GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2012, 12:40   #26
WayaX
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
WayaX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
In your area, Colt rifles may be the way to go. I did not write that $700 rifles were best for everyone.
And I didn't write that Colt's were. In fact, if a Colt 6920 went above $1200, I would say that there are many better deals. With the election behind us and the panic buying possibly starting, and people jacking Colts up to $1900 like before, then a Colt would certainly not be a good choice. So yes, everything does hinge on price and availability.
__________________
"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."

-Haile Selassie I
WayaX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 12:49   #27
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by WayaX View Post
And I didn't write that Colt's were. In fact, if a Colt 6920 went above $1200, I would say that there are many better deals. With the election behind us and the panic buying possibly starting, and people jacking Colts up to $1900 like before, then a Colt would certainly not be a good choice. So yes, everything does hinge on price and availability.
Uh, when you wrote that in deciding between rifle x and a colt, the x did not represent a variable of a rifle of a differing brand? You did not put forth the conclusion that the Colt was always the better choice?

Within the very broad parameters of 800-1100 bucks, that is exactly what you wrote. I am glad to see you getting to the point where you acknowledge that availability, as well as $100 difference in price, can change the trade-off equation enough to allow other choices to be considered rational.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 13:03   #28
WayaX
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
WayaX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Uh, when you wrote that in deciding between rifle x and a colt, the x did not represent a variable of a rifle of a differing brand? You did not put forth the conclusion that the Colt was always the better choice?

Within the very broad parameters of 800-1100 bucks, that is exactly what you wrote. I am glad to see you getting to the point where you acknowledge that availability, as well as $100 difference in price, can change the trade-off equation enough to allow other choices to be considered rational.
My point is that if that people who make threads of "brand x vs. Colt" are better off picking the Colt between the two. This assumes, in making the thread, that a Colt is not a monetary stretch, is available (and associated costs of shipping have been factored in). Threads that compare M&P sports to Colts (not your testing thread), are not common, as the Sport and Colt are typically marketed to two different groups of people.

While I would never buy something like an M&P sport, I actually really appreciate what they do for the AR-15 community. The more people involved in "black rifles" the better.

Other companies, such as Windham, try to market themselves as "as good as" Colts, when in reality, they are most likely not (due to a variety of reasons). It's these threads that I state that the only choice, between the two, is Colt.

Most of the "brand x vs. Colt" threads are usually like this. Some local gun being sold at a hideous mark up ($800 Bushmaster/DPMS/RRA) has been touted by an employee as being good quality, but some poor sap has also heard that Colt makes "the best" M4. Money savings or not, paying $800 for a "mid-tier" rifle, when better are available in the $600-$700 range AFTER shipping and fees, is like paying $30,000 for a Hyundai.

I got my $800 part because there is a cap in what I consider to be good rifles between $800-900. Generally there are good bargains for plinking rifles in the $600-$70 range, but once you hit the $800 mark, things don't become worth the cost.
__________________
"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."

-Haile Selassie I

Last edited by WayaX; 11-12-2012 at 13:04..
WayaX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 18:27   #29
LA_357SIG
Milspectacular
 
LA_357SIG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Not Los Angeles.
Posts: 1,224
Firearms technology has improved since the 1990's when the M4 was developed. Colt may hold the title of "minimum standard" but there are companies that match and exceed that standard. The standards that Colt and the Army developed and subsequent revisions were applicable for the FA/3RB M4 and successors. Issues civilian AR-15's will rarely encounter. For the life of me, I can't understand as much impact as "the chart" had on 1. the AR-15 industry, 2. the mindset of the AR-15 community, why the complimentary material goes ignored.

The ONLY value I saw out of M4C.net and the chart was "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better! So much valuable information in that post, yet the whole "tier 1" (for lack of a better term) elitist still forcefeed Colt/LMT/BCM/DD/KAC and attack anyone who doesn't agree.

As far as value in the Colt 6920 price range...? Yeah, for +/- $1000 it is the best value around for outdated technology. IMO a 4140 midlength upper on a forged lower with a MIL-STD receiver extension and BCG PROPERLY ASSEMBLED under $1000 will be a better value than than any Colt 6920.
__________________
"If I was you I would keep it just like it is... and shoot the **** out of it until something breaks. Then replace whatever it is and keep shooting."
LA_357SIG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 18:34   #30
WayaX
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
WayaX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA_357SIG View Post
Firearms technology has improved since the 1990's when the M4 was developed. Colt may hold the title of "minimum standard" but there are companies that match and exceed that standard. The standards that Colt and the Army developed and subsequent revisions were applicable for the FA/3RB M4 and successors. Issues civilian AR-15's will rarely encounter. For the life of me, I can't understand as much impact as "the chart" had on 1. the AR-15 industry, 2. the mindset of the AR-15 community, why the complimentary material goes ignored.

The ONLY value I saw out of M4C.net and the chart was "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better! So much valuable information in that post, yet the whole "tier 1" (for lack of a better term) elitist still forcefeed Colt/LMT/BCM/DD/KAC and attack anyone who doesn't agree.

As far as value in the Colt 6920 price range...? Yeah, for +/- $1000 it is the best value around for outdated technology. IMO a 4140 midlength upper on a forged lower with a MIL-STD receiver extension and BCG PROPERLY ASSEMBLED under $1000 will be a better value than than any Colt 6920.
The chart had mixed benefits. On one hand, it allowed people to be informed of what they were buying. On the other hand, it caused manufacturers to cater toward the bare minimum for that "check" in the chart. The result was many manufacturers touting themselves as "mil-spec" even though other corners were still cut.

If there was a rifle that was identical to a Colt in every other way but gas-length and barrel, it may be a better deal. There, to my knowledge, is not. Most of the other companies have issues with chamber specs and gas port sizes (among a myriad of other things) while still meeting all those things on the "chart" that so many people put faith in.
__________________
"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."

-Haile Selassie I
WayaX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 19:15   #31
LA_357SIG
Milspectacular
 
LA_357SIG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Not Los Angeles.
Posts: 1,224
Maybe saying "better value than any Colt 6920" isn't the idea I wanted to convey. A better terminology is a midlength upper with a melonited or treated medium profile barrel, quality 158CS BCG, MIL-STD receiver extension, properly assembled for less than $1000 would be an excellent value for a civilian over the antiquated carbine length Colt 6920.

I'll leave my original post unedited, but all who focus on the "better than Colt" remark be forewarned. I don't care. Knock yourself out.
__________________
"If I was you I would keep it just like it is... and shoot the **** out of it until something breaks. Then replace whatever it is and keep shooting."

Last edited by LA_357SIG; 11-12-2012 at 19:20..
LA_357SIG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 19:45   #32
Walk Soft
Senior Member
 
Walk Soft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,260
I was the author of one of those threads.(WW or Colt).I'm knowledgeable about pistols and bolt action guns because that's what I practice with and utilize.Even though I had two AK varients and two ARs(DoubleStar and DPMS) before I posed the question,I never really had that much interest in them.They were just a base I covered in my gun ownership.Once I realized the possibility of not being able to buy another in the future,I decided to get a higher quality AR.
Genuinely not knowing what was what is why I asked.I've since purchased a ColtLE6920 and put 800 rounds through the iron sights.Now I'm pondering a new thread "Aimpoint vs. Vortex".
Sorry to have pissed in your Cheerios.
Walk Soft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 19:55   #33
mjkeat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,450
I'd like to see an Aimpoint Vs. Vortex. It would be interesting.
mjkeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 20:06   #34
Walk Soft
Senior Member
 
Walk Soft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
I'd like to see an Aimpoint Vs. Vortex. It would be interesting.
I actually already own both(Aimpoint Pro and Vortex Strikefire).I just got the Pro a couple weeks ago.I just thought it fitting.Honestly, I can't tell the difference functionally,except that the Pro's batterys last longer and the Vortex has a screw on 3x magnifier.
Walk Soft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 20:38   #35
mjkeat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,450
I'm not sure what Vortex you have but I'm sure there are a few more differences than longer battery life. I'm a fan of Vortex. Their magnified optics are a great value. But the Aimpoints duraility and othe features are yet to be topped.
mjkeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 21:55   #36
QNman
Silver Membership
resU deretsigeR
 
QNman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.
I bought my first Colt (though not my first AR) this past Saturday... At Wal Mart.
__________________
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

TERM LIMITS NOW!!!
QNman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 03:14   #37
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 07:11   #38
LL6
Senior Member
 
LL6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Off I-40, NC
Posts: 1,540
Well said BB.
__________________
Mike
G26
LL6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 08:56   #39
cyphertext
Senior Member
 
cyphertext's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
I want to see links to the $700 complete rifles.
This one went up $20 in the past few days, but still ball park.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...m-carbine.html

Out of stock at the moment, but typically found for $600 - $650

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ion&key=811036
cyphertext is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 09:32   #40
GSSF17
...2 of 'em
 
GSSF17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...
Perfect.

/thread
__________________
-Rimfire Club#1097 -Florida Glockers Club#1097 -Black Rifle Club #1097 -Certified Glock Armorer

RIP John Noveske- 1976 - 2013
GSSF17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 09:57   #41
ArmoryDoc
Need a haircut
 
ArmoryDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,849
For a shooter wanting the best, consistent quality in an AR, it's the following...

Colt, BCM, LMT, Larue, Noveske, Daniel Defense (no particular order).

The other "common" mfg.'s are below the quality mentioned above. For anyone "serious" about getting the better gun, the above is it.
ArmoryDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 10:04   #42
Walk Soft
Senior Member
 
Walk Soft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...
So why even have a Black Rifle Forum if we can't discuss the idiosyncracies of them?
Walk Soft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 10:16   #43
LL6
Senior Member
 
LL6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Off I-40, NC
Posts: 1,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walk Soft View Post
So why even have a Black Rifle Forum if we can't discuss the idiosyncracies of them?
Because they don't stay as discussions they turn into flame fests.
__________________
Mike
G26
LL6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 10:17   #44
Gunnut 45/454
Senior Member
 
Gunnut 45/454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 14,038
Big Bird
I personally have never shot out a rifle other then a 22LR that I got when I was 16. It final gave up the ghoust last year. It actually isn't shot out had a internal part break and can't be fixed- rifle actually still shoots an is still as accurate as the day I bought it -with probably with over 100000 rounds down the pipe. Now I've shot some M16's that were very much used. Still fuctional. But well used. Still never stopped me from quailifing as Marksman. Most people will never shoot out a rifle . I personally don't worry about that. With most AR's rated for 20000+ rounds 99% of AR owners will not either!
__________________
Gunnut45/454-One shot one kill!
Gunnut 45/454 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 10:19   #45
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by LL6 View Post
Because they don't stay as discussions they turn into flame fests.
"Yes they do!!!"

"No they don't"

"I said they do.....so shut up!"

"Screw you dude, I'm not gonna shut up....YOU shut up!!"

__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC – 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 10:37   #46
LL6
Senior Member
 
LL6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Off I-40, NC
Posts: 1,540
I think some people are taking what BB said the wrong way. Rather than arguing about fly speck enjoy your damn rifles and shoot them.

Also what Gunnut said reminded me of 1979 basic training at Ft Dicks, NJ the only place I vividly remember seeing worn out M16s. My lizard of an M16 barely had any finish left on it. Don't remember the rifling well enough to comment. You could measure the degree of left to right slop between the upper and lower receivers almost in double digits. It was so loose it rattled and clattered when slung over my shoulder during road marches, but it shot well. At least well enough for me to shoot expert on silhouette targets out to 300yds (or was it meters?).

The good ol days.
__________________
Mike
G26
LL6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 14:28   #47
LA_357SIG
Milspectacular
 
LA_357SIG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Not Los Angeles.
Posts: 1,224
While we are here already, here's a direct price comparison:

$1097 Colt 6920 from Walmart. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$1099 Troy Defense Carbine from DICK's Sporting Goods. C/L CMV barrel
$1099 (MSRP) BCM M4 Carbine Mod 0 11595-E C/L spec barrel
$865 (MSRP) ST-15 16" M4 LE Carbine direct from SPIKES. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$799 (MSRP) PSA M4 Premium MOE Carbine direct from PSA. C/L CMV barrel.

So 2 carbines for $2 over the going rate for a Colt 6920, One exactly the same (BCM) and another one with a CMV barrel and lots of aftermarket accessories (TROY), why is Colt the better choice "if you have to ask?" 2 other brands costing less than the 6920, one with the exact same specs (SPIKE's) and the other with a CMV barrel (PSA) costing $230 less. Colt may be "the minimum standard," but aside from CMV barrels, I don't see the value/cost of buying a plain jane Colt over anything else available on the market today. I truly believe CMV barrels will outlast even the most enthusiastic civilian shooters needs, so getting "the best military standard" barrel isn't on the high list of importance to me. IMO
__________________
"If I was you I would keep it just like it is... and shoot the **** out of it until something breaks. Then replace whatever it is and keep shooting."
LA_357SIG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 17:07   #48
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA_357SIG View Post
While we are here already, here's a direct price comparison:

$1097 Colt 6920 from Walmart. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$1099 Troy Defense Carbine from DICK's Sporting Goods. C/L CMV barrel
$1099 (MSRP) BCM M4 Carbine Mod 0 11595-E C/L spec barrel
$865 (MSRP) ST-15 16" M4 LE Carbine direct from SPIKES. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$799 (MSRP) PSA M4 Premium MOE Carbine direct from PSA. C/L CMV barrel.

So 2 carbines for $2 over the going rate for a Colt 6920, One exactly the same (BCM) and another one with a CMV barrel and lots of aftermarket accessories (TROY), why is Colt the better choice "if you have to ask?" 2 other brands costing less than the 6920, one with the exact same specs (SPIKE's) and the other with a CMV barrel (PSA) costing $230 less. Colt may be "the minimum standard," but aside from CMV barrels, I don't see the value/cost of buying a plain jane Colt over anything else available on the market today. I truly believe CMV barrels will outlast even the most enthusiastic civilian shooters needs, so getting "the best military standard" barrel isn't on the high list of importance to me. IMO
Don't know if they still have them but PSA had an M4 clone WITH an Aimpoint PRO and Mount all for $999.

I just built a gun on a PSA lower with a PSA/FN made barrel/BCM Blemished upper/and LMT enhanced bolt w/ std carrier. . The upper had been flawless on my old Bushhamster lower. I've got three guns I built using Noveske lowers and I gotta tell ya...the PSA blem lower I used on my latest rifle at $59 looks to be on par with the $199 Noveske lowers. It certainly went together without issues. In terms of finish there certainly isn't $150 difference--really not a .05 difference from what I can see.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 17:23   #49
mvician
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
mvician's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 3,318
Blog Entries: 1
For the most part, a in spec forged lower is a in spec forged lower. It's what you put in them that matters.
__________________
Be a man, grow your BEARD
mvician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 17:27   #50
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,039
I guess what I'm telling you folks is when you have seen as many broken and worn out Colt rifles as I have you quickly realize they really aren't much different than any other AR. Sorry if that upsets your apple cart. But I've got experience with the things that runs into the hundreds of rifles, dozens and dozens of qualification ranges, two combat tours etc. Colt's as good as it gets when it comes to ARs--but there are a ton of rifles that are as good with uppers and lowers made by the same foundries, BCG's made by the same contractors, pins and springs made by the same sub contractors etc for not as much money.

I piss off the AK fans too when I tell them how many hundreds of abandoned/inoperable AK's I have come across on the battlefield or taken from prisoners. You know--the gun that never breaks--always functions--and a monkey can maintain. The AK isn't the infallible pillar of reliability its made out to be--least not from what I've seen.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:04.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,062
290 Members
772 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42