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Old 11-22-2012, 22:49   #101
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It is sad that so many fine early scientists were Christians. Now the believers I know fear science because they think it is antagonistic toward belief. Only if you only believe what your preacher told you, which he learned from some other preacher.

If there is a God, and he is infinite and man was indeed made in his image then I do not see any reason to fear science because we have the capacity to understand everything eventually. Probably not anything any believer would accept but that is how I deal with not knowing. All we have to do is not exterminate ourselves, keep improving ourselves and eventually we will get it. I'm betting on self extermination but that's just a guess based on recent trends.
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Old 11-22-2012, 22:51   #102
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Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
I don't want to seem confrontational, but it is honestly tripping me out that my post has caused such controversy. I even said please and thank you. All I asked for was a link.
The point that people have been trying to make to you is that "a link" probably won't help you much.

At the level of math that you're asking about, it takes more than "a link" to understand it. There are some decent non-mathematical introductory articles at various levels of complexity (in fact, there's a nice one on Wikipedia) but if you really want to dig your teeth into the math, you probably need to dedicate a few years of your life to it. I spent 6 years studying (among other things) the Einstein field equations and I know I'm still not an expert.

But to answer your question: the Einstein field equations are typically written in the form

The Okie Corral

or in trace-reversed form (the way I'm used to seeing them, since I'm a particle physicist and not a cosmologist)

The Okie Corral

The Einstein equations are tensor equations (or more properly, tensor field equations), so to manipulate them you need a solid grounding in linear algebra.

There are a number of different possible solutions to the EFE, each of which corresponds to a possible geometry of the universe. There are some which correspond to the best currently available experimental data (primarily data from WMAP) which describe an infinite universe, and others which describe a finite universe of various shapes. Most of these use the FLRW general metric:

The Okie Corral

although again, as I mentioned, I'm a particle physicist so I'm more familiar with seeing the solutions written using the Minkowski metric (which isn't quite correct, but a good approximation in the realm of weak gravity where particle physics is primarily done).

In other words, the math is ok with the universe being infinite or finite. Solutions of both types satisfy the EFE.

To really understand the math behind this stuff, you'd need to devote a significant portion of your life to it--literally years, probably decades. I've spent years doing it and I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. Wanting to understand it as much as possible is great, but thinking that you can ask for "a link" to "the math" and have that be enough to explain it to you is nonsensical.
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Old 11-22-2012, 22:51   #103
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Originally Posted by Blast View Post
Interesting stuff. Especially since there has been five mass extinctions. Two more than mentioned above though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/extinction_events

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Eart...on-events.html

Is a sixth on the horizon?
http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=118804



Another interesting thing is from the Talmud describing the number of galaxies and stars.
http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2010...-of-stars.html
Yes, the Babylonian Talmud is a book of many ancient truths. So is the Zohar. (BYW, your site is somewhat anti...but that is OK)

We have known many things all along that Science is just now figuring out.

Here is an article (as I mentioned in an earlier post) where (some) fundamental Christians lambast modern science as being a schill for some nefarious Jewish plot because the ancient Jews were pretty damned close.

http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas_spiritual_roots.htm


Oh what light the Jews could have given the world during the dark ages if we didnt have to hide the Talmud and other mystical writings. We could be exploring the stars.....!
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Old 11-22-2012, 23:15   #104
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Science doesn't know what is beyond our universe if anything.
We have equations that have proven reliable thus far, but that doesn't mean that they are correct. They may fall short in the future and other equations will be realized that will push us further down the road of knowledge. Our technology needs decades of advances to prove this answer.
Extraterrestrials? There are a lot of suns up there with a lot of rocks orbiting those suns. We haven't seen much. Chances are good, both smarter and dumber than us. Maybe they even communicate and have fought interstellar wars and we don't even have a clue.

Parallel Universes
Multiverses
Wormholes
Extraterrestrials
God

We are still in our infancy...

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Old 11-23-2012, 00:12   #105
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Yes, the Babylonian Talmud is a book of many ancient truths. So is the Zohar. (BYW, your site is somewhat anti...but that is OK)

We have known many things all along that Science is just now figuring out.

Here is an article (as I mentioned in an earlier post) where (some) fundamental Christians lambast modern science as being a schill for some nefarious Jewish plot because the ancient Jews were pretty damned close.

http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas_spiritual_roots.htm


Oh what light the Jews could have given the world during the dark ages if we didnt have to hide the Talmud and other mystical writings. We could be exploring the stars.....!
I see that anti... Ironically, that was the best site I could find which brought some science comparison.
This forum has more stuff.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/fo...p?topic=9354.0

I don't see conflict between science and theism. Unfortunately many do, especially fundies.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:03   #106
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I see that anti... Ironically, that was the best site I could find which brought some science comparison.
This forum has more stuff.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/fo...p?topic=9354.0

I don't see conflict between science and theism. Unfortunately many do, especially fundies.
That guy might have been over reaching a tad and leaving out some other good stuff.

Of course I am quite the fan boy of things Jewish but I dont want to pass off anything for something it isnt.

The Jewish writings have some shocking stuff in them in terms of absolute claims and predictions. It also has some math that demonstrates and understanding beyond anything that would not be seen for a thousand or many more years. That doesnt instantly mean "G-d" but it does raise some powerful questions.

The other side of that is, there are a number of things in Jewish writings that are vague enough for us to "fit" things into that make sense in hindsight. They may not be vague to the Jewish reader who is educated in such things (the plain meaning is fairly obvious) but the esoteric meaning (as most Jewish writings have many layers of meaning) might be pretty broad.

One thing about the Jewish writings is they do tend to liberate the minds of Jewish people. Without giving a 10 page primer on why that is (it is quite comlicated) our writings are often constructed in such a way that they teach people to think and question most everything. The results of that can produce profound thinking, and it has.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:40   #107
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Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
I don't want to seem confrontational, but it is honestly tripping me out that my post has caused such controversy. I even said please and thank you. All I asked for was a link.
Communication is never what you mean to say, it is how your message is received and perceived by the intended recipient. Effective communication is wherein your intended message and how that message is processed by the intended recipient are the same.

You did not (have not) communicate(d) effectively.

There is no controversy. Folks spoke their minds and told you "the truth". What you choose to do with it beyond that point is on you.

On to the topic being discussed, what DD says is true. One can spend 15 years of intensive post graduate study looking at this stuff and still only grasp the most nebulous of ethers of it.

Sometimes it is important to have an understanding of (the scope of) what we don't know.

Again, no controversy, , no histrionics, no hair pulling, no name calling - just the facts delivered in a very dispassionate manner.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:21   #108
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It is sad that so many fine early scientists were Christians. Now the believers I know fear science because they think it is antagonistic toward belief. Only if you only believe what your preacher told you, which he learned from some other preacher.

If there is a God, and he is infinite and man was indeed made in his image then I do not see any reason to fear science because we have the capacity to understand everything eventually. Probably not anything any believer would accept but that is how I deal with not knowing. All we have to do is not exterminate ourselves, keep improving ourselves and eventually we will get it. I'm betting on self extermination but that's just a guess based on recent trends.
A lot of early science was driven by scientists' faith and their desire to understand God. ("With a big enough telescope, I'll see god." "If I dig a deep enough hole, I'll find hell." "If I sail a bit further, I'll find the garden of eden."

Their sense of exploration was no less intense. This problem with that is that the scientists weren't trying to discover...they were trying to find. They began with the end in mind, rather than following the evidence. The "scientific method" is the supposed fix for that little characteristic in human nature.

Some science today is equally skewed. There's fame to be had, peer respect, fellowships, book deals, patents, GT web-cred. A science team can be so intent on putting a man on Mars and so not be destracted by that little globule of stuff in a dark crater on Phobos. "We're going to Mars, Baby! Quit tryin to destract me!"

The project is too big, to expensive and has too high of TV ratings to say, "Hey, what's that over there?"
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:55   #109
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It's threads like this that make me wish I had more math.

Why is oblivion hard to understand? Oblivion is nothing. Infinity is the concept I have a problem with - I can understand infinity of space over a period of time -as in, the universe could expand forever. Not a problematic concept. The universe currently exists as infinite space? That I cannot wrap my head around without a pictorial metaphor that I have never found. It turns into a donut when I try to picture it, and that's wrong.

I self-identify as a fundamentalist Christian, but I am no Young Earther, and have no problem with science - the purpose of science is to better understand creation, and God. Free Will presupposes an informed intelligence. Decisions made from ignorance are unGodly. We practice science imperfectly - it involves human beings with egos, desires, and mental illness, after all, but it is a darn sight better than erroneously claiming that men have one less rib than women without counting what's in front of us.

Despite my earlier silly post, I really do hope aliens exist. It would seem an incredible waste of space for them not-to-be. And God must have an infinite imagination in order to exist.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:06   #110
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Originally Posted by RonS View Post
It is sad that so many fine early scientists were Christians. Now the believers I know fear science because they think it is antagonistic toward belief. Only if you only believe what your preacher told you, which he learned from some other preacher.

If there is a God, and he is infinite and man was indeed made in his image then I do not see any reason to fear science because we have the capacity to understand everything eventually. Probably not anything any believer would accept but that is how I deal with not knowing. All we have to do is not exterminate ourselves, keep improving ourselves and eventually we will get it. I'm betting on self extermination but that's just a guess based on recent trends.
A Christian shouldn't fear science at all. They should thank God for the understanding or ability to understand. Should be considered a blessing,not a curse.
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Old 11-23-2012, 16:58   #111
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The point that people have been trying to make to you is that "a link" probably won't help you much.

At the level of math that you're asking about, it takes more than "a link" to understand it. There are some decent non-mathematical introductory articles at various levels of complexity (in fact, there's a nice one on Wikipedia) but if you really want to dig your teeth into the math...
Thank you for posting this.

In the early 90's, because of my job in the Navy, I met some people in Hawaii that were involved in underwater neutrino detection. I thought it was fascinating that they were trying to answer some of our greatest questions by looking for miniscule flashes of light in the ocean.

Since then I have tried, from a laymans perspective, to keep up with what is happening in the world of physics. I understand that I cannot "do the math"... not at that level. But usually when you find the math you'll find an explanation of what the math is describing, and that is what interests me. For example, I can't do the math that attempts to model gravity, but it is interesting to me to read analogies about a "bumpy universe", with mass (planets, etc) creating moving dimples in space.

I don't beat myself up for not being able to do the math (my understanding is that even those who can use computers to do it for them most of the time), and in my defense it is worth mentioning that I am almost never the 1st one to bring up the subject of math.

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There are some ...which describe an infinite universe, and others which describe a finite universe of various shapes. ...

In other words, the math is ok with the universe being infinite or finite. Solutions of both types satisfy the EFE.
This was my understanding (again, from a laymans perspective), and usually I could get away with the statement "The universe is infinite, it has to be... what is beyond the outer edge of what is expanding?" But I suppose if I'm going to have this discussion with a particle physicist I should amend my statement "It has to be" to "In my opinion".

When you responded with; "Why can't it be nothing, the math says it can"... I should have just asked "Says it is... or says it can?"... but I had tryptophan and beer on board yesterday... so I thought you were arguing a point that you appear now to not be arguing.

Do you believe in an infinite "something" beyond our universe, or do you believe it is nothing (oblivion)?

This is also an interesting point...
Quote:
Won't they be surprised when they discover that there was another big bang out in the nothing and there are are a trillion galaxies headed our way.
If a big bang happened in "our" oblivion, however long ago, do you think it is possible that another big bang has/could occur(ed) out in oblivion somewhere "else"?

And most importantly... I'd be interested to hear your take on the possibility of extraterrestrial life.

~Lance
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Old 11-23-2012, 18:00   #112
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Ah yes, the humanists are so witty.

Seriously, do you admire a man who seduced his underage step-daughter?
And here again, you display your un-Christian, hypocritical attitude, dishonesty, and such a poor grasp of reasoning that you routinely use logical fallacies.
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Old 11-23-2012, 18:04   #113
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And here again, you display your un-Christian, hypocritical attitude, dishonesty, and such a poor grasp of reasoning that you routinely use logical fallacies.
You mean like, religion?
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Old 11-23-2012, 21:17   #114
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In before the bible says you're wrong.
Yeah, that great book of scientific investigation.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:38   #115
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And here again, you display your un-Christian, hypocritical attitude, dishonesty, and such a poor grasp of reasoning that you routinely use logical fallacies.
Is that a yes?

Last post...this thread has been a great read (especially Blast and Rabbi's posts and links) and I prefer it not go the way of the last one I was involved in as I don't want to ruin it for everyone else.

I apologize for the distraction. I was and I should know better.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:40   #116
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Statistically impossible for there not to be other life, they've already found planets that can support life, even if they are lightyears away. If life can exist somewhere, it will
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:44   #117
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Statistically impossible for there not to be other life, they've already found planets that can support life, even if they are lightyears away. If life can exist somewhere, it will
That is not true, it is statistically possible that life DOESNT exist elsewhere.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:45   #118
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That is not true, it is statistically possible that life DOESNT exist elsewhere.
Yah but it's really improbable.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:51   #119
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Yah but it's really improbable.
Not necessarily.

It all depends on which model you use. If you look at the math of what it takes for there to be life and the math of how many chances, over time there is/has been for that to happen, some models overlap (life elsewhere is probable) some models dont overlap (life elsewhere not probable)

Outside of religious issues that say *poof* something willed life into being, I lean very strongly towards the overlapping models (in theory it has to overlap) because it has happened at least once, here.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:52   #120
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I thought you were talking about the math of making a profit while selling cars below invoice- you know an expert in "imaginary numbers"

j/k
That doesn't work? I'm shocked...shocked...


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Old 11-24-2012, 11:55   #121
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Not necessarily.

It all depends on which model you use. If you look at the math of what it takes for there to be life and the math of how many chances, over time there is/has been for that to happen, some models overlap (life elsewhere is probable) some models dont overlap (life elsewhere not probable)

Outside of religious issues that say *poof* something willed life into being, I lean very strongly towards the overlapping models (in theory it has to overlap) because it has happened at least once, here.
If you use the religious model life exists somewhere else.

Given the number of planets in the known universe I am in the camp that believes there is other life apart from earth here (in the universe).

For starters. Gold. None of it is from here. It was a gift, I tell you, a gift.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:04   #122
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Suppose you were a leader in a race of beings with FTL travel. And suppose one of your exploration teams recently found Earth and studied the seemingly dominant race - humans. Would you want your race to become involved with the humans on Earth? Why would such involvement be good for either race?


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Old 11-24-2012, 12:32   #123
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Suppose you were a leader in a race of beings with FTL travel. And suppose one of your exploration teams recently found Earth and studied the seemingly dominant race - humans. Would you want your race to become involved with the humans on Earth? Why would such involvement be good for either race?


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That is an impossible question to answer throught he only lense we have, ours.

With that lense, the more advanced (dominate) a culture become the more of a need if seems to have to control/save/enslave...whatever a less powerful culture.

No matter what you call it groups with power tend to want to have something to do with people with less power.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:43   #124
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Outside of religious issues that say *poof* something willed life into being, I lean very strongly towards the overlapping models (in theory it has to overlap) because it has happened at least once, here.
Once it was proven that planets are as common as dirt I pretty much concluded the probability that we are alone in the universe shrank to near zero. Whether we will ever find each other or not is an entirely different question.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:56   #125
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There are millions of worlds out there with life (actually, probably trillions). Anyone that can't grasp that simply doesn't understand the scope of the universe (both size and time) or is so religiously zealous that they can't have a single intelligent independent thought.

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