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Old 11-20-2012, 20:58   #1
Cole125
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Will over tightening muzzle device damage barrel?

Just installed a Battlecomp 1.0 on one of my rifles, and it took a lot of force to get the logo in the correct 6 o clock position.

My question is this, will over tightening a muzzle device damage your barrel? Is it at all possible?
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Old 11-20-2012, 21:25   #2
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Did you use a crush washer or spacers?
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Old 11-20-2012, 21:47   #3
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Included crush washer
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Old 11-20-2012, 21:54   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole125 View Post
Included crush washer
You can torque and back off, torque and back off to slowly crush the crush washer down to get it timed.

I doubt you did any damage, though.
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Old 11-20-2012, 22:20   #5
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You can torque and back off, torque and back off to slowly crush the crush washer down to get it timed.

I doubt you did any damage, though.
That's what I did, but towards the end it took at lot of force. Maybe I am being a little OCD, but just wanted to see what the crew here had to say.

Would it be possible even if your tried to damage a barrel over tightening the muzzle device, just out of curiosity?
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Old 11-20-2012, 23:57   #6
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Yeah, you could twist your barrel out of true. You'll need to shoot it and check POI.
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Old 11-21-2012, 00:09   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole125 View Post
Would it be possible even if your tried to damage a barrel over tightening the muzzle device, just out of curiosity?
Yes. I had an 18" Noveske SPR barrel that I took to a 'gunsmith' to have a PWS brake installed. I would have normally done it myself but I was on the road and in a hurry to get it on and re-sight just prior to a competition. Long story short, the guy neglected to mount the peel washers and hulked out, torquing on the brake in an attempt to get it to cam up. The rifle went from shooting an honest .3 MOA to just over 1.25. Afterwards, I took it to my regular 'smith. He told me that the last bit of the muzzle had been squeezed down by about .001".

I had to have the barrel cut and recrowned to fix the problem. Live and learn, I suppose.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:40   #8
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Doubt you over tightened it. How did you secure the barrel?
Did you use a barrel block in a vise? Tweaking the pin or receiver
would be my 1st concern.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:42   #9
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Doubt you over tightened it. How did you secure the barrel?
Did you use a barrel block in a vise? Tweaking the pin or receiver
would be my 1st concern.
I secured the upper in a Brownells clam shell vice block, in my vice.

I took the Battlecomp off today to check the end of the barrel threads, and everything looks fine. Hopefully it is. Putting it back on was much easier with the crush washer crushed to the rear.

Last edited by Cole125; 11-21-2012 at 10:43..
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:14   #10
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Quote post #7 (quoting doesn't work)


I don't think a barrel deviation of .001" is noticable at 100 yards not even at 800 yards. There are too many other factors which affect a shot by far more.

All my brand new Daniel Defense barrels are slighty bent. The deviation ranges from 0.02-0.04mm about .0015".
This is normal even on high end barrels. The barrel deviation can be easily calculated. It's also pretty easy to calculated how much the barrel deviation will be at, 5 yards, 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 250 yards, 1000 yards and so on.

If the barrel is 50cm long (19.6") and has a deviation of 0.03 mm (~.001") you have to multiply the barrel length ~times 2, to get the barrel length close to 1 meter for easy and sufficient accurate calculation. Which gives you a barrel deviation of 0.06 mm (~.003") at 1 meter. From then on it's easy. Just multyply the one meter barrel deviation times your target range.

Say, (0.03mm x 300meter= 9mm) Point of impact deviated 9mm (.035") away from the bore axis at 300 meter (~328 yards)

0.001" x 100 meter = 0.1" Point of impact deviated 0.1"/0.1 MOA away from the bore axis at 100 meters (~109 yards)

0.001" x 800 meter = 0.8 inch

What I am trying to say is that, human aiming errors, wind, bullet drop and other factors play a much bigger role than a slightly bent barrel. Slightly bent barrels are as accurate as a perfectly straight barrel. You just have to zero it in.

It's pretty simple to check the barrel straightness in your kitchen with no expensive equipment. All you need is a straight granit counter top and a feeler gauge for a few $.

Just turn the barrel on your counter top on the same spot. The reason to turn it on the same spot is to cancel out any unevenness of the counter top. While you turn it try to keep the muzzle as close as possible to the surface of the counter top, so that just a little bit of light goes through between the counter and the barrel, also the middle of the barrel should be supported with something to elevate the muzzle if needed. My barrels have a gas block stop/ring machined into them. You will see now with your bare eyes that your barrel is bent! Your eye can see a wobble of only 0.01 mm. Now stick a filler gauge between the counter and the barrel to check the deviation. Please note that a bent barrel on the outside does not always mean that the bore is off too.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 11-21-2012 at 11:53..
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:01   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole125 View Post
That's what I did, but towards the end it took at lot of force. Maybe I am being a little OCD, but just wanted to see what the crew here had to say.

Would it be possible even if your tried to damage a barrel over tightening the muzzle device, just out of curiosity?

After you hand tightened the muzzle device with crush washer on it. How many degrees approximately did you turn it with your tool? Also, what was the approximate leverage between your hand and the muzzle when you tightened it down?

Last edited by Made in Austria; 11-21-2012 at 12:03..
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Old 11-21-2012, 13:39   #12
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It isn't that over tightening the muzzle device "bends" the barrel so much as it can make the muzzle end more "out of round" or non-concentric. By stretching out the barrel threads at the muzzle you can basically create a "trumpet bell" effect on the muzzle which can be noticeably detrimental to a precision rifles accuracy. How much torque or how much out of round you make the muzzle end can vary. Now I have still seen noticeable effects on accuracy in a battle grade type barrel but a true precision barrel can really suffer.

So in essence, yes you can damage a barrel by over torquing the device. As has been mentioned a 1/4 turn on a crush washer and backing it off will give you about 1/8" of play. In reality crush washers while simple are not the best method, especially when talking about precision. But that is really splitting hairs.
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Old 11-21-2012, 15:16   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
Quote post # 7
Good post. I agree that a barrel that isn't perfectly true isn't that big a deal at when it comes to accuracy so long as it remains consistent. Accuracy is nothing more than consistency.

But I wasnt clear in my previous post. In my case, the straightness of the barrel isn't the issue. The issue was that the excessive torque on the muzzle device was enough to cause significant changes in the concentricity of the muzzle. Portions of my muzzle were crushed inward by .001", causing the rifling to contact the bullet irregularly. The bullets were being disturbed just as they left the barrel. That's what killed my accuracy.
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Old 11-21-2012, 15:18   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surf View Post
It isn't that over tightening the muzzle device "bends" the barrel so much as it can make the muzzle end more "out of round" or non-concentric. By stretching out the barrel threads at the muzzle you can basically create a "trumpet bell" effect on the muzzle which can be noticeably detrimental to a precision rifles accuracy. How much torque or how much out of round you make the muzzle end can vary. Now I have still seen noticeable effects on accuracy in a battle grade type barrel but a true precision barrel can really suffer.

So in essence, yes you can damage a barrel by over torquing the device. As has been mentioned a 1/4 turn on a crush washer and backing it off will give you about 1/8" of play. In reality crush washers while simple are not the best method, especially when talking about precision. But that is really splitting hairs.
Excellent post. Sorry I missed it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 20:31   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
After you hand tightened the muzzle device with crush washer on it. How many degrees approximately did you turn it with your tool? Also, what was the approximate leverage between your hand and the muzzle when you tightened it down?
After I hand tightened the Battlecomp, I tightened it in about 1/4 turns, backed off, and tried again until I got it in the correct spot.

The proof is in the pudding I guess, if I take it to the range and can get sub MOA groups(Noveske RECON barrel), I'll know I didn't **** up.

surf, great info, thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-21-2012, 20:54   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole125 View Post
After I hand tightened the Battlecomp, I tightened it in about 1/4 turns, backed off, and tried again until I got it in the correct spot.

The proof is in the pudding I guess, if I take it to the range and can get sub MOA groups(Noveske RECON barrel), I'll know I didn't **** up.

surf, great info, thanks for sharing.
You are 100% fine there. You are not able to overtighten stretch something with 1/4 turns.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 11-21-2012 at 21:14..
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:32   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole125 View Post
I secured the upper in a Brownells clam shell vice block, in my vice.

I took the Battlecomp off today to check the end of the barrel threads, and everything looks fine. Hopefully it is. Putting it back on was much easier with the crush washer crushed to the rear.
A barrel vice is much better option.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:37   #18
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Really no dog in this fight HOWEVER I have read that over-tightening can affect barrel harmonics and accuracy..some competition shooters use Lock-Tite, no crush washer and do not allow the device touch barrel face at end of threaded portion.

I'm just an old trigger puller, paper puncher and sometimes prairie dog shooter.

Best.
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