[OlliesRevenge]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

I dont think you realize how you come off...and it isnt good sometimes.

I have a similar problem but I often dont care. You seem like you do.

I'm careful not to say anything on the Internet that would land me in trouble in reality. That said, I think you and I are similar in that we largely don't care (not to seem too cavalier).

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by czsmithGT

It's pretty well documented that in 1934 a geophysical mining engineer discovered subterranean labyrinths beneath Los Angeles to an underground city built by an advanced race of "Lizard People" to escape surface catastrophes some 5,000 years ago. I read it on the Internet so it must be true.

[Haldor]

Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape

Yes, Devildog, aka Steven Won, has his PhD in Elementary Particle Physics and has worked at CERN.

-ArtificialGrape

This is him.



http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steven-won/48/539/470

And the point he was trying to make is really pretty simple. You don't have to be a scientist to understand it. The universe is an expanding bubble of matter and energy. We have a reasonably accurate idea of how long ago it was created and we also have a general idea of how fast it is expanding, ergo we have an idea of how big the universe is. Beyond that region is not the universe (we have no idea what it is). The universe is not infinite in size.

[OlliesRevenge]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

No, 0 is 0.

You are trying to define the arbitrary symbol for it as something. The arbitrary symbol just represents it. We have to have a way to define the absence of something. Nothing is nothing (assuming it is nothing)

The other side of that is Time. You are trying to define something quantum(or beyond quantum) with a Newtonian understanding.

Ill bet Devildog has a better parable than this (again this is his field) but if time doesnt exist, there is no existence. Our expanding universe "triggers" time as it expands and thus the bubble of what is grows. Beyond that point, there is nothing.

You're probably right, maybe I'm a little too grounded in "Newtonian" thinking to really understand the problem. But doesn't infinity exist up and down? You can always double the size of something, and you can always reduce its size by 50%, to infinity in either direction, right? How can I think "quantumly" in order to understand that there is an end to our something (our universe)? Don't some of the best and brightest minds in the world of quantum physics actually disagree on this issue?

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge

You're probably right, maybe I'm a little too grounded in "Newtonian" thinking to really understand the problem. But doesn't infinity exist up and down? You can always double the size of something, and you can always reduce its size by 50%, to infinity in either direction, right? How can I think "quantumly" in order to understand that there is an end to our something (our universe)? Don't some of the best and brightest minds in the world of quantum physics actually disagree on this issue?

There is more than one kind of infinity. Some infinities are theoretical. Some infinities are just place holders for the math, some infinities exist within a finite range (the infinite number of "spots" between your outstretched hands) Some infinities are approximates because for math, it might as well be an infinity....and so on and so forth....

You are speaking of theoretical math infinities. The universe is NOT infinite. That is pretty well vetted.

I dont know how to get you to leave Newtons universe and start thinking in terms of Einsteins universe.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by devildog2067

How long is a circle?

It doesn't have an end, but it's not infinite either.

I'm no math expert but this concept made me have a interesting thought.

Would it be safe to assume that as the circle became bigger that it inherently became more infinite?

I believe Michio Kaku touched on this in several of his books. This is the way I understood his explanation of it but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[happyguy]

It seems to me that it's just a misunderstanding of the definition of the word universe. There is something beyond our universe. It is nothing but it is there.

Won't they be surprised when they discover that there was another big bang out in the nothing and there are are a trillion galaxies headed our way.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

[The Fist Of Goodness]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

BTW Ollie, you want some math.

A range between 10^80 and 10^83

That functionally represents the amount of atoms in the Universe. No matter how big and scary a number that is, it is still a number. A number that we can extrapolate a lot of other math from.

When you start to observe the universe and start plugging the numbers we have into a model, you start to learn things about the universe. Yes, we dont know a lot of things and many of the things we do know exist within a range, not an absolute answer(as we know it anyways) but the model we have built for the universe keeps proving right. The data points we discover keep "fitting" into that model. (that means the predictive nature of the model is generally correct...and points us in directions)

This is that model (in one way)



Since you wanted math (so you could see for yourself) can you tell me what this says about a Higgs?

Can you tell me what this is called?

To be honest, this is Devildog math, not my field but I can grind may way through it, slowly and perhaps with a lifeline.

What the hell are you going to do with it?

Pssshh. The answer is four. Gimme something hard next time.:D

Back on topic, though. One if the original 7 astronauts, Jim Gordon, IIRC- (the guy played by Dennis Quaid in The Right stuff), claimed to have had encounters with space craft while a fighter pilot (and knew other pilots who did). He also claimed that while working for NASA, actually filmed (along with two other NASA techs) a craft of some kind that landed near a test sight. He claimed that the film, after they confirmed that it had captured the ship, was turned over to the Air Force.

I am open minded, but have no idea if it is even possible. I do hope that Humans are not the pinnacle of intelligence in the Universe, though.:eek:


posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by happyguy

It seems to me that it's just a misunderstanding of the definition of the word universe. There is something beyond our universe. It is nothing but it is there.

No, if there is nothing beyond our universe, there is nothing. It CAN work that way. You just have to understand how.

Nothing is not something (again, assuming it is really nothing) You are also thinking about it in Newtonian terms. This is not a Newtonian issue.

To be blunt, it is possible that it isnt there, even if that makes no sense to you.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by lunarspeak

wrap you head around this what if we are not really natives of this planet,,,

what if some day E.T.s show up and were able to prove that we were from their race and were some lost colony they had just rediscovered.


would the christians freak out...would the govt let us go home????

Couldn't God be mistaken than for a ET?

How about the gap theory between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2?

It's possible there was/were a civilization(s) here long before the book of Genesis and there are many Christian scholars that believe this.

The Bible also doesn't deny the existence of ET's either contrary to what many people believe.

So no, as a Christian I wouldn't be freaked out. The Bible is God's word. I believe that and accept that with all my heart. I won't be wrong because it can't be.

There are many things not written in the Bible that Science is exploring. Just because Science discovers something and it's not written in the Bible doesn't automatically mean it's wrong or evil.

I believe as the Bible says that it was written by God though man by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Or put another way, it's God speaking through man.

As such, God didn't waste his time with all the technical details of the universe. He wanted to convey a message of how to live well and be saved.

Wouldn't it be counter productive for God to include hundreds of thousands of pages of data that didn't pertain to his intended message?

Maybe he also wanted us to discover things for ourselves. This way we would be discovering more complex things when we were ready and as a race, mature enough to handle the responsibilities that come along with the potential power that comes with those discoveries.

Maybe God didn't include that data because in the end science will end up discovering God for themselves!

Have faith.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by happyguy

It seems to me that it's just a misunderstanding of the definition of the word universe. There is something beyond our universe. It is nothing but it is there.

Won't they be surprised when they discover that there was another big bang out in the nothing and there are are a trillion galaxies headed our way.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

I'm not sure how many of you have studied Kabbalah but it's interesting how Kabbalah refers to God as No-thing.

As in No-Thing we can understand.

So maybe the universe is indeed expanding into No-Thing.

[happyguy]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

No, if there is nothing beyond our universe, there is nothing. It CAN work that way. You just have to understand how.

Nothing is not something (again, assuming it is really nothing) You are also thinking about it in Newtonian terms. This is not a Newtonian issue.

To be blunt, it is possible that it isnt there, even if that makes no sense to you.

That's why you guys like math so much.

It works so much better than words in certain contexts.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

[rsagona1]

Originally Posted by devildog2067

How long is a circle?

It doesn't have an end, but it's not infinite either.



Why can't it be nothing? The math says that it can.

What's really weird..try to comprehend this... What is nothing? If you could be in nothing... Then isn't it something???


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by NEOH212

I'm not sure how many of you have studied Kabbalah but it's interesting how Kabbalah refers to God as No-thing.

As in No-Thing we can understand.

So maybe the universe is indeed expanding into No-Thing.

Ein Sof means "without end" (infinite) which is the true emination of the name, just "ein" is "nothingness" in a pure form.

The ancient (and older, not quite ancient) mystical Jewish writings (authoritative) speak of a number of things that only now has modern science come to understand.

We can prove that at least 2000 years ago (we claim older but can prove 2000) that our Sages new the univers was about 14 billion years old. (yes, they understood that concept)

In the in the 13th century, the great rabbinical sage Nachmanides (again, he himself claiming learnign the knowledge from much older sources, as it always is in Judaism, all things must be brought forth in the name of something older and authorative) described in shocking detail, the big bang and its relation to time.

Kabbalistic sources say there was 1000 generations before Adam (which would mathematically land you in the range that modern science claims humanity in some form, even early forms have been around) Kabbalistic sources also say that the world existed 3 times before this one (epochs) and we can still see the echos of those creations in this world. (dinosours....)

At the moment of creation G-d was "no thing"....there was nothing as we no it, and then in a flash, all that is eminated forth. (what does that sound like, again, Nachminades really goes into detail and even includes and understanding of time) At that moment, G-d became "All things"

Everything, every part of you and every part of everything is, in reality, not just spiritually, G-d. A manifested creation of all the forces of creation.

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by rsagona1

What's really weird..try to comprehend this... What is nothing? If you could be in nothing... Then isn't it something???


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

That is the wrong answer. If you are in nothing....then you are NOT in nothing. If you see nothing, then it is not nothing.

Oblivion is a hard concept. I get that but it is what it is. It is kind a shroadingers cat issue. If you observe it, you change what it is.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

Everything, every part of you and every part of everything is, in reality, not just spiritually, G-d. A manifested creation of all the forces of creation.

Sure sounds a lot like Einstein's equivalency principle on how matter and energy are one in the same. Also how space and time are interrelated.

Such as how Matter/Energy affects the curvature of Space/Time.

If physics ends up showing things are infinite, and have infinite possibilities, maybe we are indeed gazing upon the face of God as Michio Kaku often references to.

I'm no expert on Quantum Mechanics or anything but I find if interesting how particles just seem to move in and out of existence in the, "Quantum Foam".

I understand that it's more complex than that and that it gets into higher dimensions and the such but it's still find these concepts very intriguing.

It also makes me wonder if the Religious and the Scientists are looking at different sides of the same thing. (although neither of them would want to admit it if it were true.)

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

BTW Ollie, you want some math.

A range between 10^80 and 10^83

That functionally represents the amount of atoms in the Universe. No matter how big and scary a number that is, it is still a number. A number that we can extrapolate a lot of other math from.

When you start to observe the universe and start plugging the numbers we have into a model, you start to learn things about the universe. Yes, we dont know a lot of things and many of the things we do know exist within a range, not an absolute answer(as we know it anyways) but the model we have built for the universe keeps proving right. The data points we discover keep "fitting" into that model. (that means the predictive nature of the model is generally correct...and points us in directions)

This is that model (in one way)



Since you wanted math (so you could see for yourself) can you tell me what this says about a Higgs?

Can you tell me what this is called?

To be honest, this is Devildog math, not my field but I can grind may way through it, slowly and perhaps with a lifeline.

What the hell are you going to do with it?

Discrete mathematics! Yikes! (And I thought Calc 1 was a bummer!)

I believe that would be the Standard Model of Particle Physics yes?

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by NEOH212

Discrete mathematics! Yikes! (And I thought Calc 1 was a bummer!)

I believe that would be the Standard Model of Particle Physics yes?

Yes, that is the standard model lagrangian.

[Dragoon44]

Don't we have first hand testimony that Aliens exist and they like to probe Uranus?

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

Don't we have first hand testimony that Aliens exist and they like to probe Uranus?

Yes, they hail from Poopiter!

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by NEOH212

Sure sounds a lot like Einstein's equivalency principle on how matter and energy are one in the same. Also how space and time are interrelated.

Such as how Matter/Energy affects the curvature of Space/Time.

If physics ends up showing things are infinite, and have infinite possibilities, maybe we are indeed gazing upon the face of God as Michio Kaku often references to.

I'm no expert on Quantum Mechanics or anything but I find if interesting how particles just seem to move in and out of existence in the, "Quantum Foam".

I understand that it's more complex than that and that it gets into higher dimensions and the such but it's still find these concepts very intriguing.

It also makes me wonder if the Religious and the Scientists are looking at different sides of the same thing. (although neither of them would want to admit it if it were true.)

oddly enough, there is a movement within Christianity(admittedly small because few know, care or understand) to discredit some modern cosmology (big bang and universal age type stuff) BECAUSE the Jews (evil Kabbalah) talks about those things hundred and thousands of years ago. To them "obviously" they(science) are in league with evil forces and just parroting what these things say.

As for Scientist and Religious people, Well, if your faith doesnt hold you back, yeah. I think it is the same thing and my faith doesnt have a problem with that. That might be why Judaism produces so many scientists. They never have to overcome anything to be scientists.

to take it one more step, having studied mystical things in Judaism as I have and being a scientist, it makes my faith stronger but oursiders dont tend to see or understand that because they want to view my faith through the lense of their faith, which tends to be a western and thus Christian influenced understanding of G-d. Of course that is not how I see it.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

oddly enough, there is a movement within Christianity(admittedly small because few know, care or understand) to discredit some modern cosmology (big bang and universal age type stuff) BECAUSE the Jews (evil Kabbalah) talks about those things hundred and thousands of years ago. To them "obviously" they(science) are in league with evil forces and just parroting what these things say.

As for Scientist and Religious people, Well, if your faith doesnt hold you back, yeah. I think it is the same thing and my faith doesnt have a problem with that. That might be why Judaism produces so many scientists. They never have to overcome anything to be scientists.

to take it one more step, having studied mystical things in Judaism as I have and being a scientist, it makes my faith stronger but oursiders dont tend to see or understand that because they want to view my faith through the lense of their faith, which tends to be a western and thus Christian influenced understanding of G-d. Of course that is not how I see it.

Very well said sir! (As usual!)

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

Don't we have first hand testimony that Aliens exist and they like to probe Uranus?

[rsagona1]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

That is the wrong answer. If you are in nothing....then you are NOT in nothing. If you see nothing, then it is not nothing.

Oblivion is a hard concept. I get that but it is what it is. It is kind a shroadingers cat issue. If you observe it, you change what it is.

I see what you mean. It's hard to grasp. I also think of this--before the Big Bang, or before anything existed--what was there. Was there any time? Imagine you are able to view this pre-big bang time, what would you see? Well you'd see nothing, makes your head spin.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

[Blast]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

Ein Sof means "without end" (infinite) which is the true emination of the name, just "ein" is "nothingness" in a pure form.

The ancient (and older, not quite ancient) mystical Jewish writings (authoritative) speak of a number of things that only now has modern science come to understand.

We can prove that at least 2000 years ago (we claim older but can prove 2000) that our Sages new the univers was about 14 billion years old. (yes, they understood that concept)

In the in the 13th century, the great rabbinical sage Nachmanides (again, he himself claiming learnign the knowledge from much older sources, as it always is in Judaism, all things must be brought forth in the name of something older and authorative) described in shocking detail, the big bang and its relation to time.

Kabbalistic sources say there was 1000 generations before Adam (which would mathematically land you in the range that modern science claims humanity in some form, even early forms have been around) Kabbalistic sources also say that the world existed 3 times before this one (epochs) and we can still see the echos of those creations in this world. (dinosours....)

At the moment of creation G-d was "no thing"....there was nothing as we no it, and then in a flash, all that is eminated forth. (what does that sound like, again, Nachminades really goes into detail and even includes and understanding of time) At that moment, G-d became "All things"

Everything, every part of you and every part of everything is, in reality, not just spiritually, G-d. A manifested creation of all the forces of creation.

Interesting stuff. Especially since there has been five mass extinctions. Two more than mentioned above though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/extinction_events

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Eart...on-events.html

Is a sixth on the horizon?
http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=118804



Another interesting thing is from the Talmud describing the number of galaxies and stars.
http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2010...-of-stars.html