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Old 11-12-2012, 11:21   #1
WayaX
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Rifle X vs. Colt

These seem to be popping up more and more after the election, and there seems to be a common theme here. If you have to ask the question "is this rifle better than Colt?". You're probably better off getting the Colt.

Why?

Scenario 1. You're new to shooting and have been duped into believing "they all come from the same place" or Rifle X is what the local gun store is pushing. So you come to your favorite internet forum to get an opinion. Here you get responses in general.

One person says they have Rifle X and it has been amazing and will defend that it is just as good as Colt. Several people will tell you to evaluate your needs and purchase accordingly. The last set of people will just cut to the chase and say buy the Colt.

The fact is, that in the same price range ($800-$1100), Colts are the best value for an M4 pattern rifle with a few exceptions that I can count on one hand. There are "hobby grade" rifles at a significantly lower price point, and some of these represent a good deal (like the M&P sport), but a simple google search will show where they different from a Colt. In short, for an M4-pattern rifle, Colt takes the cake. For any other configuration in the $800-$1100 range, BCM, Daniel Defense, and LMT are the only companies I'd consider. Other companies, Bushmaster, RRA, etc, fall in this price range, but aren't of the same proven quality as those previously mentioned. It's for this reason that I don't recommend them.

Let's move on to the other, much less common, scenario.

Scenario 2. You're new, but like fancy things (who can blame you), and so you want the best rifle you can buy. You've done some research and have found something like the KAC SR-15. At this point, I feel that if you have to ask the question KAC SR-15 or Colt, than you would benefit more from a Colt, a case of ammo, and some instruction, than from a super fancy rifle. This may be where I differ from a lot of people, but a high-end rifle does not automatically make you able to shoot worth a damn.

So, therefore, if you have to ask the question Rifle X vs. Colt, the answer should be Colt.

I just wanted to get that off my chest.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:14   #2
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I have to disagree some what. If we still were working with what we had back in the 70-80s as far as AR makers ! I would agree completely. But we are not we have alot more choice now then we ever had back then. And Colt knew it an people (civies) paid the price for them having almost a complete monopoly. Now that Colt is not the number one supplier for the Government they have found out you can't piss down the backs of us Civies. There are plenty of quality AR makers out there. Colt maybe the measure for which all are judged by but that doesn't mean they are the best there is. I will qualify my remarks yes I've have used owned Colts, yes lots of Mil experience with them. No I do not currently own a Colt! Yes I do own AR's. Yes they function and shoot just as good as any Colt
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:19   #3
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Colt is not the end all be all. Plenty of weapons in the same price range with same quality or better IMO.

BCM, PSA, and Spikes all come to mind.

Just recently a friend ordered an upper from aimsurplus with a DD cold hammer forged lightweight barrel, blind marked spikes upper, nickel boron bcg with mpi/hpt bolt, and Moe handguards for 499 shipped. That's a high end upper for a great price. Daniel Defense barrels are around $300 by themselves.

Even if you buy a complete lower for it, you save around $200 over a complete colt m4.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:39   #4
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1100 is 38% more than 800, so the Colt costs substantially more than an $800 rifle.

Also, the S&W Sport is made from the same materials as the top of the line S&W rifles, so your reference to it being a "hobby grade" rifle reflects that your ignorance encompasses more than just your math skills.

Moving right along, we get to the fact that PSA M4 equivilants, the S&W Sport, and a few others are in the $600-700 price range. This illlustrates that your entire premise rests on a deception about the prices of many competing rifles.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:47   #5
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WayaX, good post. It's obvious you don't believe Colt is the end all be all yet some have already began to throw that BS around. People will defend their purchase to the very end regardless of how much sense you make.

In our Walmart/Disposable society people are blind to value and only care about the cost.

Colt 6920's can be had for under $1k.

When I order something and pay hundreds if not thousands for it I want to know it'll be delivered as advertised. BCM, Colt, DD consistantly deliver time after time. That means a lot and says a lot about those companies. Time is expensive. I don't have the time to screw around w/ shipping items back and forth hoping the company gets it right "this time."

Some people just don't care as it's the bottom dollar that most concerns them. Those are also the ones who don't spend money on ammunition and training. They then come on forums and spew, "just as good."

How many times have threads been created to express dissatisfaction w/ PSA in all forms from shipping times, wrong parts shipped, messed up feed ramps, canted FSPs, etc. Now ask yourself the same question about BCM, DD, and Colt.

Last edited by mjkeat; 11-12-2012 at 12:59..
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:50   #6
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Colts are good but your also limiting your options. For instance, I prefer midlength gas for a variety of reasons. How many midlength rifles does Colt sell? Colt is fine fine weapon but if you want something other than what they offer you have to look elsewhere. For me, it's Daniel Defense. $150 more and I got midlength gas, high quality rail, and high quality BUIS. The rail alone more than makes up the difference in cost.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:50   #7
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So, therefore, if you have to ask the question Rifle X vs. Colt, the answer should be Colt.
This is rediculous.

People know about Colt because they've been around for so long and the name is well recognized. All a noob can do is go with what they know, which is little, but likely includes the Colt mythology. They need information to help them understandy, over simplifying everything with "Just buy Colt don't ask questions!" doesn't help anyone, except for Colt.

Asking "is brand x as good as Colt" will get a different answer depending on Brand X, when asked of an honest and knowledgable person. If someone could get a Noveske for the same price as a Colt, the answer would be buy the Noveske. If they ask about a BCM or DD vs the Colt, the answer is more dependant on if they want a mid length gas system, free floating rail with a low pro' gas block, etc.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:58   #8
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Originally Posted by RatDrall View Post
This is rediculous.

People know about Colt because they've been around for so long and the name is well recognized. All a noob can do is go with what they know, which is little, but likely includes the Colt mythology. They need information to help them understandy, over simplifying everything with "Just buy Colt don't ask questions!" doesn't help anyone, except for Colt.

Asking "is brand x as good as Colt" will get a different answer depending on Brand X, when asked of an honest and knowledgable person. If someone could get a Noveske for the same price as a Colt, the answer would be buy the Noveske. If they ask about a BCM or DD vs the Colt, the answer is more dependant on if they want a mid length gas system, free floating rail with a low pro' gas block, etc.
And the lousy customer service at Colt is as legendary as anything else Colt offers.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:00   #9
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
WayaX, good post. It's obvious you don't believe Colt is the end all be all yet some have already began to throw that BS around. People will defend their purchase to the very end regardless of how much sense you make.

In our Walmart/Disposable society people are blind to value and only care about the cost.

Colt 6920's can be had for under $1k.

When I order something and pay hundreds if not thousands for it I want to know it'll be delivered as advertised. BCM, Colt, DD consistantly deliver time after time. That means a lot and says a lot about those companies. Time is expensive. I don't have the time to screw around w/ shipping items back and forth hoping the company gets it right "this time."

Some people just don't care as it's the bottom dollar that most concerns them. Those are also the ones who don't spend money on ammunition and training. They then come on forums and spew, "just as good."
If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more tomspend on training!
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:07   #10
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
WayaX, good post. It's obvious you don't believe Colt is the end all be all yet some have already began to throw that BS around. People will defend their purchase to the very end regardless of how much sense you make.
Correct. I don't think Colt is the end-all be all by any means. My post is geared toward people new in the AR-15 area. In fact, I hold BCM as a higher standard than Colt in many ways, but they are not readily available for the new purchaser, whereas a Colt is available at Wal-Mart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courney
1100 is 38% more than 800, so the Colt costs substantially more than an $800 rifle.

Also, the S&W Sport is made from the same materials as the top of the line S&W rifles, so your reference to it being a "hobby grade" rifle reflects that your ignorance encompasses more than just your math skills.

Moving right along, we get to the fact that PSA M4 equivilants, the S&W Sport, and a few others are in the $600-700 price range. This illlustrates that your entire premise rests on a deception about the prices of many competing rifles.
How is it a deception? There are good rifles in the $600-$700 price range that suite most people's needs. That isn't my point. My post is referring to when someone compares something to a Colt. If they make a comparison, then you assume they're willing to plunk down at least the cost of a Colt. When you look at other rifles that sit beside a Colt in a gun store in a similar price range (Windham, Bushmaster, RRA, Sig), the Colt is clearly the better value, even if it is $200 more than the others. If the others were priced at $600-700, then they would represent an okay value. At $800, I feel they do not. These are the rifles that most often get compared to Colt, as they are most common in stores.


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Originally Posted by txgunguy
Colt is not the end all be all. Plenty of weapons in the same price range with same quality or better IMO.

BCM, PSA, and Spikes all come to mind.

Just recently a friend ordered an upper from aimsurplus with a DD cold hammer forged lightweight barrel, blind marked spikes upper, nickel boron bcg with mpi/hpt bolt, and Moe handguards for 499 shipped. That's a high end upper for a great price. Daniel Defense barrels are around $300 by themselves.

Even if you buy a complete lower for it, you save around $200 over a complete colt m4.
Many problems arise from inexperienced people throwing together parts or buying new companies builds. This is nothing against AIM suprlus, because I believe they are a good company, but their track record in assembling AR-15 uppers is unknown. Just as we are getting more options for good rifles, there are an equal number of people trying to capitalize on the boom who have no experience or qualifications to do so. I stand that anyone new to AR's should stick to factory made weapons for their first rifle. PSA is quickly proving that you get what you pay for, for the cost of their rifles, if you get a good one, you got a bargain. They've shown, however, that they are a prime example of people getting into the AR-15 world that have no experience selling rifles.

BCM is no longer significantly cheaper than Colt (if cheaper at all). BCM is also not a brand considered by many new shooters, due to it not being widely carried in stores. I actually prefer BCM to Colt, if only because of the options available. My post was geared toward new shooters, mostly drawn in due to the election. For most of these people, BCM is not an option.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:09   #11
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more tomspend on training!
If they can get a good deal on an M&P sport, and spend the rest on training, I would say absolutely, 100%, go for it. That's not my point.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:14   #12
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Originally Posted by RatDrall View Post
Asking "is brand x as good as Colt" will get a different answer depending on Brand X, when asked of an honest and knowledgable person. If someone could get a Noveske for the same price as a Colt, the answer would be buy the Noveske. If they ask about a BCM or DD vs the Colt, the answer is more dependant on if they want a mid length gas system, free floating rail with a low pro' gas block, etc.
Most knowledgeable people in AR-15's don't ask the "rifle vs rifle" questions. If you notice, [DD/LMT/BCM] vs. Colt doesn't come up often. Usually the people asking these questions went to a local gun store, saw the common brands of rifles sitting on the rack, and is trying to figure out what one is better.

The point of this thread isn't "is brand x better than a Colt?". The point is, if you have to ask the question, then the answer will usually be Colt.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:17   #13
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more to spend on training!
What we actually see more often than the "saved" money being spent on training is the money being spent on cheap crap accessories to make the rifle "cool".
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:18   #14
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WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:21   #15
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If they can get a good deal on an M&P sport, and spend the rest on training, I would say absolutely, 100%, go for it. That's not my point.

Economics is the study of how people and nations use limited resources in an attempt to satisfy unlimited wants. Any discussion about cost has got to include alternate uses for the customers money.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:21   #16
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WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.
Sportsman's Warehouse, and Wal-Mart are both selling Colt's, several local gun stores sell them around here as well. This thread isn't about Colt being the best choice for all people.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:23   #17
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What we actually see more often than the "saved" money being spent on training is the money being spent on cheap crap accessories to make the rifle "cool".
That's absolutely true, but an entirely different can of worms.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:23   #18
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What we actually see more often than the "saved" money being spent on training is the money being spent on cheap crap accessories to make the rifle "cool".
My experience would indicate:

Magazines
Ammo
Optics
Case or sling
Other crap
Training

In that order, more or less.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:23   #19
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If a customer buys a $700 rifle instead of a Colt, they have $200-$300 more tomspend on training!
The customer that purchases the $700 rifle does so because he's looking for the cheapest rifle because he's just going to "plink" at the farm. I do realize there is always an exception to every rule. That is not the end user that is going to seak formal instruction or spend money on enough ammunition to become familiar w/ that new AR. That AR is going to sit in the safe all but a couple weekends a year.

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I went to PSA's site and it looks like a PSA M4-ish MOE AR is on sale for $869.99. The Colt MOE version is $1055.00. Almost $200 difference in price if you don't take into account that the Colt comes w/ 2 PMags.

Not worth the $185.01 (minus the price of a PMag) saved.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:26   #20
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
The customer that purchases the $700 rifle does so because he's looking for the cheapest rifle because he's just going to "plink" at the farm. I do realize there is always an exception to every rule. That is not the end user that is going to seak formal instruction or spend money on enough ammunition to become familiar w/ that new AR. That AR is going to sit in the safe all but a couple weekends a year.

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I went to PSA's site and it looks like a PSA M4-ish MOE AR is on sale for $869.99. The Colt MOE version is $1055.00. Almost $200 difference in price if you don't take into account that the Colt comes w/ 2 PMags.

Not worth the $185.01 (minus the price of a PMag) saved.
Back when there were nothing but junk rifles in the $700 range, that would concern me. Now that there are viable alternatives for as low as $700, I take no issue with a buyer who saves a few $.
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