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Old 11-09-2012, 08:08   #161
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Originally Posted by Stubudd View Post
Supplying the whole country with a safety net, or spending trillions of dollars to destroy health care, education and everything else they touch? That's what those programs have done. Why are higher education costs leaving most of a generation as indentured servants hopelessly indebted for the rest of their lives? Why do textbooks cost $150? Because the feds guaranteed money to everybody and corrupted the market. Schools charge more because they know the government is paying for it. The kids say we can't afford it, so the politicians promise more. The schools charge even more. Endless repeat, until they are charging $150 for a frickin book.

The exact same thing with the housing market- government backs mortgages that shouldn't have been made, so everybody can buy a house- prices inflate- reality eventually sets in, housing crash.

Same thing in health care. Medicare and other programs inflate prices and distort the market- an aspirin tablet costs $20 at the hospital. People ask the politicians to help them pay, even though the government created the horrible situation in the first place. Even more programs- obamacare. Even worse situation, eventually- reality will set in there too.

It's always the same. Always. More government is never the right answer. You can't save all the people, not in the real world. You say it's not realistic to think charity would be able to supply a safety net to the whole country. Who knows? Maybe if everybody didn't feel like half their money was already being confiscated by force for that safety net, more would be willing to donate some. Maybe it would only be enough to cover those who really need it, instead of being used to buy votes from leeches that won't work. God forbid. You say people are selfish- how is not selfish to take money from the government for people that could be working but won't? How is keeping what you have worked for more selfish than taking money from somebody else?

What kind of person believes they have a right to live at another's expense, from another's labor? A thief. Using the government as intermediary, as muscle, just makes one a thief by proxy. CF is right, obviously. Maybe gunhaver should pause to consider why health care is so expensive in the first place. The root of the problem is always the same.



The federal government is society? We need to send trillions of dollars to washington DC to be civilized? Say what? Think about what you are saying. Please take 15 minutes and read the link in my sig.
Well said!
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:16   #162
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This is fundamentally false. Keep telling yourself this, it will just cost the GOP another election.
I can't find his original quote to quote but i agree with yours. Obama turned out 10 million or so LESS people. He was so beatable. Only the pathetic GoP and could have managed to lose to this guy. The answer is so obvious if the knuckleheads will just accept it. "Leave people alone, keep the government out of peoples' lives, and reduce the size of it altogether".

If the GoP was actually interested in doing any of those things, they could have sent obama to oblivion in a landslide. Even a pathetic candidate like lying flip flopping un-charismatic snake of a man romney almost managed to win. Of course the GoP honchos and the big money behind them would rather nominate romney and lose than really risk their own power by nominating someone who might actually reduce it. That's the real problem. The mind melting media backed by those same people, fox news and all the rest.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:19   #163
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You say people are selfish- how is not selfish to take money from the government for people that could be working but won't? How is keeping what you have worked for more selfish than taking money from somebody else?
It may be that you didn't say that and i'm confusing who said what here and in other threads. That post was meant generally anyway, no offense
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:56   #164
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They seem to have gotten quiet when that chart came out.

In college I had a job mowing grass at a section 8 apartment complex. If we went in the afternoon the welfare leeches would steal all of our equipment so we learned to go first thing in the morning. Leeches tend to sleep late.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:21   #165
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Originally Posted by Stubudd View Post
Supplying the whole country with a safety net, or spending trillions of dollars to destroy health care, education and everything else they touch? That's what those programs have done. Why are higher education costs leaving most of a generation as indentured servants hopelessly indebted for the rest of their lives? Why do textbooks cost $150? Because the feds guaranteed money to everybody and corrupted the market. Schools charge more because they know the government is paying for it. The kids say we can't afford it, so the politicians promise more. The schools charge even more. Endless repeat, until they are charging $150 for a frickin book.

The exact same thing with the housing market- government backs mortgages that shouldn't have been made, so everybody can buy a house- prices inflate- reality eventually sets in, housing crash.

Same thing in health care. Medicare and other programs inflate prices and distort the market- an aspirin tablet costs $20 at the hospital. People ask the politicians to help them pay, even though the government created the horrible situation in the first place. Even more programs- obamacare. Even worse situation, eventually- reality will set in there too.

It's always the same. Always. More government is never the right answer. You can't save all the people, not in the real world. You say it's not realistic to think charity would be able to supply a safety net to the whole country. Who knows? Maybe if everybody didn't feel like half their money was already being confiscated by force for that safety net, more would be willing to donate some. Maybe it would only be enough to cover those who really need it, instead of being used to buy votes from leeches that won't work. God forbid. You say people are selfish- how is not selfish to take money from the government for people that could be working but won't? How is keeping what you have worked for more selfish than taking money from somebody else?

What kind of person believes they have a right to live at another's expense, from another's labor? A thief. Using the government as intermediary, as muscle, just makes one a thief by proxy. CF is right, obviously. Maybe gunhaver should pause to consider why health care is so expensive in the first place. The root of the problem is always the same.



The federal government is society? We need to send trillions of dollars to washington DC to be civilized? Say what? Think about what you are saying. Please take 15 minutes and read the link in my sig.
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Supplying the whole country with a safety net, or spending trillions of dollars to destroy health care, education and everything else they touch?
Supplying a safety net, and nothing more. I don't think we need to spend anymore money on education. Much of what we've already spent has been wasted.

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You say it's not realistic to think charity would be able to supply a safety net to the whole country. Who knows?
Anyone that is being remotely realistic.

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Originally Posted by Stubudd View Post
What kind of person believes they have a right to live at another's expense, from another's labor? A thief.
Using this logic, every single American is a thief, because they ALL partake in some type of entitlement. Some people conveniently think that only food stamps are entitlements, or only poor minorities get entitlements. That's the attitude harbored by about 90% of the posters in this section.

I understand your point, and I agree with some of it. On the other hand, you are not being realistic when it comes to certain things. What you're preaching as a whole is never going to happen. Ever. I promise you. The quicker the libertarians in this country understand that, the faster we can stop the democratic party from engraving their liberal agenda into our law books. Forget liberals and moderates, even the conservative party does not agree with most of the stuff that comes from posters like certifiedfunds. He has said, multiple times, that if we just started turning away people who show up to the ER that had a heart attack but don't have health insurance, they'd die in the parking lot, and this would be a step in the right direction for our country. If he sincerely believes this, good for him, and he can preach that message all he wants, as long as he does so far away from the Republican party. I don't want him, or any other person that believes this stuff, costing us another election. The moron in the debate crowd during the primaries that cheered "Yeah!!!" when the moderator asked if the person without health insurance should die in the parking lot was played over and over and over again by the media and permanently connected to the Republican party. So were the handful of jackasses that booed the gay soldier during the primary debates. If the Republican party cannot banish these extremists from their ranks, I promise you, the democrats will win every election from here on out.

As I said before, issues like gay marriage, bible thumping, abortion, etc., invoke a lot of emotion, and I'm almost certain that the far right will not be able to walk away from them. They'll be back in 2016 with the same message, and we'll lose again, unless the economy is godawful, and I mean GODAWFUL. The economy blows and Obama was able to win this election. The demographics will be even more in their favor come 2016, unless the GOP does something to broaden their horizons and win over women and Latinos.


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Old 11-09-2012, 09:43   #166
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There was a time when businessmen built libraries, and nuns built hospitals and schools.

Charity certainly can't do it when government sucks 50% out of the productive class and regulates the economy down to a idle.

Will charity voluntarily provide the volume of wealth the government does? No, but we can't afford it anyways. However it will also make more efficient use of the resources it receives.

Liberty doesn't work well under the umbrella of socialism.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:02   #167
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They seem to have gotten quiet when that chart came out.

In college I had a job mowing grass at a section 8 apartment complex. If we went in the afternoon the welfare leeches would steal all of our equipment so we learned to go first thing in the morning. Leeches tend to sleep late.
There are many things I disagree with on "the chart." But the chart seems to support Obamacare, since it makes clear that a massive proportion of Americans currently have no way of paying their own way for healthcare.

I'm guessing you're not a very devout Christian either. What would Jesus say of your "**** her. Let the poor biatch die in the street if she can't afford health care. Not my problem."

Last edited by IndianaMatt; 11-09-2012 at 12:03..
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:15   #168
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I'm not entitled to your money. It's not your money. It's everyone's
This is the most reprehensible thing I've read today. Or this century for that matter.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:23   #169
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There are many things I disagree with on "the chart." But the chart seems to support Obamacare, since it makes clear that a massive proportion of Americans currently have no way of paying their own way for healthcare.

I'm guessing you're not a very devout Christian either. What would Jesus say of your "**** her. Let the poor biatch die in the street if she can't afford health care. Not my problem."
The chart doesn't invite agreement or disagreement. It is simply a statement of fact.

And it doesn't say a thing about the American people other than the fact that we are enslaving future generations with debt.

My faith aside Jesus said to care for the poor. Charity. Government isn't charity.

It's really bizarre to see you unable to admit that 100% of federal revenue is spent on welfare entitlement programs. You questioned the statistic so I provided you irresputible proof in color coded fashion.

I suppose what I always suspected was true: liberals are incapable of separating emotion from rational thought.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:27   #170
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There are many things I disagree with on "the chart." But the chart seems to support Obamacare, since it makes clear that a massive proportion of Americans currently have no way of paying their own way for healthcare.
Now that Obamacare is a certainty with the resulting cut in hours those same people and a lot more, won't be able to afford anything else.

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I'm guessing you're not a very devout Christian either. What would Jesus say of your "**** her. Let the poor biatch die in the street if she can't afford health care. Not my problem."
Jesus condemned stealing, but then the disciples stole a donkey on his behalf.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:34   #171
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Matt - that big Medicare slice is the reason WHY healthcare is unaffordable for some people.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:53   #172
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The chart doesn't invite agreement or disagreement. It is simply a statement of fact.

And it doesn't say a thing about the American people other than the fact that we are enslaving future generations with debt.

My faith aside Jesus said to care for the poor. Charity. Government isn't charity.

It's really bizarre to see you unable to admit that 100% of federal revenue is spent on welfare entitlement programs. You questioned the statistic so I provided you irresputible proof in color coded fashion.

I suppose what I always suspected was true: liberals are incapable of separating emotion from rational thought.
Its not possible for anyone to separate moral arguments from policy ones. Policy inevitable involves moral judgments (i.e., "Shall we spend on the military, or on public schools?).

The above chart, however accurate, points out that there is something very wrong with how money is spent at the federal level.

A more useful discussion would be why the federal government spends so much on entitlement programs. You can't be suggesting that most of Americans would rather sit around collecting benefits, can you?

While I don't work in healthcare policy, it seems to me from that chart that there is a massive segment of people who can't afford to take care of themselves. Why is that?

Last edited by IndianaMatt; 11-09-2012 at 12:54..
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:59   #173
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Its not possible for anyone to separate moral arguments from policy ones. Policy inevitable involves moral judgments (i.e., "Shall we spend on the military, or on public schools?).
Sure it is. Aren't you a lawyer? You should know that the fedgov doesn't have a constitutional role in public schools.

See? Done.

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The above chart, however accurate, points out that there is something very wrong with how money is spent at the federal level.
Most definitely. I agree.

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A more useful discussion would be why the federal government spends so much on entitlement programs. You can't be suggesting that most of Americans would rather sit around collecting benefits, can you?
You seriously don't know the answer to that? Even after this last election?

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While I don't work in healthcare policy, it seems to me from that chart that there is a massive segment of people who can't afford to take care of themselves. Why is that?
Same reason zoo animals will starve to death if released into the wild.

As to the healthcare questions, it isn't a healthcare question at all. It is a very, very basic economic question. It is the same reason the middle class can no longer afford a college education.
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:11   #174
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Sure it is. Aren't you a lawyer? You should know that the fedgov doesn't have a constitutional role in public schools.

See? Done.



Most definitely. I agree.



You seriously don't know the answer to that? Even after this last election?



Same reason zoo animals will starve to death if released into the wild.

As to the healthcare questions, it isn't a healthcare question at all. It is a very, very basic economic question. It is the same reason the middle class can no longer afford a college education.
The constitution also doesn't say anything about the fed coordinating commercial flights in domestic airspace, though I would argue this is a pretty essential role for the FAA, not lending itself to being privatized.

But I suppose you are a constitutional literalist, so we're not gonna agree on fed v. state roles.

One of the things I do is bankruptcy. I'd say about 2/3 of couples who come in to our firm to file BK, do so after a major health "event" sent their finances into a downward spiral. Doing BK law, I'd say probably most Americans have no idea that all that separates them from the "good life" and total financial ruin is a year or two of very serious illness.

These aren't social "leeches." They're usually self-employed "Joe the Plumber" types, actually. Hardworking people. White.

The economics of medicine are broken. No other country in Europe forces people to file BK after getting sick. Here, its a virtual guarantee.

The zoo animals analogy doesn't quite work, because most people I know would rather take care of themselves, but are not able to once they get very sick.

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Old 11-09-2012, 13:20   #175
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Its not possible for anyone to separate moral arguments from policy ones. Policy inevitable involves moral judgments (i.e., "Shall we spend on the military, or on public schools?).
Is it moral to take from someone to give to someone else? The .gov can't give what it does if it doesn't take from someone else.

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The above chart, however accurate, points out that there is something very wrong with how money is spent at the federal level.

A more useful discussion would be
why the federal government spends so much on entitlement programs. You can't be suggesting that most of Americans would rather sit around collecting benefits, can you?
The .gov, through promises made by politicians is why the feds spend money the way it does. It seems that a segment of the population has realized that it can vote itself stuff.

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While I don't work in healthcare policy, it seems to me from that chart that there is a massive segment of people who can't afford to take care of themselves. Why is that?
Where does the chart say that people can or can't afford anything?

When tax payer money is used, whatever it's used to fund becomes more expensive. Look at what federal money has done to the cost of education.
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Old 11-09-2012, 13:57   #176
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The constitution also doesn't say anything about the fed coordinating commercial flights in domestic airspace, though I would argue this is a pretty essential role for the FAA, not lending itself to being privatized.
Of course it does. That is the very definition of interstate commerce. As you know the original intent of the clause to was have the fedgov serve to FACILITATE interstate commerce so that the states could trade freely and efficiently amongst themselves.

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But I suppose you are a constitutional literalist, so we're not gonna agree on fed v. state roles.
Well, it is a contract....a legal document. You're a lawyer. Should contracts and legal documents be taken literally?

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One of the things I do is bankruptcy. I'd say about 2/3 of couples who come in to our firm to file BK, do so after a major health "event" sent their finances into a downward spiral. Doing BK law, I'd say probably most Americans have no idea that all that separates them from the "good life" and total financial ruin is a year or two of very serious illness.
That's a shame. It really is. Shouldn't the focus be on bringing healthcare costs down so that doesn't happen? Government regulation can't and never has done that without creating shortages.....in ANY market.

The economics of healthcare revolve around Medicare. That's a fact. Its my business. Private insurers follow medicare's lead.

When the government unleashes the highest healthcare consuming demographic on a limited resource, and insulates them from the cost of their care, inflation occurs. Healthcare inflation took off when Medicare was enacted. Go look it up. Plain as day.

Technology doesn't drive up costs. Technology reduces costs in every other market.

Quote:
These aren't social "leeches." They're usually self-employed "Joe the Plumber" types, actually. Hardworking people. White.
I'm sure they are. I realize that leftists are accustomed to segmenting people out by race and demographic but I really am not interested in what color their skin is.

I don't wish bankruptcy on anyone but, as you well know, this is precisely why it exists.

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The economics of medicine are broken. No other country in Europe forces people to file BK after getting sick. Here, its a virtual guarantee.
1. It isn't a "virtual guarantee". I'd prefer that it didn't happen at all though.

2. The problems plaguing the European healthcare systems are well documented. I don't think we need to revisit that here unless you really want to.

Quote:
The zoo animals analogy doesn't quite work, because most people I know would rather take care of themselves, but are not able to once they get very sick.
It works perfectly for the chart I showed. Once people get promised a handout they don't like giving it up. Just see all the "conservatives" on this board defend their Social Security check with passion. (that's actually a great example of why THEY are the reason Obama got re-elected, but I digress).


I understand your point and I'm more than happy to have a civil discussion of how to fix healthcare if you're interested. It really is quite simple.
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Old 11-09-2012, 14:00   #177
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Why we lost?

Well...this does not need 8 pages of explanation.

We ran against Santa Claus....you cannot beat Santa Claus.


...seriously.

-brickboy240
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Old 11-09-2012, 15:10   #178
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Why we lost?

Well...this does not need 8 pages of explanation.

We ran against Santa Claus....you cannot beat Santa Claus.


...seriously.

-brickboy240
Exactly. In Democrat-think, Santa Claus = 'really caring about people'. Makes perfect sense to the leeches. They think they have some kind of constitutional right to their government cheese. It will get ugly when it stops.
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Old 11-09-2012, 15:56   #179
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Exactly. In Democrat-think, Santa Claus = 'really caring about people'. Makes perfect sense to the leeches. They think they have some kind of constitutional right to their government cheese. It will get ugly when it stops.
Yet like gunhaver the jewelry maker they wont give their own money to help others.
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Old 11-09-2012, 16:08   #180
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Yet like gunhaver the jewelry maker they wont give their own money to help others.
Well, of course.

The Left has always been for charity just as long as the money needed to fund it comes from someone else's pocket.
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