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Old 11-10-2012, 12:15   #61
jdavionic
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I've wondered the same thing. If I do it before the end of the year, I will likely save money versus doing it next year. I thought about doing it and paying off my house.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:04   #62
stevemc
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Your money, your choice. Maybe want to check that penalty percentage. I believe it's more than 10%, I thought it is 30% penalty to the IRS. Anyway, you can probably get into real estate investing in cheap foreclosed properties. Perhaps that would qualify as an investment and allow you a way around the penalty. I agree with your thinking that personally controlling your money may be better than a fund.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:51   #63
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To the OP I would stand pat for now. I would wait till next summer and then things should be clearer one way or another.

Buy land because the gov't is going to fail?? The gov't saying you own the land is the only thing you get when you buy land. Over and over throughout history gov't or rulers have taken land from the "owner"and distributed to to their supporters. Land is worthless in times of truly severe economic troubles. People abandon it mostly.

Gold has no value? If you could transport yourself back in time 4000 year ago to China with a suitcase of Krugerands you would be a rich man. 3000 years ago to Egypt you would a rich man. 2000 years ago to England you would be a rich man. 1000 years ago to India you would be a rich man. See? In any age, in any culture, gold has been the measure of wealth. But remember that FDR made owning gold illegal for americans. If you own gold coins the gov't can track them down to you and demand you "forfit for the good of the people" the gold you've hidden away. Only gold that is under the gov't radar is safe. Gold bought through your bank has no advantage over cash due to "they" know were it is.

I don't think things are going to get truly bad for at least 6 or 7 more years. On a side note however, I think we've seen the last straight white euro male elected president. From here on out the President of the USA will be Latino, black, gay or a woman or some combination of those 4. Demographics at work.........sorry guys just the way it is going to be from here "foward".
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:23   #64
Averageman
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Originally Posted by Flying-Dutchman View Post
Who will be a buyer of your investments in 2025?

The vast majority of the baby boomers will have reached retirement age by then cashed in.

The current crop of Obama free stuff voters will be in their prime earning years; will they be saving for retirement?
It is an international market.
In the end I dont think you can give up on the market now. We've been through this and worse before, we always bounce back.
Giving up 30% to get my money out now -vs- wait and buy cheap now and pile it up in the hopes the market will bound back once we come to our senses makes much more sense in the long run.
History says I'm right.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:30   #65
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I read every post and didn't see a single one asking how old are you and what is your time horizon.

My thoughts...

Trillion dollar deficits are predicted until the end of this decade.

If the election has shown anything; its Obama has no plans to slow down spending.

The federal government's tool box has been dumbed down to a single instrument: tax more

The dollar long term is in trouble

Europe's slowly boiling mess and continued political and sociological policies are not steming the tide and not reversing their problems. Greece, Ireland, Portgual, Spain are there with Italy, France and Belgium not far behind. The last I read, the only countries who will probably be left standing financially are Germany and Switzerland. I haven't been able to read much on how exposed the UK and the Nordic countries are exposed.

Long term obligations of the fed are enormous. Someone already mentioned $222 trillion; I've read figures of $170-$250 trillion over the next 30 years. In 2011, the Federal goverment had $2.303 Trillion dollars in tax receipts; forget their expenditures for a second and compare the numbers. Completely dumbed down for discussion sake tax receipts need to increase 146-260%.

If the fed collaspes those retirement accounts won't be worth anything; and no one - not even the great brain trust of GT will be able to accurately predict how a failed government will respond. A failed government could confiscate land or any goods really. Any doubt see Executive order 6102.

Here is my simple plan
Would I cash it in now - no

Have I given up on the idea of a traditional pension fueled retirement like my parents have now - yes

Would I seriously look at building a skill set marketable in a late 90's-early 00's Argentina like economy - yes

Since my crystal ball is at the shop - its the best I can do right now.
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Last edited by pugman; 11-11-2012 at 09:31..
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:11   #66
Restless28
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Originally Posted by pugman View Post
I read every post and didn't see a single one asking how old are you and what is your time horizon.

My thoughts...

Trillion dollar deficits are predicted until the end of this decade.

If the election has shown anything; its Obama has no plans to slow down spending.

The federal government's tool box has been dumbed down to a single instrument: tax more

The dollar long term is in trouble

Europe's slowly boiling mess and continued political and sociological policies are not steming the tide and not reversing their problems. Greece, Ireland, Portgual, Spain are there with Italy, France and Belgium not far behind. The last I read, the only countries who will probably be left standing financially are Germany and Switzerland. I haven't been able to read much on how exposed the UK and the Nordic countries are exposed.

Long term obligations of the fed are enormous. Someone already mentioned $222 trillion; I've read figures of $170-$250 trillion over the next 30 years. In 2011, the Federal goverment had $2.303 Trillion dollars in tax receipts; forget their expenditures for a second and compare the numbers. Completely dumbed down for discussion sake tax receipts need to increase 146-260%.

If the fed collaspes those retirement accounts won't be worth anything; and no one - not even the great brain trust of GT will be able to accurately predict how a failed government will respond. A failed government could confiscate land or any goods really. Any doubt see Executive order 6102.

Here is my simple plan
Would I cash it in now - no

Have I given up on the idea of a traditional pension fueled retirement like my parents have now - yes

Would I seriously look at building a skill set marketable in a late 90's-early 00's Argentina like economy - yes

Since my crystal ball is at the shop - its the best I can do right now.
I'm 40 and can retire with a monthly pension at 60% of my current pay minus taxes on the income, within 5 years.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:03   #67
Flying-Dutchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevemc View Post
Your money, your choice. Maybe want to check that penalty percentage. I believe it's more than 10%, I thought it is 30% penalty to the IRS. Anyway, you can probably get into real estate investing in cheap foreclosed properties. Perhaps that would qualify as an investment and allow you a way around the penalty. I agree with your thinking that personally controlling your money may be better than a fund.
Good advice, thanks. I have to put it somewhere so it if I can keep it in the IRA I will save on the 10% penalty (or whatever it is). Real estate is low now too although I have some real estate already but maybe time to double down.

I figure a 10% penalty plus a 15% tax on the gains. When the market crashed in late 2008 it occurred to me a 10% penalty wouldn’t be so bad. It changed my mindset after that.

The idea is you delay the capital gains tax until you retire when you are making less. Yet is the capital gains tax ever going to be lower than 15%? I could see it going up to 55% like the inheritance tax.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:22   #68
Flying-Dutchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
It is an international market.
In the end I dont think you can give up on the market now. We've been through this and worse before, we always bounce back.
Giving up 30% to get my money out now -vs- wait and buy cheap now and pile it up in the hopes the market will bound back once we come to our senses makes much more sense in the long run.
History says I'm right.
Good point. Many companies are multinational so the market is not at the complete mercy of the follies of the US although if the US goes down it could take the rest of the world with it.

I am more concerned about the political risk. Something changed with this election. It might mean nothing but it is a time to reevaluate investment strategy.

Sometimes there is a time to sell. I worked for a large telecom monopoly that split up.

I did the stock match program and had some Lucent stock. It went from $84 to nothing. Fortunately I was a young man.

A lot of lifetime employees, millionaires on paper, were wiped out. They should have sold but they never saw it coming.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:36   #69
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Originally Posted by Bilrus61 View Post
To the OP I would stand pat for now. I would wait till next summer and then things should be clearer one way or another.

Buy land because the gov't is going to fail?? The gov't saying you own the land is the only thing you get when you buy land. Over and over throughout history gov't or rulers have taken land from the "owner"and distributed to to their supporters. Land is worthless in times of truly severe economic troubles. People abandon it mostly.

Gold has no value? If you could transport yourself back in time 4000 year ago to China with a suitcase of Krugerands you would be a rich man. 3000 years ago to Egypt you would a rich man. 2000 years ago to England you would be a rich man. 1000 years ago to India you would be a rich man. See? In any age, in any culture, gold has been the measure of wealth. But remember that FDR made owning gold illegal for americans. If you own gold coins the gov't can track them down to you and demand you "forfit for the good of the people" the gold you've hidden away. Only gold that is under the gov't radar is safe. Gold bought through your bank has no advantage over cash due to "they" know were it is.

I don't think things are going to get truly bad for at least 6 or 7 more years. On a side note however, I think we've seen the last straight white euro male elected president. From here on out the President of the USA will be Latino, black, gay or a woman or some combination of those 4. Demographics at work.........sorry guys just the way it is going to be from here "foward".
Thanks for the post; some more things to think about.

It is true about real estate. Ownership is just a record in a Courthouse.

It makes me wonder how traceable gold is which kind of defeats its purpose if they can seize it anyway.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:45   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying-Dutchman View Post
Thanks for the post; some more things to think about.

It is true about real estate. Ownership is just a record in a Courthouse.

It makes me wonder how traceable gold is which kind of defeats its purpose if they can seize it anyway.
Depends on how it's purchased..
Cash purchase from a dealer is anonymous and untraceable.
Some states such as Virginia for example, have no sales tax on gold.
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Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY

Last edited by Atlas; 11-12-2012 at 07:57..
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:51   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pugman View Post
I read every post and didn't see a single one asking how old are you and what is your time horizon.

My thoughts...

Trillion dollar deficits are predicted until the end of this decade.

If the election has shown anything; its Obama has no plans to slow down spending.

The federal government's tool box has been dumbed down to a single instrument: tax more

The dollar long term is in trouble

Europe's slowly boiling mess and continued political and sociological policies are not steming the tide and not reversing their problems. Greece, Ireland, Portgual, Spain are there with Italy, France and Belgium not far behind. The last I read, the only countries who will probably be left standing financially are Germany and Switzerland. I haven't been able to read much on how exposed the UK and the Nordic countries are exposed.

Long term obligations of the fed are enormous. Someone already mentioned $222 trillion; I've read figures of $170-$250 trillion over the next 30 years. In 2011, the Federal goverment had $2.303 Trillion dollars in tax receipts; forget their expenditures for a second and compare the numbers. Completely dumbed down for discussion sake tax receipts need to increase 146-260%.

If the fed collaspes those retirement accounts won't be worth anything; and no one - not even the great brain trust of GT will be able to accurately predict how a failed government will respond. A failed government could confiscate land or any goods really. Any doubt see Executive order 6102.

Here is my simple plan
Would I cash it in now - no

Have I given up on the idea of a traditional pension fueled retirement like my parents have now - yes

Would I seriously look at building a skill set marketable in a late 90's-early 00's Argentina like economy - yes

Since my crystal ball is at the shop - its the best I can do right now.
Actually, predicting the government's response is the easiest part, pug.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:57   #72
Restless28
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Depends on how it's purchased..
Cash purchase from a dealer is anonymous.
Some states such as Virginia for example, have no sales tax on gold.
What if the gold isn't really gold? How can you be sure it's not just tungsten with gold veneer?
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:03   #73
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What if the gold isn't really gold? How can you be sure it's not just tungsten with gold veneer?
What if?
I've heard/seen the internet rumors about fake tungsten-filled coins. I can believe it possible, but I can't believe there are many out there.

It would require some heavy investment to accurately fabricate a 1-oz American Eagle coin from tungsten and then wrap it in a convincing gold cladding. If you know anything about metal fabrication you know this is very difficult to do.

Bullion bars is a different matter.
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June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:14   #74
Restless28
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What if?
I've heard/seen the internet rumors about fake tungsten-filled coins. I can believe it possible, but I can't believe there are many out there.

It would require some heavy investment to accurately fabricate a 1-oz American Eagle coin from tungsten and then wrap it in a convincing gold cladding. If you know anything about metal fabrication you know this is very difficult to do.

Bullion bars is a different matter.
The bars are what I had in mind. Plus, how much trust do you have in bankers?

I have none. I believe that greed has consumed men, bankers and governments.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:27   #75
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The bars are what I had in mind. Plus, how much trust do you have in bankers?

I have none. I believe that greed has consumed men, bankers and governments.
Greed has consumed the American people. That is why they are crowing for the government to steal money from one citizen and give it to another.

Especially the greedy old folks.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:05   #76
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What if the gold isn't really gold? How can you be sure it's not just tungsten with gold veneer?
A small scale and measurement tools can be purchased cheaply at Harbor freight.

I ran this cashing in idea by an older relative who has done very well in life and is not a rash person.

Before I finished my sentence this person said, “Go ahead, I think it is a good idea to get out now.”

This was not the answer I expected.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:10   #77
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IF you do it you need to convert the funds into something other than U.S. dollars (gold/silver/whatever).
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:15   #78
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What if the gold isn't really gold? How can you be sure it's not just tungsten with gold veneer?
One reason to stick with American Eagles from a reputable dealer that buys direct from the U.S. mint.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:18   #79
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No! The country is not coming to an end. We are in a rough patch, that is all. Nobody is going to be confiscating retirement accounts.
Seems more like a sink hole than a rough patch.

Retirement accounts will not be confiscated; participation in the Government Guaranteed Individual Retirement Program will be voluntary.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:22   #80
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Why should one person have more money at retirement than another person?
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