[glock031]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

OWM (OWN)? First time I heard of this. Any supporting documentation? If you're correct does it somehow change anything?

Now you have heard for the first time.

Originaly posted by ar15 site staff - Aimless

"If you mean M4carbine it's owned by GandR Tactical (Grant Timberlake) and Bravo Company (Paul Buffoni) and run by Grant 'kicked off arfkom" Timberlake and Paul 'I got kicked off Arfkom too" Hotaling. Grant obviously is a Bravo Co dealer and Paul works for Alias Training and Security, which I think is owned by Bravo Company."

Yes BCM makes a good product. But so do many other companies that don't receive a honest nor fair play over at the non full disclosure we exist to support our product forum.

[mjkeat]

Links please.

Also show me any other AR w/ a higher satisfaction rating and following than BCM. I am in no way a blind fanboy and own ARs from other manufacturers. But it's hard to deny the value BCM brings to the table.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Links please.

Also show me any other AR w/ a higher satisfaction rating and following than BCM. I am in no way a blind fanboy and own ARs from other manufacturers. But it's hard to deny the value BCM brings to the table.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

BCM not only make top notch firearms, their innovation and execution in bringing accessories to the market has caused other companies to step up their games, which benefits us all. You just have to love a company that sells competitors stuff alongside their own. Do they market aggressively? Hell yes they do! Volume makes it possible for them to sell great gear at affordable prices.

[Warp]

Update: On the second to last round out of March 2009 production 20 round PMAG, with Federal M193, I had a failure to feed today. First non-flawless anything with it. Round count was less than expected for the day (barely over 300), putting the running total on the rifle to a little over 1,600

[mjkeat]

Warp, I'm not sure what manufacturer the AR was but I've heard the 20 rounders have had issues.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Warp, I'm not sure what manufacturer the AR was but I've heard the 20 rounders have had issues.

I had heard about the 20 round PMAGs maybe not being up to par. I only have one, and I haven't used it very much because, well, I heard enough to make it kinda questionable in my mind.

We'll see if I ever use that magazine again.

[AA_Khost]

[quote=Brian Brazier;19609041]for all the DS Haters here is Larry Vickers testing one

Tactical Arms - The M4 (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube

Tactical Arms - The M4 (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube

Dang,Larry put on a couple pounds in the past few years.


As for AR's I'll stick with my LaRue's and my Colts and my lone LMT.
I do have a Bushmaster that has been flawless but its from years ago when their QC was righteous.

[MD357]

Originally Posted by glock031

Now you have heard for the first time.

Originaly posted by ar15 site staff - Aimless

"If you mean M4carbine it's owned by GandR Tactical (Grant Timberlake) and Bravo Company (Paul Buffoni) and run by Grant 'kicked off arfkom" Timberlake and Paul 'I got kicked off Arfkom too" Hotaling. Grant obviously is a Bravo Co dealer and Paul works for Alias Training and Security, which I think is owned by Bravo Company."

Yes BCM makes a good product. But so do many other companies that don't receive a honest nor fair play over at the non full disclosure we exist to support our product forum.

I stand corrected, he WAS being literal.

[fuzzy03cls]

My experience with DPMS LPK's has been outstanding. I have 2 rifles now with them & they each have seen abuse.
Most small parts are made by CMT & lowers are also made by a few companies & then sent to whatever maker to finish them.
It's very likely to get the same parts from a DPMS kit as a DD kit or a spikes.
Again you have to understand how AR parts are made. Once you do all this brand snobbish crap gets put to bed. Believe whatever you guys want. My experience will dictate what I do.

[mjkeat]

Yep because there is no such thing as quality control of incoming parts from these "few companies."

[Brian Brazier]

[quote=AA_Khost;19622105]

Originally Posted by Brian Brazier

for all the DS Haters here is Larry Vickers testing one
Tactical Arms - The M4 (Part 1 of 2) - YouTube


Dang,Larry put on a couple pounds in the past few years.


As for AR's I'll stick with my LaRue's and my Colts and my lone LMT.
I do have a Bushmaster that has been flawless but its from years ago when their QC was righteous.

Yeah he has, I think the AR market is allot like the 1911 market, you have everything from low end production to high end production, semi and full on custom. Much like the 1911 market I belive there are lower priced rifles that might not be 100% "Milspec", but will provide years of failure free shooting for the owner.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Yep because there is no such thing as quality control of incoming parts from these "few companies."

Great point! Gun makers do not just recieve parts and put them together. They moniter the quality of the parts and the rifles at every step of the assembly process. Recognizing out of spec parts as well as tolerance stacking with inspections and function checks are integral parts of the manufacturing process for the better manufacturers.

[Chuck TX]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

I did no such thing. You are a liar. List the names of the people I supposedly degraded and the number of the post in which I allegedly degraded them.

Perhaps it was an unintended insinuation that folks who relay bad experiences with [insert] brand are mall ninjas. Which has become the favorite rally cry during brand war threads. Maybe that is not what you meant.

Whenever there's a thread rolling along and most folks are participating civilly, providing info based on personal experiences and science, it never fails that someone jumps in with name calling and a position based on what so and so allegedly uses.

I guess I saw in your post what killed this sub-forum, and why industry professional don't come here.

[LL6]

Originally Posted by Chuck TX

I guess I saw in your post what killed this sub-forum, and why industry professional don't come here.

I see people who want to ask questions without running the gauntlet of elitest bashings.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by Chuck TX

Perhaps it was an unintended insinuation that folks who relay bad experiences with [insert] brand are mall ninjas. Which has become the favorite rally cry during brand war threads. Maybe that is not what you meant.

Whenever there's a thread rolling along and most folks are participating civilly, providing info based on personal experiences and science, it never fails that someone jumps in with name calling and a position based on what so and so allegedly uses.

I guess I saw in your post what killed this sub-forum, and why industry professional don't come here.

There was no unintended insinuation of anything. There was a direct, intended statement that mall ninjas abound who parrot what they have heard or read. Most statements about brands to avoid are made by folks with little or no first hand experience with those brands.

There are a couple of guys, Warp and Mj, among others, who limit their commentary to what they have seen. Guys who do that are not mall ninjas. Mall ninjas don't get out from behind the keyboard and help others learn to shoot, or shoot enough themselves to have first hand experiences to share. It was you, not me, that lumped informed thread contributers in with those parroting something they read while watching Spongebob.

[mjkeat]

It's funny. We as a nation are fine w/ the education learned from reading text books and sitting through lectures by those who learned from text books to run the nation. Here however reading/researching a subject is dismissed as regurgitation.

I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.

[P99er]

Typically, it is assumed a teacher has credentials and is certified to teach, and their performance is evaluated on a regular basis.

And teachers mostly don't just teach their "opinion", they generally stick to generally accepted knowledge in the subject, and follow the course as laid out by the school\university.

Internet wannabees....... not so much.

[LL6]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.

I guess this offsets your quote from Sporaticus?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rampid

[P99er]

Originally Posted by LL6

I guess this offsets your quote from Sporaticus?

And he wants to be our teacher, and wants us all to look to him for input on our buying decisions.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

It's funny. We as a nation are fine w/ the education learned from reading text books and sitting through lectures by those who learned from text books to run the nation. Here however reading/researching a subject is dismissed as regurgitation.

I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.

I am a very serious member and contributor on a forum for weight training/powerlifting/bodybuilding, all that stuff, and you know what? Nobody who 'learned' from a text book or a lecture has an opinion that anybody else gives a **** about. The textbook/classroom/labcoat types never know a damn thing compared to the guys who have done it, and who have helped others learn how to do it.

And the guys who show up with their fancy certifications or degrees are the absolute worst...they don't have a ****ing clue. (this includes MDs, chiropractors, personal trainers, and the like....95% are wrong on almost everything)

Don't put too much stake in textbook knowledge, especially wen it contradicts real life experience based knowledge.

*Though you do need to remember sample size and context. For example, I'm sure Matthew Courtney's experiences are several orders of magnitude greater than mine. And guys like LAV or Costa probably an order of magnitude greater still.

Whether you are reading a textbook or listening to one's experience, try to find out what their actual experience is, how much of it they have, and what the context/situation was for said experience. You may find that the people writing the textbooks don't really know very much.


Edit: Perhaps our willingness to take anything from a textbook (or from a person who learned from textbooks) as the gospel truth is part of why our educational system, as a country, SUCKS, and why foreigners seem to dominate the landscape at so many major universities.

[Chuck TX]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

There was no unintended insinuation of anything. There was a direct, intended statement that mall ninjas abound who parrot what they have heard or read. Most statements about brands to avoid are made by folks with little or no first hand experience with those brands.

There are a couple of guys, Warp and Mj, among others, who limit their commentary to what they have seen. Guys who do that are not mall ninjas. Mall ninjas don't get out from behind the keyboard and help others learn to shoot, or shoot enough themselves to have first hand experiences to share. It was you, not me, that lumped informed thread contributers in with those parroting something they read while watching Spongebob.

Ok, my apologies, clearly I got you wrong then.

It was the "mall ninja" comment ironically followed by the often used by mall ninja argument of [insert brand] is good because so and so uses it that confused me. I jumped the gun.

[P99er]

Originally Posted by Warp

IEdit: Perhaps our willingness to take anything from a textbook (or from a person who learned from textbooks) as the gospel truth .....

There are a lot of teachers who believe and teach that the Second Amendment applies only to the government and military, and is not an individual right.

[P99er]

Originally Posted by Chuck TX

It was the "mall ninja" comment ironically followed by the often used by mall ninja argument of [insert brand] is good because so and so uses it that confused me. I jumped the gun.

I think it is more along the lines of "[insert brand] is good because the chart indicates it is", and all the so and so's push the chart. To be accepted as knowledgeable in that community, you have to espouse the chart.

[Panglоss]

Originally Posted by P99er

There are a lot of teachers who believe and teach that the Second Amendment applies only to the government and military, and is not an individual right.

Well, it's not like this is some huge mistake or oversight.

In fact, until the recent Heller decision, the courts never held the second amendment to guarantee an individual right either. And half of the current supreme court members disagree still. Note that a collective right of "the people" can be different from simply saying that the amendment would only apply to the government or to the military...which wouldn't even make sense anyway.

What's more disturbing is the great number of teachers who still neglect teaching evolution.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by P99er

I think it is more along the lines of "[insert brand] is good because the chart indicates it is", and all the so and so's push the chart. To be accepted as knowledgeable in that community, you have to espouse the chart.

FWIW: In my experience 9 times out of 10 that the chart is referenced these days, it's by somebody arguing against it, as you are here.