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Old 11-13-2012, 10:57   #41
ArmoryDoc
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For a shooter wanting the best, consistent quality in an AR, it's the following...

Colt, BCM, LMT, Larue, Noveske, Daniel Defense (no particular order).

The other "common" mfg.'s are below the quality mentioned above. For anyone "serious" about getting the better gun, the above is it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:04   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
How many of you people have actually worn out a gun before?

How many have had a gun go down in combat?

How many of you have experience maintaining and inspecting a couple hundred rifles in an arms room?

How many of you have degrees in advanced metallurgy and can explain to me the range of heat treatment option available to various AR15 component metals and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those treatments?

How many of you just parrot a bunch of crap you read on the internet?

These brand discussions are retarded. Go shoot your gun...
So why even have a Black Rifle Forum if we can't discuss the idiosyncracies of them?
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:16   #43
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So why even have a Black Rifle Forum if we can't discuss the idiosyncracies of them?
Because they don't stay as discussions they turn into flame fests.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:17   #44
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I personally have never shot out a rifle other then a 22LR that I got when I was 16. It final gave up the ghoust last year. It actually isn't shot out had a internal part break and can't be fixed- rifle actually still shoots an is still as accurate as the day I bought it -with probably with over 100000 rounds down the pipe. Now I've shot some M16's that were very much used. Still fuctional. But well used. Still never stopped me from quailifing as Marksman. Most people will never shoot out a rifle . I personally don't worry about that. With most AR's rated for 20000+ rounds 99% of AR owners will not either!
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:19   #45
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Because they don't stay as discussions they turn into flame fests.
"Yes they do!!!"

"No they don't"

"I said they do.....so shut up!"

"Screw you dude, I'm not gonna shut up....YOU shut up!!"

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Old 11-13-2012, 11:37   #46
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I think some people are taking what BB said the wrong way. Rather than arguing about fly speck enjoy your damn rifles and shoot them.

Also what Gunnut said reminded me of 1979 basic training at Ft Dicks, NJ the only place I vividly remember seeing worn out M16s. My lizard of an M16 barely had any finish left on it. Don't remember the rifling well enough to comment. You could measure the degree of left to right slop between the upper and lower receivers almost in double digits. It was so loose it rattled and clattered when slung over my shoulder during road marches, but it shot well. At least well enough for me to shoot expert on silhouette targets out to 300yds (or was it meters?).

The good ol days.
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Old 11-13-2012, 15:28   #47
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While we are here already, here's a direct price comparison:

$1097 Colt 6920 from Walmart. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$1099 Troy Defense Carbine from DICK's Sporting Goods. C/L CMV barrel
$1099 (MSRP) BCM M4 Carbine Mod 0 11595-E C/L spec barrel
$865 (MSRP) ST-15 16" M4 LE Carbine direct from SPIKES. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$799 (MSRP) PSA M4 Premium MOE Carbine direct from PSA. C/L CMV barrel.

So 2 carbines for $2 over the going rate for a Colt 6920, One exactly the same (BCM) and another one with a CMV barrel and lots of aftermarket accessories (TROY), why is Colt the better choice "if you have to ask?" 2 other brands costing less than the 6920, one with the exact same specs (SPIKE's) and the other with a CMV barrel (PSA) costing $230 less. Colt may be "the minimum standard," but aside from CMV barrels, I don't see the value/cost of buying a plain jane Colt over anything else available on the market today. I truly believe CMV barrels will outlast even the most enthusiastic civilian shooters needs, so getting "the best military standard" barrel isn't on the high list of importance to me. IMO
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Old 11-13-2012, 18:07   #48
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Originally Posted by LA_357SIG View Post
While we are here already, here's a direct price comparison:

$1097 Colt 6920 from Walmart. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$1099 Troy Defense Carbine from DICK's Sporting Goods. C/L CMV barrel
$1099 (MSRP) BCM M4 Carbine Mod 0 11595-E C/L spec barrel
$865 (MSRP) ST-15 16" M4 LE Carbine direct from SPIKES. C/L 11595-E spec barrel
$799 (MSRP) PSA M4 Premium MOE Carbine direct from PSA. C/L CMV barrel.

So 2 carbines for $2 over the going rate for a Colt 6920, One exactly the same (BCM) and another one with a CMV barrel and lots of aftermarket accessories (TROY), why is Colt the better choice "if you have to ask?" 2 other brands costing less than the 6920, one with the exact same specs (SPIKE's) and the other with a CMV barrel (PSA) costing $230 less. Colt may be "the minimum standard," but aside from CMV barrels, I don't see the value/cost of buying a plain jane Colt over anything else available on the market today. I truly believe CMV barrels will outlast even the most enthusiastic civilian shooters needs, so getting "the best military standard" barrel isn't on the high list of importance to me. IMO
Don't know if they still have them but PSA had an M4 clone WITH an Aimpoint PRO and Mount all for $999.

I just built a gun on a PSA lower with a PSA/FN made barrel/BCM Blemished upper/and LMT enhanced bolt w/ std carrier. . The upper had been flawless on my old Bushhamster lower. I've got three guns I built using Noveske lowers and I gotta tell ya...the PSA blem lower I used on my latest rifle at $59 looks to be on par with the $199 Noveske lowers. It certainly went together without issues. In terms of finish there certainly isn't $150 difference--really not a .05 difference from what I can see.
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Old 11-13-2012, 18:23   #49
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For the most part, a in spec forged lower is a in spec forged lower. It's what you put in them that matters.
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Old 11-13-2012, 18:27   #50
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I guess what I'm telling you folks is when you have seen as many broken and worn out Colt rifles as I have you quickly realize they really aren't much different than any other AR. Sorry if that upsets your apple cart. But I've got experience with the things that runs into the hundreds of rifles, dozens and dozens of qualification ranges, two combat tours etc. Colt's as good as it gets when it comes to ARs--but there are a ton of rifles that are as good with uppers and lowers made by the same foundries, BCG's made by the same contractors, pins and springs made by the same sub contractors etc for not as much money.

I piss off the AK fans too when I tell them how many hundreds of abandoned/inoperable AK's I have come across on the battlefield or taken from prisoners. You know--the gun that never breaks--always functions--and a monkey can maintain. The AK isn't the infallible pillar of reliability its made out to be--least not from what I've seen.
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:23   #51
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Hell my trainer at Basic didn't have a lick of finish on it '80! The only thing black was the buttstock. And that was cause they had just replaced it cause it was cracked!
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:12   #52
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Those were some worn out rifles.

A-1-3 SSGs Rivera and Sampson were my drills.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:34   #53
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I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.

Last edited by fuzzy03cls; 11-14-2012 at 08:37..
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:33   #54
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I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.
How so? Details please. We can throw out "just as good as" all day but it means nothing w/o details.

Just because something will "do the job" doesn't mean it is as good as everything else. I had a guy that would get the job done but he took coaching and I wasn't always certain he'd actually get it done correctly or in a timely manner. I had guys who could get the job done as well but didn't require coaching. In fact I would tell them once and know the job was getting done in stellar fashion each and every time. Theres different levels of "do the job."
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:47   #55
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Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls View Post
I'll take my personal experience over the internet any day.
DPMS did everything my 6920 did
Bushmaster did almost everything my 6920 did(it choked on wolf ammo)
Spikes upper on the DPMS lower, did everything the 6920 did
BCM upper(3 of them) on a LMT lower did everything the 6920 did
CMMG upper on the bushmaster lower did everything the 6920 did
And these were not lightly used 100rd/year rifles. I have sold most of my stuff cause I can't afford it any longer, but the reality is for most people not LE or in the sandbox any modern off the shelf AR(or combination of uppers/lowers) will do the job.
I've heard the same from people I know.

Oddly enough, from the shooter perspective, if there aren't any physical differences like hand guards or length, you cannot really tell whether you are shooting Bushmaster, RR, Colt, or BCM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:54   #56
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I've heard the same from people I know.

Oddly enough, from the shooter perspective, if there aren't any physical differences like hand guards or length, you cannot really tell whether you are shooting Bushmaster, RR, Colt, or BCM.
What experiences bring you to that conclusion?

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Old 11-14-2012, 12:02   #57
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Where can I buy a Colt for $800?
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:09   #58
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How many times have threads been created to express dissatisfaction w/ PSA in all forms from shipping times, wrong parts shipped, messed up feed ramps, canted FSPs, etc. Now ask yourself the same question about BCM, DD, and Colt.
I've seen plenty of threads about shipping problems with PSA. I've seen very few about actual quality problems with their products. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but there are for ALL manufacturers if you really wanna look.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:11   #59
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This **** again?

I guess when you've been in the black rifle game for 50 years this is bound to happen. No, Colt isnt the best. They are just the most combat proven and that in itself is worth the price to some people.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:23   #60
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I truly believe your use will dictate your need. "The best" is different for different people. Some people, like myself, like the idea of owning a military replica. But some other people just want to be able to plink and if their rifle shoots as many bullets down range as my Colt without failure then it is the best for them. I know I will never need a go to war gun because I personally will not go to war (political theories and uprisings aside).

Is Colt better than x, y, and z? Depends on who you ask and who is paying. My guns are the best for me because I was able to afford them and can play with them. At one point a Glock pistol was the best for me because it was all I knew and could afford. Now I think it's a Sig or any American 1911. Tomorrow it might be an HK or an FN. But it's the best to me because it fits my needs and financial requirements.

Who cares what other people are buying. Leave them alone.


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