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Old 11-09-2012, 21:53   #61
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Originally Posted by MarkCO View Post
I said "avoid" not "wrong".

Some chromed BCGs end up being a tad tight. You are running a hard (steel) carrier in a softer (aluminum) receiver. There is just no need for it. In some cases, you can end up with increases receiver wear. Granted, several thousand rounds, which most people will never shoot.
You know, with ALL of the stuff I've read about ARs, and AR owners, and AR shooters, and all that...I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.

Surely such a thing exists, and I just haven't seen it yet?
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Old 11-09-2012, 22:21   #62
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Originally Posted by arushus View Post
...Im curious what has soured you towards Spike's?...
Well, first, their BCGs. They are on their like 4th try with the NiB bolt. They came out with an "Ultra-Light" that was just a hacked up Mil-Spec BCG. Weight reduction without increased surface contact area is a really bad idea. I was fairly direct about it on another board and it looks like they dropped it. I had one come into the shop with a fractured barrel nut that ended up trashing the receiver.

If you take their "Enhanced" kits and compare them to a DPMS kit, you might find a lot of similarities. Get a DPMS LPK for $50, add an Ergo grip, KNS pins, a Magpul trigger guard and a tool steel hammer and you have a better kit for $50 less.

It just seems that the parts rifles they build with other companies parts are okay, but overpriced. Some of their ideas/parts/reworks of parts just don't make sense, like Tungsten buffers in 16" carbines. You can get a heck of a nice rifle for $1100 to $1200 that will perform better.
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Old 11-09-2012, 22:29   #63
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
You know, with ALL of the stuff I've read about ARs, and AR owners, and AR shooters, and all that...I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.

Surely such a thing exists, and I just haven't seen it yet?
The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.
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Old 11-09-2012, 23:01   #64
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The answer varies based on who you ask. Unless a person is a trainer, competitor or rich, it's pretty low. Most of the people I ask in a class/clinic/at the range are in the few hundred rounds a year category. I taught a class a few weeks ago and had the guys shoot about 150 rounds throught their carbines. Most of them said that was about their annual allotment. I'm at about 9500 through the ARs so far this year.
Most of what you say doesn't sit well. Chrome lined carriers = bad? DPMS LPKs = good? It goes against everything I've experienced. I know we all experience different things but it's hard to digest such differing experiences. Really hard. When I've seen DPMS LPKs fail causing the host weapon to go full auto, stuck cases, etc. It's to the point when I hear of an AR failing I respond, "DPMS?" I'm usually correct. I'm a percentages guy.

150 is not a telling round count. I agree. a person who only fires 150 rounds a year will probably be ok going w/ a DPMSish AR. That is if the price is much, much less. I'd take the chance for $400. It is however more common for the lower quality ARs to be very close to if not the same price as a quality competitor. I've seen BM's and DPMS ARs no more than $100 less than a 6920. It makes no sense to not get the 6920.

I know things get tense around here but first hand experience is hard to discount when you've witnessed it w/ your own eyes.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:48   #65
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mjkeat, please excuse my ignorance here, but I am learning. So "avoid", for some of you guys means "Bad" and "better" means "best". Does "okay" mean "best" also. I feel like I am having a conversation with a teenage girl in a language I have not yet learned.

So what DPMS parts, exactly, have you seen REPEATEDLY fail causing the AR to go full auto. Also, WHY did they fail?

BTW, I won't use any mil-spec hammers by any maker, tool steel for me please.

I've seen numerous upper receivers trashed, as well as gas ring failures due to poorly chromed BCGs. A quality chromed BCG is fine, but the cost is high. When the only benefit is allowing one to spend less time cleaning, that extra scratch is better spent on an Ultrasonic cleaner.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:44   #66
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If I were to want a piston driven gun, then I wouldn't be picking up an AR of some sort in the place. I've always thought that piston AR deal was silly. You take a gun that wasn't designed for a type of mechanism, then try to half-assed engineer a mechanism in to replace the original design.
I have near 5000 rounds through my LWRC M6A2 without a single malfunction. The half assed retrofit you speak of seems to work fine for me, and many others I am sure. Are there problems out there? Of course, but I have not experienced them. Granted, I can only credit my experience and rifle with that statement because I do not know anyone else with a piston driven upper. On a side note, it is nice not to have all the excess carbon build up from a direct impingement setup as well.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:59   #67
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Most of what you say doesn't sit well. Chrome lined carriers = bad? DPMS LPKs = good? It goes against everything I've experienced. I know we all experience different things but it's hard to digest such differing experiences. Really hard. When I've seen DPMS LPKs fail causing the host weapon to go full auto, stuck cases, etc. It's to the point when I hear of an AR failing I respond, "DPMS?" I'm usually correct. I'm a percentages guy.

150 is not a telling round count. I agree. a person who only fires 150 rounds a year will probably be ok going w/ a DPMSish AR. That is if the price is much, much less. I'd take the chance for $400. It is however more common for the lower quality ARs to be very close to if not the same price as a quality competitor. I've seen BM's and DPMS ARs no more than $100 less than a 6920. It makes no sense to not get the 6920.

I know things get tense around here but first hand experience is hard to discount when you've witnessed it w/ your own eyes.
Please expound on this full auto thing. I have a DPMS LPK with a RRA 2 stage trigger in my suppressed SBR multi manufacturer build and am curious to know what parts are likely to fail causing this condition as I have never heard of it.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:39   #68
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Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

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Old 11-10-2012, 08:45   #69
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Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.
I keep seeing M4C getting thrown out as the end all authority, and people disparaging DSC guns. Lets face it, if you are not an approved vendor or a gun sold by the approved vendors on M4C everything else sucks (can we say conflict of interest).

I don't know the parts anymore because I just don't care, but DSC/JT supply or used to supply many parts for the "approved by M4C" companies. Which is sort of laughable consider what they charge. FWIW I've seen lemons come out of Wilson's. sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.

You need to inspect the gun you are buying.

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Old 11-10-2012, 11:18   #70
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I don't recall a thread or poll asking people how many rounds they have through their rifles, or how many rounds they put through them in an average year.?
If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:18   #71
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If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?
Lots of people around here use Rock Rivers, including most of the SWAT team. I know of plenty of people who have put thousands of rounds through their rock river AR (even, say, a couple thousand in a weekend), and have never heard of any issues.
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Old 11-10-2012, 15:59   #72
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Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

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I understand what the definition of full auto is. No need to be a condescending jerk about it. I was simply asking what was wrong with the rifle being that I have a DPMS lower parts kit in one of my rifles. Seems that the issue you described would not apply in my situation since my trigger group has been replaced. Thanks for the answer.
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Old 11-10-2012, 16:29   #73
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Originally Posted by Sporaticus View Post
If someone posts that they shoot 15k per year through their Bushmaster\DPMS\Stag\Doublestar\Rock River without any problem, do you really think the brand whores are going to believe them?
I know quite a few security contractors that run Bushmaster rifles in trashcanistan and run them long and hard without fear of failure. A DPMS with a chrome line barrel is substantially similar, except chrome was an option instead of standard. Who gives a flip what fan boys believe, as long as we can stop them from misinforming folks seeking good information.
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Old 11-10-2012, 16:33   #74
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Going full auto. Meaning the AR was being shot then with 1 pull of the trigger it fired multiple shots. The shooter was stopped and then the weapon inspected out of curiosity. The trigger group was broken. Takedown pins were replaced and the shooter was told he needed to get it fixed.

We also see a good share of lower quality rifles with stuck cases. Usually DPMS.

All stuff that's been repeated many times.

It's nothing personal. Just first hand experience.

I have Y and Z x1 and it's been good for me. Honestly that's great, seriously. As long as you're happy.

Now when we get into paying equal amounts for less quality we're not doing ourselves any favors.

I'll leave it at that as this is going nowhere.

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When a plurality of the rifles in folks hands are DPMS, the plurality of failures will likely be DPMS. Combine that with tens of thousands of home builds on DPMS recievers and perceptions may get skewed. For years, we never saw a Colt M4 around here, so we never saw one Colt failure. Unobtanium neverfailium.

I agree 100% that the are better values out there in the lower price ranges, and a patient man with $625 can get a rifle made considerably better than a DPMS in todays market. That may not be true in a week.
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Old 11-10-2012, 17:40   #75
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I understand what the definition of full auto is. No need to be a condescending jerk about it. I was simply asking what was wrong with the rifle being that I have a DPMS lower parts kit in one of my rifles. Seems that the issue you described would not apply in my situation since my trigger group has been replaced. Thanks for the answer.
You are too kind...he did not answer you, nor me. Broken trigger group can mean a LOT of things which he did not explain. Stuck cases are rarely a rifle problem and almost always improper reloading, which again, he failed to expound upon.

Either it is common keyboard commando or he does not care enough to actually prove the point of what he beleives are failure prone DPMS parts.

Matthew Courtney's post above is spot on.
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Old 11-10-2012, 17:40   #76
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SAR Gun Show is in 28 Days, there should be lots of AR's For Sale. What are the Deals?

What are the Dogs.

What is the AR's that should be avoided at all cost, as their Quality Control is IFFY?
How much can you afford for a rifle only? Your also going to need money for mags,ammo,spare parts,etc.

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Old 11-10-2012, 18:07   #77
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Just skimmed the responses. What caught my attention was the guy saying the informed posters posting from first hand experience are the ones "misinforming" people.

There seems to be a huge divide in users. I know everyone is passionate about this subject. I just cannot see spending the same money on something questionable when there are companies of unquestionable boringly consistent quality with awesome CS and fast shipping.

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Old 11-10-2012, 19:15   #78
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Just skimmed the responses. What caught my attention was the guy saying the informed posters posting from first hand experience are the ones "misinforming" people.

There seems to be a huge divide in users. I know everyone is passionate about this subject. I just cannot see spending the same money on something questionable when there are companies of unquestionable boringly consistent quality with awesome CS and fast shipping.

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The AR market has changed quite a bit in the past 8-10 years. Advice that was spot on in 2004 is will no longer guide all AR buyers to make the best purchasing decision. There are simply too many quality ARs available to make blanket statement.

With respect to posts in this thread being made by informed posters posting, I stopped counting at ten posts that were clearly reguritated rote from another forum. The only post I saw that was clearly first hand information was Warp's post # 20. The issue of hard military primers being unreliable with light target triggers is well known and applies to some JP Enterprise, Geissele, Timney, as well as the DPMS 2 stage trigger.

Many guns are tuned to do some specific thing very well and that can make them less reliable in doing other things. Since the most accurate ammo is handloaded or uses commercial, rather than military primers, users do not normally have issues. Ammo incompatibility affects many rifles. I have a Colt Sporter that will not reliably cycle Wolf 55 gr FMJ and my accuracy loads for my Remington 700 will only cycle my mini 14, not my AR's.

If the serial # on a DPMS ends in K, it is a build on a DPMS lower and is very suspect. DPMS rifles with stainless barrels are quite accurate. Outside of that, better values exist in most markets. If a mid grade DPMS passed a once over and shot well, I would buy it as a rack rifle if I could get it for $500. At $625, there are better rifles for sale all day long.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify my remarks.
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Old 11-10-2012, 19:21   #79
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I'm tired.

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Old 11-10-2012, 19:26   #80
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Lots of people around here use Rock Rivers, including most of the SWAT team. I know of plenty of people who have put thousands of rounds through their rock river AR (even, say, a couple thousand in a weekend), and have never heard of any issues.
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I know quite a few security contractors that run Bushmaster rifles in trashcanistan and run them long and hard without fear of failure. A DPMS with a chrome line barrel is substantially similar, except chrome was an option instead of standard. Who gives a flip what fan boys believe, as long as we can stop them from misinforming folks seeking good information.

I'm not a brand whore. I just suspect they will call in to doubt anyone who says they have high round counts on budget rifles with no problems.

I have BM, RR, Stag, that I've never had any problems with. I also have "top tier" rifle that when I broke it over the first time, the buffer retainer popped out and was jammed between the hammer and the receiver wall. When they assembled it, the buffer tube needed to be turned one more round. It sucks because the castle nut was properly staked.
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