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Old 11-12-2012, 13:28   #21
WayaX
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Back when there were nothing but junk rifles in the $700 range, that would concern me. Now that there are viable alternatives for as low as $700, I take no issue with a buyer who saves a few $.
Your argument for good rifles in the $700 range is deceptive then, too. I don't see PSA, Spikes, or M&P Sports locally. Therefore the argument of good rifles in the $700 range must be a lie.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:30   #22
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I want to see links to the $700 complete rifles.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:32   #23
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Originally Posted by WayaX View Post
Sportsman's Warehouse, and Wal-Mart are both selling Colt's, several local gun stores sell them around here as well. This thread isn't about Colt being the best choice for all people.
Once again, you make the erroneous assumption that every market is the same as the market where you are. It simply is not that way. In the markets where the shipping and FFL fees make a Colt cost $100 more than one costs in your area, while other brands are sitting on the shelf for $300-$400 less, the value/trade off equation shifts.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:35   #24
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:36   #25
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Your argument for good rifles in the $700 range is deceptive then, too. I don't see PSA, Spikes, or M&P Sports locally. Therefore the argument of good rifles in the $700 range must be a lie.
In your area, Colt rifles may be the way to go. I did not write that $700 rifles were best for everyone. Once again, you are distorting the truth.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:40   #26
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In your area, Colt rifles may be the way to go. I did not write that $700 rifles were best for everyone.
And I didn't write that Colt's were. In fact, if a Colt 6920 went above $1200, I would say that there are many better deals. With the election behind us and the panic buying possibly starting, and people jacking Colts up to $1900 like before, then a Colt would certainly not be a good choice. So yes, everything does hinge on price and availability.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:49   #27
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And I didn't write that Colt's were. In fact, if a Colt 6920 went above $1200, I would say that there are many better deals. With the election behind us and the panic buying possibly starting, and people jacking Colts up to $1900 like before, then a Colt would certainly not be a good choice. So yes, everything does hinge on price and availability.
Uh, when you wrote that in deciding between rifle x and a colt, the x did not represent a variable of a rifle of a differing brand? You did not put forth the conclusion that the Colt was always the better choice?

Within the very broad parameters of 800-1100 bucks, that is exactly what you wrote. I am glad to see you getting to the point where you acknowledge that availability, as well as $100 difference in price, can change the trade-off equation enough to allow other choices to be considered rational.
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Old 11-12-2012, 14:03   #28
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Uh, when you wrote that in deciding between rifle x and a colt, the x did not represent a variable of a rifle of a differing brand? You did not put forth the conclusion that the Colt was always the better choice?

Within the very broad parameters of 800-1100 bucks, that is exactly what you wrote. I am glad to see you getting to the point where you acknowledge that availability, as well as $100 difference in price, can change the trade-off equation enough to allow other choices to be considered rational.
My point is that if that people who make threads of "brand x vs. Colt" are better off picking the Colt between the two. This assumes, in making the thread, that a Colt is not a monetary stretch, is available (and associated costs of shipping have been factored in). Threads that compare M&P sports to Colts (not your testing thread), are not common, as the Sport and Colt are typically marketed to two different groups of people.

While I would never buy something like an M&P sport, I actually really appreciate what they do for the AR-15 community. The more people involved in "black rifles" the better.

Other companies, such as Windham, try to market themselves as "as good as" Colts, when in reality, they are most likely not (due to a variety of reasons). It's these threads that I state that the only choice, between the two, is Colt.

Most of the "brand x vs. Colt" threads are usually like this. Some local gun being sold at a hideous mark up ($800 Bushmaster/DPMS/RRA) has been touted by an employee as being good quality, but some poor sap has also heard that Colt makes "the best" M4. Money savings or not, paying $800 for a "mid-tier" rifle, when better are available in the $600-$700 range AFTER shipping and fees, is like paying $30,000 for a Hyundai.

I got my $800 part because there is a cap in what I consider to be good rifles between $800-900. Generally there are good bargains for plinking rifles in the $600-$70 range, but once you hit the $800 mark, things don't become worth the cost.
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Old 11-12-2012, 19:27   #29
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Firearms technology has improved since the 1990's when the M4 was developed. Colt may hold the title of "minimum standard" but there are companies that match and exceed that standard. The standards that Colt and the Army developed and subsequent revisions were applicable for the FA/3RB M4 and successors. Issues civilian AR-15's will rarely encounter. For the life of me, I can't understand as much impact as "the chart" had on 1. the AR-15 industry, 2. the mindset of the AR-15 community, why the complimentary material goes ignored.

The ONLY value I saw out of M4C.net and the chart was "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better! So much valuable information in that post, yet the whole "tier 1" (for lack of a better term) elitist still forcefeed Colt/LMT/BCM/DD/KAC and attack anyone who doesn't agree.

As far as value in the Colt 6920 price range...? Yeah, for +/- $1000 it is the best value around for outdated technology. IMO a 4140 midlength upper on a forged lower with a MIL-STD receiver extension and BCG PROPERLY ASSEMBLED under $1000 will be a better value than than any Colt 6920.
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Old 11-12-2012, 19:34   #30
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Firearms technology has improved since the 1990's when the M4 was developed. Colt may hold the title of "minimum standard" but there are companies that match and exceed that standard. The standards that Colt and the Army developed and subsequent revisions were applicable for the FA/3RB M4 and successors. Issues civilian AR-15's will rarely encounter. For the life of me, I can't understand as much impact as "the chart" had on 1. the AR-15 industry, 2. the mindset of the AR-15 community, why the complimentary material goes ignored.

The ONLY value I saw out of M4C.net and the chart was "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better! So much valuable information in that post, yet the whole "tier 1" (for lack of a better term) elitist still forcefeed Colt/LMT/BCM/DD/KAC and attack anyone who doesn't agree.

As far as value in the Colt 6920 price range...? Yeah, for +/- $1000 it is the best value around for outdated technology. IMO a 4140 midlength upper on a forged lower with a MIL-STD receiver extension and BCG PROPERLY ASSEMBLED under $1000 will be a better value than than any Colt 6920.
The chart had mixed benefits. On one hand, it allowed people to be informed of what they were buying. On the other hand, it caused manufacturers to cater toward the bare minimum for that "check" in the chart. The result was many manufacturers touting themselves as "mil-spec" even though other corners were still cut.

If there was a rifle that was identical to a Colt in every other way but gas-length and barrel, it may be a better deal. There, to my knowledge, is not. Most of the other companies have issues with chamber specs and gas port sizes (among a myriad of other things) while still meeting all those things on the "chart" that so many people put faith in.
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Old 11-12-2012, 20:15   #31
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Maybe saying "better value than any Colt 6920" isn't the idea I wanted to convey. A better terminology is a midlength upper with a melonited or treated medium profile barrel, quality 158CS BCG, MIL-STD receiver extension, properly assembled for less than $1000 would be an excellent value for a civilian over the antiquated carbine length Colt 6920.

I'll leave my original post unedited, but all who focus on the "better than Colt" remark be forewarned. I don't care. Knock yourself out.
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Old 11-12-2012, 20:45   #32
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I was the author of one of those threads.(WW or Colt).I'm knowledgeable about pistols and bolt action guns because that's what I practice with and utilize.Even though I had two AK varients and two ARs(DoubleStar and DPMS) before I posed the question,I never really had that much interest in them.They were just a base I covered in my gun ownership.Once I realized the possibility of not being able to buy another in the future,I decided to get a higher quality AR.
Genuinely not knowing what was what is why I asked.I've since purchased a ColtLE6920 and put 800 rounds through the iron sights.Now I'm pondering a new thread "Aimpoint vs. Vortex".
Sorry to have pissed in your Cheerios.
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Old 11-12-2012, 20:55   #33
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I'd like to see an Aimpoint Vs. Vortex. It would be interesting.
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Old 11-12-2012, 21:06   #34
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I'd like to see an Aimpoint Vs. Vortex. It would be interesting.
I actually already own both(Aimpoint Pro and Vortex Strikefire).I just got the Pro a couple weeks ago.I just thought it fitting.Honestly, I can't tell the difference functionally,except that the Pro's batterys last longer and the Vortex has a screw on 3x magnifier.
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Old 11-12-2012, 21:38   #35
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I'm not sure what Vortex you have but I'm sure there are a few more differences than longer battery life. I'm a fan of Vortex. Their magnified optics are a great value. But the Aimpoints duraility and othe features are yet to be topped.
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Old 11-12-2012, 22:55   #36
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WayaX,

I have never seen a Colt rifle for sale in either a gun store or a Wal Mart. Many Wal Mart stores do not even sell guns. Once again it is obvious that most of your argument is based upon deception, rather than reality.

Your analysis of how people make trade-offs when evaluating economic choices is at odds with 200 years of economic research. Sure, Barak Obama and Warren Buffet may be willing to pay more than they have to, but most folks are not.
I bought my first Colt (though not my first AR) this past Saturday... At Wal Mart.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:14   #37
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How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:11   #38
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Well said BB.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:56   #39
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I want to see links to the $700 complete rifles.
This one went up $20 in the past few days, but still ball park.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...m-carbine.html

Out of stock at the moment, but typically found for $600 - $650

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ion&key=811036
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:32   #40
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How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...
Perfect.

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