our cars to our jobs and our food onto our tables. It pushes everything we want and need to where we want and need it to be. The more of that fluid flow you can control the more you can push around to your particular ends.

The banks are the fluid reservoirs and pumps of this hydraulic system. When money is put into offshore accounts or so much is locked up in savings accounts that it never moves anywhere then that's a drain on the efficiency of the whole system. Something should be done to free that fluid up and make it easier for others to use to do work for them. If the controllers of those large amounts of fluid refuse to put it back into the system by spending or investing it the answer is not to give them even more fluid. The answer is to take it back and put into the system again regardless of their complaints or the complaints of those that have delusions of someday also being able to lock up large amounts of OUR fluid in their own stagnant pools.

This is what people are starting to realize. Those people sitting on huge reservoirs of "our" hydraulic fluid and not doing a proportional amount of "pumping" are the biggest part of the problem. They're no better than those that have no fluid and do no pumping but they're a much bigger problem because they're a bigger drain on the system.

Now enter higher taxes on those individuals to get the system up to speed again and those people may be pissed that they're not as in control as they once were but the net result is that the system is moving better. This is called "redistribution of wealth" (fine if those people are so inept at keeping it distributed in the first place) or "socialism" (not really so bad if it can ever really happen without the same greedy drainers at the top) by people who have the most to lose and their respective fanboys but those people are by no means a critical part of the system. They can always be replaced by more efficient pumps.

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Old 11-10-2012, 18:33   #215
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
I have a different view of money than many here obviously, and I'm going to attempt to explain my thought process with an analogy.

Money isn't paper, precious metal or electronic impulses inside bank computers. Money is a fluid.

It's the hydraulic fluid that pushes our entire economy around. That fluid pushes people out of bed in the morning to go to work. It pushes our cars to our jobs and our food onto our tables. It pushes everything we want and need to where we want and need it to be. The more of that fluid flow you can control the more you can push around to your particular ends.

The banks are the fluid reservoirs and pumps of this hydraulic system. When money is put into offshore accounts or so much is locked up in savings accounts that it never moves anywhere then that's a drain on the efficiency of the whole system. Something should be done to free that fluid up and make it easier for others to use to do work for them. If the controllers of those large amounts of fluid refuse to put it back into the system by spending or investing it the answer is not to give them even more fluid. The answer is to take it back and put into the system again regardless of their complaints or the complaints of those that have delusions of someday also being able to lock up large amounts of OUR fluid in their own stagnant pools.

This is what people are starting to realize. Those people sitting on huge reservoirs of "our" hydraulic fluid and not doing a proportional amount of "pumping" are the biggest part of the problem. They're no better than those that have no fluid and do no pumping but they're a much bigger problem because they're a bigger drain on the system.

Now enter higher taxes on those individuals to get the system up to speed again and those people may be pissed that they're not as in control as they once were but the net result is that the system is moving better. This is called "redistribution of wealth" (fine if those people are so inept at keeping it distributed in the first place) or "socialism" (not really so bad if it can ever really happen without the same greedy drainers at the top) by people who have the most to lose and their respective fanboys but those people are by no means a critical part of the system. They can always be replaced by more efficient pumps.
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Old 11-10-2012, 18:44   #216
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
I have a different view of money than many here obviously, and I'm going to attempt to explain my thought process with an analogy.

Money isn't paper, precious metal or electronic impulses inside bank computers. Money is a fluid.

It's the hydraulic fluid that pushes our entire economy around. That fluid pushes people out of bed in the morning to go to work. It pushes our cars to our jobs and our food onto our tables. It pushes everything we want and need to where we want and need it to be. The more of that fluid flow you can control the more you can push around to your particular ends.

The banks are the fluid reservoirs and pumps of this hydraulic system. When money is put into offshore accounts or so much is locked up in savings accounts that it never moves anywhere then that's a drain on the efficiency of the whole system. Something should be done to free that fluid up and make it easier for others to use to do work for them. If the controllers of those large amounts of fluid refuse to put it back into the system by spending or investing it the answer is not to give them even more fluid. The answer is to take it back and put into the system again regardless of their complaints or the complaints of those that have delusions of someday also being able to lock up large amounts of OUR fluid in their own stagnant pools.

This is what people are starting to realize. Those people sitting on huge reservoirs of "our" hydraulic fluid and not doing a proportional amount of "pumping" are the biggest part of the problem. They're no better than those that have no fluid and do no pumping but they're a much bigger problem because they're a bigger drain on the system.

Now enter higher taxes on those individuals to get the system up to speed again and those people may be pissed that they're not as in control as they once were but the net result is that the system is moving better. This is called "redistribution of wealth" (fine if those people are so inept at keeping it distributed in the first place) or "socialism" (not really so bad if it can ever really happen without the same greedy drainers at the top) by people who have the most to lose and their respective fanboys but those people are by no means a critical part of the system. They can always be replaced by more efficient pumps.
Well, at least we have the idiot Marxist perspective.

Money is property. The only time it becomes fluid is when the government confiscates it. Then it seeks the lowest point.
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Old 11-10-2012, 19:16   #217
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Well, at least we have the idiot Marxist perspective.

Money is property. The only time it becomes fluid is when the government confiscates it. Then it seeks the lowest point.


So if 1 individual came to own all the money then you'd be fine with them doing whatever they like with it regardless of how that affected the rest of society? Are you OK with companies merging until we have Omni Consumer Products? What a wonderful capitalist world when we all have a single option for employment that nobody can compete with. What's the difference if it's 1 or 100,000 people all looking out for the same interests?

Money is not property. The things you buy with it are your property. Money is a government (gasp!) created mechanism that facilitates the process of commerce so we don't have to mail chickens and bales of hay around. If you want money to be property then spend it on actual things since that's the function it was intended for.

Plain and simple, if you think that people that are good at collecting money into huge piles that nobody else can touch should automatically be allowed to call all the shots then you're screwed up in the head and I'm relieved that your mindset is dying out. Label it Marxism or socialism or whatever your tiny closed mind can come up with. I don't find it any more insulting than being called gay so you might want to come with some new words for a change because I ain't offended. You're a bigger part of the problem than anyone. Glad you lost your ass in this election.

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Old 11-10-2012, 19:19   #218
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So if 1 individual came to own all the money then you'd be fine with them doing whatever they like with it regardless of how that affected the rest of society? Are you OK with companies merging until we have Omni Consumer Products? What a wonderful capitalist world when we all have a single option for employment that nobody can compete with. What's the difference if it's 1 or 100,000 people all looking out for the same interests?

Money is not property. The things you buy with it are your property. Money is a government (gasp!) created mechanism that facilitates the process of commerce so we don't have to mail chickens and bales of hay around. If you want money to be property then spend it on actual things since that's the function it was intended for.

Plain and simple, if you think that people that are good at collecting money into huge piles that nobody else can touch should automatically be allowed to call all the shots then you're screwed up in the head and I'm relieved that your mindset is dying out. Label it Marxism or socialism or whatever your tiny closed mind can come up with. I don't find it any more insulting than being called gay so you might want to come with some new words for a change because I ain't offended. You're a bigger part of the problem than anyone. Glad you lost your ass in this election.
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Old 11-10-2012, 19:58   #219
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Money is property.
It's the property of the U.S. government. If you don't believe me then make a big deal about defacing and destroying "your" money in front of the right government officials and see what happens. Then try it with your real property like old CD players and dishes you don't use anymore. See if they give a damn about that.

You see that? How I come back with a damn good point instead of spouting the same lame overused word again and again? Try it sometime.

Now if you don't like that you're free to move to a place that doesn't have government issued currency if you can find one. Good luck. You can also use the barter system to subject yourself to the horrors of our money system as little as possible if you like. Then you can drive around and conduct your business with a trunk full of goods (YOUR PROPERTY!) if you think that would be better for you than the nice little cards and pieces of paper that fit in your wallet AND ARE ACCEPTED BY EVERYBODY courtesy of the U.S. government.
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Old 11-10-2012, 19:59   #220
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It's the hydraulic fluid that pushes our entire economy around. That fluid pushes people out of bed in the morning to go to work. It pushes our cars to our jobs and our food onto our tables. It pushes everything we want and need to where we want and need it to be. The more of that fluid flow you can control the more you can push around to your particular ends.

The banks are the fluid reservoirs and pumps of this hydraulic system. When money is put into offshore accounts or so much is locked up in savings accounts that it never moves anywhere then that's a drain on the efficiency of the whole system. Something should be done to free that fluid up and make it easier for others to use to do work for them. If the controllers of those large amounts of fluid refuse to put it back into the system by spending or investing it the answer is not to give them even more fluid.
The primary ignorance of economics in this retarded rant is that money never moves when its "locked up" in savings.

You think your deposits at a bank just go into a shoebox in the vault?

That money goes right back into circulation. It's lent by the banks to people who need car loans, mortgages, etc. A bank would be foolish to let money just sit. And they don't.

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The answer is to take it back and put into the system again regardless of their complaints or the complaints of those that have delusions of someday also being able to lock up large amounts of OUR fluid in their own stagnant pools.
The problem with this is

a: You're describing peoples' private property. What they have is none of your business. It is not yours to confiscate, or have others confiscate.

b: You'd feel quite differently if someone decided YOU had too much and confiscated your s#$%.

Private property is private property. Whether its your butter churn, or your cash, your house, your car, land, etc. The rights of the individual are soverign in this country. What you're describing is the former Soviet Union. The government owned EVERYTHING. They then allocated back to the people based on their needs. Quite poorly I might add.

From each according to his ability
To each according to his need.

Sounds fair, don't it?

Except it isnt and why that system failed.

No matter what you did, or excelled at

At the end of the day, you were given just what you needed.

And that's why the system failed. Humans have enlightened self interest. If no matter what they do they're still doled out the same crap month after month, there no longer is any reason to excel. You'll still get the same thing.

Which is why everything the Soviets produced was crap. Save 3 things:

Vodka: Comes from potatoes
AK47s: Design stolen from the Nazi STG 44
Caviar: The fish make that.

Their cars, tv sets, appliances…all crap. No incentive to get ahead, to do better. The masses of mediocre appear when you promise them they'll only get what they need.

Here's your apt
Here's your food ration coupons
Maybe some day a crappy car.

Can't let you people have too much.


So, essentially, your system of envy, confiscation and redistribution fails and is tossed on the ash heap of history.

So, brighten up or find another country.

Greed IS good. Try reading some of the late Milton Friedman. There isn't a system in the world that doesn't have some of it. Its part of human nature. You have a rational self interest to protect what's yours, and that means no one else can have it.
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Last edited by G29Reload; 11-10-2012 at 20:03..
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