[Chuck TX]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

The most prevalent rifles in the hands of the DOE guards defending places like the Riverbend Nuclear Power Plant and The Strategic Petroleum Reserve are DPMS. Bushmaster has a lot of their rifles being used as well.

Big whoop. DPS uses Bushmaster, doesn't increase the quality or lack of.

Many of us own and have owned And base our experience off of that. Not what the DOE chose. Who uses what based on the lowest bid is irrelevant.

[Chuck TX]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

Those security contracts do not specify which make, simply functional characteristics. The contracts go to the lowest bidder who meets the specifications of the contract. I find it laughable when some mall ninja gives internet advice to the effect that "those are hobby grade rifles that should not be relied upon for serious purposes". There are not many purposes more serious than securing nuclear power plants and guarding nuclear weapons being transported within the US.

So for folks to be hung up on "Colt, it's mil spec, military and XYZ use them." Is ninja?

But your basis for defending DPMS is some nuke plants are guarded by them?

[arushus]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

The original owners lost their FFL due to violations of the law. Mostly unrelated to the actual production of their products. The machinery and patents were bought by a new company, price went up ($180 stripped, $270 complete), and are now available again. NO feedback on new company quality, but the lowers are off the same machinery with the same processes. http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii.html

That said, the polymer lowers made by other companies, I would toss into the No-Go pile. ARs based on those lowers are the only ones I would consider "Dogs." There are certainly some ARs that are less desireable for various functions/needs as one goes up and down the price-line.

The few ARs out there that take aberant mags and or have proprietary components, I would also not consider for a "first" or "must-work" AR. Thankfully, the Piston ARs shine is wearing off and DI systems are back in vogue. While I have seen a few people recomend Spike's, I have seen some of their products that underscore a basic lack of understanding of the AR platform, so they would not be on my list. I'd be wary of newer Bushmaster's and I would not consider an Olympic.

From what I have seen, I would have no issues with DPMS, Double-Star, DD, BCM, LMT, Stag or S&W. Personally, I think LaRue and Colt are WAY over-hyped and, while quality, there are equal or better ARs for less coin. If you want to spend a bit more, Noveske is near the top of the list and an excellent product.

I've owned Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, Firebird, JP, Noveske and others. Most of those are gone. IMO, you can get a better quality rifle with careful planning and cherry-picking parts that will serve your needs better, educate you on the operation, and cost less money, by building it yourself.

In 3Gun, we are seeing of lot of new shooters who have some sort of M4gery come out to play. As a result, we are seeing a LOT more failures: case head separations, failure to eject, extract, chamber, etc. and most of these are related to operator error in terms of maintenance. Guys takle a new rifle and go shoot 200 rounds and now you have failures. The crap some manufacturers coat their parts with gets almost like tar. But also, when you see "sponsored" shooters running factory guns that have multiple malfunctions over several matches, you start to say...that stuff don't work.

In any basic "must-work" AR, I'd avoid adjustable gas, Chromed BCGs, cheap sights, trigger jobs on mil-spec parts. Other than that, the BCG is probably the most important assembly to NOT skimp on.

Last point for the DPMS bashers...realize that a LOT of the small parts in other brands ARE DPMS parts. Also, the receivers and barrels come from a small number of factories and are branded for several "manufacturers."

This is just an honest question, and not an attempt at confrontation, and since neither of us has an emotional investment in this, Im hoping we can have a short discussion with logic, well-articulated arguments, and respect for one another...Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's? I just recently bought my first AR/M4 or whatever you wanna call it, a Spike's Tactical Elite 16" Middy with NiBX BCG and CHF CL barrel. I did my research and settled on this model. Over on M4carbine.net if you dont have a Colt, DD, or BCM you are just a plain ol' jackass, so as knowledgeable as most guys are there, I took anything I read there regarding Spike's with a grain of salt, since they showed particular bias towards BCM.
Overall I was happy with what I learned about Spike's and obviously went with them. The NiBX BCG kinda put me over the top because I have a Glock 27 with a NiBX coated barrel and upper, and Im very fond of how easy it is to clean.
Ive been very happy with my gun so far, but I've only put around 300 trouble-free rounds through it thus far, so it is by no means considered reliable yet in my mind. Also, while researching which M4 I wanted, most information I came across regarding people's thoughts on Spike's build quality was that they paid special attention to detail and the small stuff...
I'd just like to hear you expound on your opinion of Spike's rifles, not to start a debate, but because Im genuinely interested in learning about any potential issues I may or may not have with my gun, and if your experience with them would apply to my gun...Thanks!

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by Chuck TX

So for folks to be hung up on "Colt, it's mil spec, military and XYZ use them." Is ninja?

But your basis for defending DPMS is some nuke plants are guarded by them?

Can you cite where I have posted anything degrading Colt rifles, mil specs, or any organization, agency, or individual because they use Colt or mil spec rifles?

You cannot cite it because I have not posted anything of the sort. Quit making stuff up.

[fuzzy03cls]

Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's?

Can't speak for him, but the AR world has always been flavor of the month.
Years ago, Bushmaster was it, then shortly after that CMMG, then LMT, then BCM, now it's spikes. Each ones gets ragged on after another flavor comes out. Just how it is.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls

Can't speak for him, but the AR world has always been flavor of the month.
Years ago, Bushmaster was it, then shortly after that CMMG, then LMT, then BCM, now it's spikes. Each ones gets ragged on after another flavor comes out. Just how it is.

[Chuck TX]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

Can you cite where I have posted anything degrading Colt rifles, mil specs, or any organization, agency, or individual because they use Colt or mil spec rifles?

You cannot cite it because I have not posted anything of the sort. Quit making stuff up.

Try again, it's there.

You degraded people with experience based standards.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by Chuck TX

Try again, it's there.

You degraded people with experience based standards.

I did no such thing. You are a liar. List the names of the people I supposedly degraded and the number of the post in which I allegedly degraded them.

[Sporaticus]

Originally Posted by Warp

Negative.

It's like saying I've only seen two Honda Accords in operation on the road and both broke down right in front of me, therefore I am not personally willing to spend my money on a Honda Accord at this point in time, nor am I comfortable telling other people to spend their money on a Honda Accord at this point in time.

Then you certainly wouldn't want to drive an Accord through N Dallas.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Cole125

Whats wrong with Chromed BCGs? I've got a Daniel Defense chrome BCG in my newest build and can't possibly see anything wrong with it.

I said "avoid" not "wrong".

Some chromed BCGs end up being a tad tight. You are running a hard (steel) carrier in a softer (aluminum) receiver. There is just no need for it. In some cases, you can end up with increases receiver wear. Granted, several thousand rounds, which most people will never shoot.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

I said "avoid" not "wrong".

Some chromed BCGs end up being a tad tight. You are running a hard (steel) carrier in a softer (aluminum) receiver. There is just no need for it. In some cases, you can end up with increases receiver wear. Granted, several thousand rounds, which most people will never shoot.

You know, with ALL of the stuff I've read about ARs, and AR owners, and AR shooters, and all that...I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.

Surely such a thing exists, and I just haven't seen it yet?

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by arushus

...Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's?...

Well, first, their BCGs. They are on their like 4th try with the NiB bolt. They came out with an "Ultra-Light" that was just a hacked up Mil-Spec BCG. Weight reduction without increased surface contact area is a really bad idea. I was fairly direct about it on another board and it looks like they dropped it. I had one come into the shop with a fractured barrel nut that ended up trashing the receiver.

If you take their "Enhanced" kits and compare them to a DPMS kit, you might find a lot of similarities. Get a DPMS LPK for $50, add an Ergo grip, KNS pins, a Magpul trigger guard and a tool steel hammer and you have a better kit for $50 less.

It just seems that the parts rifles they build with other companies parts are okay, but overpriced. Some of their ideas/parts/reworks of parts just don't make sense, like Tungsten buffers in 16" carbines. You can get a heck of a nice rifle for $1100 to $1200 that will perform better.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Warp

You know, with ALL of the stuff I've read about ARs, and AR owners, and AR shooters, and all that...I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.

Surely such a thing exists, and I just haven't seen it yet?

The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.

Most of what you say doesn't sit well. Chrome lined carriers = bad? DPMS LPKs = good? It goes against everything I've experienced. I know we all experience different things but it's hard to digest such differing experiences. Really hard. When I've seen DPMS LPKs fail causing the host weapon to go full auto, stuck cases, etc. It's to the point when I hear of an AR failing I respond, "DPMS?" I'm usually correct. I'm a percentages guy.

150 is not a telling round count. I agree. a person who only fires 150 rounds a year will probably be ok going w/ a DPMSish AR. That is if the price is much, much less. I'd take the chance for $400. It is however more common for the lower quality ARs to be very close to if not the same price as a quality competitor. I've seen BM's and DPMS ARs no more than $100 less than a 6920. It makes no sense to not get the 6920.

I know things get tense around here but first hand experience is hard to discount when you've witnessed it w/ your own eyes.

[MarkCO]

mjkeat, please excuse my ignorance here, but I am learning. So "avoid", for some of you guys means "Bad" and "better" means "best". Does "okay" mean "best" also. I feel like I am having a conversation with a teenage girl in a language I have not yet learned.

So what DPMS parts, exactly, have you seen REPEATEDLY fail causing the AR to go full auto. Also, WHY did they fail?

BTW, I won't use any mil-spec hammers by any maker, tool steel for me please.

I've seen numerous upper receivers trashed, as well as gas ring failures due to poorly chromed BCGs. A quality chromed BCG is fine, but the cost is high. When the only benefit is allowing one to spend less time cleaning, that extra scratch is better spent on an Ultrasonic cleaner.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

If I were to want a piston driven gun, then I wouldn't be picking up an AR of some sort in the place. I've always thought that piston AR deal was silly. You take a gun that wasn't designed for a type of mechanism, then try to half-assed engineer a mechanism in to replace the original design.

I have near 5000 rounds through my LWRC M6A2 without a single malfunction. The half assed retrofit you speak of seems to work fine for me, and many others I am sure. Are there problems out there? Of course, but I have not experienced them. Granted, I can only credit my experience and rifle with that statement because I do not know anyone else with a piston driven upper. On a side note, it is nice not to have all the excess carbon build up from a direct impingement setup as well.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Most of what you say doesn't sit well. Chrome lined carriers = bad? DPMS LPKs = good? It goes against everything I've experienced. I know we all experience different things but it's hard to digest such differing experiences. Really hard. When I've seen DPMS LPKs fail causing the host weapon to go full auto, stuck cases, etc. It's to the point when I hear of an AR failing I respond, "DPMS?" I'm usually correct. I'm a percentages guy.

150 is not a telling round count. I agree. a person who only fires 150 rounds a year will probably be ok going w/ a DPMSish AR. That is if the price is much, much less. I'd take the chance for $400. It is however more common for the lower quality ARs to be very close to if not the same price as a quality competitor. I've seen BM's and DPMS ARs no more than $100 less than a 6920. It makes no sense to not get the 6920.

I know things get tense around here but first hand experience is hard to discount when you've witnessed it w/ your own eyes.

Please expound on this full auto thing. I have a DPMS LPK with a RRA 2 stage trigger in my suppressed SBR multi manufacturer build and am curious to know what parts are likely to fail causing this condition as I have never heard of it.

[mjkeat]

Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[TNRonin]

Originally Posted by P99er

Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.

I keep seeing M4C getting thrown out as the end all authority, and people disparaging DSC guns. Lets face it, if you are not an approved vendor or a gun sold by the approved vendors on M4C everything else sucks (can we say conflict of interest).

I don't know the parts anymore because I just don't care, but DSC/JT supply or used to supply many parts for the "approved by M4C" companies. Which is sort of laughable consider what they charge. FWIW I've seen lemons come out of Wilson's. sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.

You need to inspect the gun you are buying.

Sorry for any typos.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sporaticus]

Originally Posted by Warp

I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.?

If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

[Panglоss]

Originally Posted by Sporaticus

If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

Lots of people around here use Rock Rivers, including most of the SWAT team. I know of plenty of people who have put thousands of rounds through their rock river AR (even, say, a couple thousand in a weekend), and have never heard of any issues.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I understand what the definition of full auto is. No need to be a condescending jerk about it. I was simply asking what was wrong with the rifle being that I have a DPMS lower parts kit in one of my rifles. Seems that the issue you described would not apply in my situation since my trigger group has been replaced. Thanks for the answer.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by Sporaticus

If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?

I know quite a few security contractors that run Bushmaster rifles in trashcanistan and run them long and hard without fear of failure. A DPMS with a chrome line barrel is substantially similar, except chrome was an option instead of standard. Who gives a flip what fan boys believe, as long as we can stop them from misinforming folks seeking good information.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

When a plurality of the rifles in folks hands are DPMS, the plurality of failures will likely be DPMS. Combine that with tens of thousands of home builds on DPMS recievers and perceptions may get skewed. For years, we never saw a Colt M4 around here, so we never saw one Colt failure. Unobtanium neverfailium.

I agree 100% that the are better values out there in the lower price ranges, and a patient man with $625 can get a rifle made considerably better than a DPMS in todays market. That may not be true in a week.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Roger1079

I understand what the definition of full auto is. No need to be a condescending jerk about it. I was simply asking what was wrong with the rifle being that I have a DPMS lower parts kit in one of my rifles. Seems that the issue you described would not apply in my situation since my trigger group has been replaced. Thanks for the answer.

You are too kind...he did not answer you, nor me. Broken trigger group can mean a LOT of things which he did not explain. Stuck cases are rarely a rifle problem and almost always improper reloading, which again, he failed to expound upon.

Either it is common keyboard commando or he does not care enough to actually prove the point of what he beleives are failure prone DPMS parts.

Matthew Courtney's post above is spot on.