GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-25-2012, 18:22   #201
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,872


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
I may be insane, but that does not mean I am wrong.

As for wasting my life? How could you ever assume to know whether or not I am wasting my life? You know nothing about what I do, who I am, and how I live my life.

It's like all the anti-gunners saying that we all walk around in fear because we carry guns when it is the exact opposite. We have no fear because we have the guns and are aware of our environment. Same with the reptilian agenda. I enjoy life even more because I know the truth. Ha ha ha. Life is awesome in this shape shifting reptilian dominated dominion.
You're wrong and insane.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 18:36   #202
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Prove that G-d is real.

I can prove the validity of math.
You prove he isn't.
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 18:41   #203
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
What if we're the most advanced civilization in the universe?
That is a scary thought.
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 18:42   #204
Veedubklown
Senior Member
 
Veedubklown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Northwest AZ
Posts: 2,083
I'd be far more inclined to believe the existence of extraterrestrial life, than any religious notion, or ghosts.

The conditions that made this lump of rock, into a teaming cesspool of life, was a very rare occurrence, but for it to only happen once, in a universe that's infinite and constantly expanding, would be mind boggling.
__________________
I don't always rock out with my glock out, but when I do, it's all the way.
Veedubklown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 18:45   #205
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,872


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
You prove he isn't.

That isnt how it works. If it was, using that logic, we can say that about anything. From pink unicorns to the flying spaghetti monster.

Tossing out the "prove a negative" doesnt strengthen your cause, it just shows you dont have an arguement of any kind. At most you have a belief.

...and btw, you can not provide one shred of evidence for the existence of deity or the supernatural

Yet, the poeple of the world can violate every single injunction by all the myriad of deities and suffer no consequence.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

Last edited by Rabbi; 11-25-2012 at 18:48..
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 18:55   #206
ArtificialGrape
CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
 
ArtificialGrape's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,542
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Tossing out the "prove a negative" doesnt strengthen your cause, it just shows you dont have an arguement of any kind.
Or even a basic understanding of logic.

-ArtificialGrape
ArtificialGrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 19:12   #207
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Question: If we are the most advanced life-form in the universe, and somewhere, even only 5000 light years away is an almost identical life form to us, would it take either side a good 100+ years (extrapolating tech advances) to be conclusively be aware of each others existence?
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 19:38   #208
ArtificialGrape
CLM Number 265
Charter Lifetime Member
 
ArtificialGrape's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 5,542
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Question: If we are the most advanced life-form in the universe, and somewhere, even only 5000 light years away is an almost identical life form to us, would it take either side a good 100+ years (extrapolating tech advances) to be conclusively be aware of each others existence?
If they are looking at the earth right now, and they are 5000 light years away, what they are seeing is the earth 2988 bce when we would not have had any communications that could have been intercepted.

-ArtificialGrape
ArtificialGrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 19:40   #209
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,872


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
If they are looking at the earth right now, and they are 5000 light years away, what they are seeing is the earth 2988 bce when we would not have had any communications that could have been intercepted.

-ArtificialGrape
Not only that but the latest thinking on our transmissions into space is they break up pretty quick. I.E. no one on planey blueblorp, about 50 light years away is watching reruns of "I Love Lucy"
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 19:40   #210
RayB
Retired Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
What if we're the most advanced civilization in the universe?

A disturbing notion, considering what a crap-thread this turned out to be...

Carl Sagan once suggested that the absence of the telltale signals of intelligent, technological life in the cosmos, may be due in part, to the fact that most advanced civilizations do not survive their technological adolescence. When I look at the absurd bickering in what might have been an interesting thread, I can readily see his point.

Talking about children born at sea or on an airplane is mere wordplay, and rather silly, really. Besides, the point being made there is that some people are not born on land, not that some people are not born on Earth. So far, everybody that ever lived, was born right here.

I am a man of some faith. But I do not believe that if God wanted man to fly, he'd have given him wings...

While I do believe in God, I also believe in dinosaurs... And while I do respect the Bible, I'm well aware that our body of knowledge grows constantly, and I do not accept that the authors of the Bible, in its various revisions, already knew everything there is to know.

And like many others, I have also noticed that it seems like whatever events unfold, somebody will find that event prophesized in the Bible...

Still, I do respect the Good Book, and I maintain that one would do well to live by many of its teachings, as to me it's more of a guide on how to live a good and moral life, than it is an explanation of the universe and its underlying mechanisms.

Someday, we will have the definitive answer to whether or not life exists elsewhere in the cosmos. For right now, we’ll just have to speculate, and make educated guesses based on what we’ve learned, and what we can observe. The stuff that makes life one Earth, in all its varied expressions, is readily detectable throughout the cosmos. And I find the notion of life being exclusive to Earth, akin to the arcane idea that Earth is the center of the solar system, let alone the universe...

I think that looking to the Bible for a discussion in exobiology, is misguided at best. The fact is, the chemical elements and energy sources that led to life on Earth, abound throughout the cosmos. And I think the day will come that when extraterrestrial life is confirmed, the vast majority of people will wonder that anybody ever doubted it.

--Ray
RayB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 20:55   #211
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,869


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayB View Post
.......Talking about children born at sea or on an airplane is mere wordplay, and rather silly, really. Besides, the point being made there is that some people are not born on land, not that some people are not born on Earth. So far, everybody that ever lived, was born right here.

...........
--Ray
Yes and the comment on children born at sea and in airplanes was meant to be wordplay and silly. So it was quite successful.

Actually, you do not know that everyone was born right here. You have made the assertion that your statement is true; please provide evidence.

The Bible (its many parts from many sources across a long time in human terms) was not meant to explain the universe and all its workings. It was meant to guide the moral and ethical lives of people, not to teach them science that they did not have the tools to understand at the time. It does what it was meant to do. It should be judged on that basis, and perspective.

Should a cook book be criticized that it does not explain botany and veterinary science?
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:08   #212
RayB
Retired Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
1) Yes and the comment on children born at sea and in airplanes was meant to be wordplay and silly. So it was quite successful.

2) Actually, you do not know that everyone was born right here. You have made the assertion that your statement is true; please provide evidence.

3) The Bible (its many parts from many sources across a long time in human terms) was not meant to explain the universe and all its workings. It was meant to guide the moral and ethical lives of people, not to teach them science that they did not have the tools to understand at the time. It does what it was meant to do. It should be judged on that basis, and perspective.

4) Should a cook book be criticized that it does not explain botany and veterinary science?

1) And irrelevant. But if you honestly found it amusing, I suppose...

2) Nope. I never said I could prove it. But unless the Ruskies birthed a few kids in orbit, or on a secret moon-base, I'd bet the farm that every human alive to date, or ever was, was born right here, on Earth. And I'll stand by that assertion.

3) Yes, I know. I pretty much said that. But people keep referring to it as though it were a reference book, to disprove such propositions as extraterrestrial life. In the early days, the Bible was used to disprove a sun-centered solar system.

Copernicus was called a “heretic”, an “upstart astrologer”, and a “fool” by Martin Luther, because of his sun-centered model of our solar system. Why? Because the Bible tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still in the sky; therefore, the sun must be revolving around the Earth, and not the other way around. This is a matter of historical record...

And consider the persecution of Galileo as another matter of historical record. All because he saw moons around Jupiter, and clouds in its atmosphere, with his crude little telescope... If memory serves, it wasn't until something like 1992, that the Roman Catholic Church quietly removed Galileo's works from its list of forbidden books...

Face it, when the church was the state, when they edited our textbooks, we call that the Dark Ages...

And still I am a man of some faith. And happily and proudly so.

4) No. Conversely, it should not be referenced to prove or disprove matters of botany or veterinary science.

I think we're more on the same page than you care to admit.

By the bye, this thread did appear to be taking a turn for the better during the time I took—there were many distractions here—writing and posting my earlier post. There are some fine minds here, and the OP’s topic deserves their best efforts.

Two things that interest me...

A) Since there are creatures that communicate with sonar, light, and color, and since there are beings that generate electricity, sense magnetic fields, and in the case of sharks, read the neural muscular impulses in potential prey, do you suppose creatures may have evolved on other worlds that communicate by radio waves, microwaves, or magnetic field patterns?

B) Since silicon acts like carbon in the way it combines with other elements to make complex molecules, is there a strong argument for the possibility of silicon-based life? What would the prerequisites be for a silicon-based life-form be? What attributes might it have? What advantages? Could a kind of solid-state life be possible?

--Ray
RayB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:19   #213
Armchair Commando
Long Range Guru
 
Armchair Commando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bunker in the Midwest
Posts: 4,077


This really makes you open your eyes when you realize how big just our Galaxy Alone is, and how many other galaxies are out there in the universe!

The Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy 100,000–120,000 light-years in diameter containing 200–400 billion stars. It may contain at least as many planets.[17] The Solar System is located within the disk, around two thirds of the way out from the Galactic Center, on the inner edge of a spiral-shaped concentration of gas and dust called the Orion–Cygnus Arm. The stars in the inner ≈10,000 light-years are organized in a bulge and one or more bars. The very center is marked by an intense radio source named Sagittarius A* which is likely to be a supermassive black hole. The Galaxy rotates differentially, faster towards the center and slower towards the outer edge. The rotational period is about 200 million years at the position of the Sun.[8] The Galaxy as a whole is moving at a velocity of 552 to 630 km per second, depending on the relative frame of reference. It is estimated to be about 13.2 billion years old, nearly as old as the Universe. Surrounded by several smaller satellite galaxies, the Milky Way is part of the Local Group of galaxies, which forms a subcomponent of the Virgo Supercluster.

A light-year, also light year or lightyear (symbol: ly), is a unit of length equal to just under 10 trillion kilometres (or about 6 trillion miles).
__________________
In the works, 338 Lapua built on a Surgeon 1581/R XL Action/Krieger Stick/Jewel Trigger with a Nightforce NXS 8-32X56 Glass
Some Guardian Angels wear white, The others wear Blackhawk!
Armchair Commando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:34   #214
Angry Fist
Lifetime Membership
The Original®
 
Angry Fist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,392
You're not accounting for dark matter, or the expansion of the universe.
__________________
I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, s**t-kickers, Methodists, and the GTDS.
Angry Fist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:41   #215
Glocksanity
Senior Member
 
Glocksanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles, Man, Los Angeles
Posts: 1,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Prove that G-d is real.

I can prove the validity of math.
I cannot prove reincarnation or karma with mathematics either but that doesn't mean they don't exist. There is more to reality than exists in a Cartesian world.
__________________
G21~G26~G30~G34

Sic semper evello mortem Tyrannis!
Glocksanity is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:42   #216
Angry Fist
Lifetime Membership
The Original®
 
Angry Fist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,392
My karma ran over my dogma.

/thread.
__________________
I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, s**t-kickers, Methodists, and the GTDS.
Angry Fist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:45   #217
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,872


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
I cannot prove reincarnation or karma with mathematics either but that doesn't mean they don't exist. There is more to reality than exists in a Cartesian world.
You dont know what the word "reality" means. That explains a lot.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 22:54   #218
RayB
Retired Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchair Commando View Post
This really makes you open your eyes when you realize how big just our Galaxy Alone is, and how many other galaxies are out there in the universe!

The Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy 100,000–120,000 light-years in diameter containing 200–400 billion stars. It may contain at least as many planets.[17] The Solar System is located within the disk, around two thirds of the way out from the Galactic Center, on the inner edge of a spiral-shaped concentration of gas and dust called the Orion–Cygnus Arm. The stars in the inner ≈10,000 light-years are organized in a bulge and one or more bars. The very center is marked by an intense radio source named Sagittarius A* which is likely to be a supermassive black hole. The Galaxy rotates differentially, faster towards the center and slower towards the outer edge. The rotational period is about 200 million years at the position of the Sun.[8] The Galaxy as a whole is moving at a velocity of 552 to 630 km per second, depending on the relative frame of reference. It is estimated to be about 13.2 billion years old, nearly as old as the Universe. Surrounded by several smaller satellite galaxies, the Milky Way is part of the Local Group of galaxies, which forms a subcomponent of the Virgo Supercluster.

A light-year, also light year or lightyear (symbol: ly), is a unit of length equal to just under 10 trillion kilometres (or about 6 trillion miles).

I'm reading it, and getting it, but I can never really get it, can I?

How can a guy leading a pretty ordinary life, stuff this inside his head?

This is grandeur on an awful scale, beyond the bounds of ordinary comprehension. To confront it would be staggering.

How did Ellie put it? "Poetry... They should've sent a poet..."

Has the "barred galaxy" debate finally been put to rest?

--Ray
RayB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 23:06   #219
RayB
Retired Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry Fist View Post
You're not accounting for dark matter, or the expansion of the universe.

Where I left that discussion, was that the quantification of dark matter would answer the question as to whether or not the cosmos had sufficient mass and gravity to eventually overcome and halt its own expansion. If so, it would then follow that we live in a closed and oscillating universe, where expansions alternate with impending collapses, the latter of which culminates in a new iteration of the Big Bang!

If this proves true, the Big Bang that we observe is but one of a nameless number of Big Bangs that have occurred, and will recur in and endless cycle of destruction and creation.

The implications are both stupendous and sobering.

--Ray
RayB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 23:33   #220
Angry Fist
Lifetime Membership
The Original®
 
Angry Fist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,392
Takes more than a Big Crunch to sober me up.
__________________
I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, s**t-kickers, Methodists, and the GTDS.
Angry Fist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 00:05   #221
Blast
'nuff said
 
Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NKY/Cincinnati area
Posts: 19,627


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayB View Post
Where I left that discussion, was that the quantification of dark matter would answer the question as to whether or not the cosmos had sufficient mass and gravity to eventually overcome and halt its own expansion. If so, it would then follow that we live in a closed and oscillating universe, where expansions alternate with impending collapses, the latter of which culminates in a new iteration of the Big Bang!

If this proves true, the Big Bang that we observe is but one of a nameless number of Big Bangs that have occurred, and will recur in and endless cycle of destruction and creation.

The implications are both stupendous and sobering.

--Ray
As it stands now, the expansion of the universe is accelerating by an unknown force dubbed "dark energy".
Scientists do not know what this force is. It cannot be detected, but it's effects are obvious.
If this force continues to accelerate the expansion, the universe will eventually dissipate to nothing.
But, if this force grows weaker and gravity gets the upper hand, then expansion will slow and converge back to a singularity to begin the cycle again.


__________________
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be - Albert Einstein

Last edited by Blast; 11-26-2012 at 00:33..
Blast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 00:51   #222
RayB
Retired Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast View Post
As it stands now, the expansion of the universe is accelerating by an unknown force dubbed "dark energy".
Scientists do not know what this force is. It cannot be detected, but it's effects are obvious.
If this force continues to accelerate the expansion, the universe will eventually dissipate to nothing.
But, if this force grows weaker and gravity gets the upper hand, then expansion will slow and converge back to a singularity to begin the cycle again.

I don't mean to dabble in mere word play, but if there is enough mass-gravity to close this universe, and close it to the point where even light can't escape beyond its reach, are we not inside a black hole?

If a star can become massive enough to form a singularity, how can everything not be massive enough to form a singularity?

We live with the knowledge that one day our local star, a/k/a the sun, will swell into a red giant and consume the Earth. If what we're talking about regarding the universe is true, at some point in the distant future, intelligent beings will live with the knowledge that everything is collapsing in on itself in their universe. All the stars will be blue-shifted, and the more distant the stars, the bluer their shifts—just the inverse of what we see now. Except that they will know for certain, that this is but one expression of creation, where the clock resets and starts over, with the most recent incarnation of the Big Bang, in an endless succession of Big Bangs!

--Ray
RayB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 02:47   #223
Blast
'nuff said
 
Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NKY/Cincinnati area
Posts: 19,627


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayB View Post
I don't mean to dabble in mere word play, but if there is enough mass-gravity to close this universe, and close it to the point where even light can't escape beyond its reach, are we not inside a black hole?

If a star can become massive enough to form a singularity, how can everything not be massive enough to form a singularity?

We live with the knowledge that one day our local star, a/k/a the sun, will swell into a red giant and consume the Earth. If what we're talking about regarding the universe is true, at some point in the distant future, intelligent beings will live with the knowledge that everything is collapsing in on itself in their universe. All the stars will be blue-shifted, and the more distant the stars, the bluer their shifts—just the inverse of what we see now. Except that they will know for certain, that this is but one expression of creation, where the clock resets and starts over, with the most recent incarnation of the Big Bang, in an endless succession of Big Bangs!

--Ray
There is a certain amount of mass required for a star to become a black hole the center of which is the singularity.
Our sun cannot become a black hole, it will become a white dwarf after the red giant phase.
The minimum amount of mass for a star to become a black hole would be about 20 times the mass of our sun.

This site has some good info on black holes.
http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resou...kground.html#6


This covers gravity and singularites.
__________________
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be - Albert Einstein
Blast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 06:22   #224
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry Fist View Post
1 million times more likely is that I am going to get elected Pope and Caliph on the same day.
Why do you say that?
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 07:45   #225
devildog2067
Senior Member
 
devildog2067's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Near Chicago, IL
Posts: 15,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast View Post
As it stands now, the expansion of the universe is accelerating by an unknown force dubbed "dark energy".
It's not a "force" as we think about forces (i.e., not a force in the Newtonian sense, nor is it a force like the four fundamental forces). Dark energy, mathematically, corresponds to a non-zero vacuum expectation value. It's the "energy cost" of "having space" even if that space is empty.

Quote:
It cannot be detected, but it's effects are obvious.
Those two statements are contradictory. If something has obvious effects, it is indirectly detectable.
devildog2067 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:15.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 757
228 Members
529 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42