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Old 12-02-2012, 20:07   #21
SBray
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Folks, after cleaning up from todays storm, I got some time on the reloader.

I reduced the bell opening, and worked at adjusting separate crimp station. The final round is 1.160 OAL and approximately .379 just before and at the case edge. When I removed the bullet from the case, it appears that this setting seems to crimp (remove the bell) just to the point of showing an indication that if I applied anymore crimp, there would be an indentation in the bullet. As it is now, I have to use a very close inspection to just barely see a hint of a crimp line.

Tomorrow I might try seating the bullet slightly more to see if the same crimp setting will curve the edge in more. When I run my fingers down to the edge of the bullet, there is a very slight hint of the bell remaining. The new cartridges fit properly in the case gauge without any resistance.

Also, I tried the bathroom scale push test and the bullet remained intact.

Thanks,

Steve
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Old 12-02-2012, 20:15   #22
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Make sure to try your impact test again. I would think that it will take more than one hit to dislodge the bullet.

Richard
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Old 12-02-2012, 20:20   #23
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Originally Posted by smokin762 View Post
I just started reloading myself. I have the Dillon 650.

One of my first problems was I was belling the case mouth too much. The crimping die didn’t seem to want to overcome this. Since, I started just making the bell big enough for the bullet to set on the case to align with the seating die. Everything seemed to work out from there on.
The Dillon 550B manual is a little more specific about belling. They suggest that 0.020" is enough.

IIRC, the 650 manual just says to bell it enough to allow the bullet to sit on the case.

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 12-03-2012 at 07:34..
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:27   #24
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Make sure to try your impact test again. I would think that it will take more than one hit to dislodge the bullet.

Richard
Yes I did Richard, I think it was twice the effort to dislodge the bullet on this last bunch.

Thanks,

Steve
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:08   #25
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Taper crimp does NOT hold the bullet in place, proper neck tension does. SO setback testing isn't telling you much about the crimp. If you deform the bullet during crimping, it's over crimped & little good comes from that. If a pulled bullet shows that much deformation, you aren't helping your accuracy a bit, maybe not reliability either, as you can cause loss if critical case neck tension.

A faint line is acceptable, reducing the bullet dia is not. Easy enough to check, pull a bullet & measure the part inside the case. I have pulled WWB ammo that looks like that, maybe why WWB is never all that accurate. Undersized driving bullets are never going to shoot well.
Wow, that's profound! You know, I don't think I've ever argued semantics in the reloading forum before. I've had plenty of stupid arguments, here, but none of them were semantic.

Some days I used to go through as many as 500 of my own pistol rounds; they all fired; and they all hit the target; and, on the firing line, I've never had a problem with any of my own ammunition - Ever, not even once. (What? A half million rounds?)

I don't think any of those bullets knew that they were being held in place by either the, 'taper crimp' or, 'neck tension'. (Of course, the whole purpose of a taper crimp is TO APPLY NECK TENSION along the (flat) sides of a bullet instead of directly against the cannelure.

As far as I'm concerned only a jerk bulges or deforms his bullets while reloading them. 'Reducing bullet diameter' is, as I've already mentioned, exactly, 'Why' Lee, 'Factory Crimp Dies' sometimes don't work. Do we really need to argue about this nonsense?

If the OP simply backs off his crimp die by an 1/8th to a 1/4 turn he's going to be fine. He doesn't need to chamfer the case mouths of fret over case wall thickness. (It's mostly target ammo.) His bell adjustment appears to be correct, too. He is using plated bullets, though; and, in a semiautomatic pistol, they do need to be squeezed a little harder into the case.

Good luck with this; it's now gone on for way longer than necessary.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:29   #26
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I have to agree with what Fred has said. Have loaded way to many plated bullets to not too.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:28   #27
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... (Of course, the whole purpose of a taper crimp is TO APPLY NECK TENSION along the (flat) sides of a bullet instead of directly against the cannelure. .
I couldn't decide if you were mocking the notion of neck tension being added by a taper crimp, or if you were under the impression that it actually can add neck tension.

I read your post again and realized you had loaded a half millon rounds, so I concluded you had to be mocking the notion that neck tension can be added with a taper crimp.

For those newbies that don't know, crimps don't add neck tension, period. The best case with a properly adjusted crimp die is that it doesn't remove neck tension.

Neck tension is set with the sizing die, only. Everything you do after that step removes neck tension to some degree.

Apologies to all who have posted these facts previously, but this is such a widely misunderstood factor in reloading, it likely bares repeating, ah, repeatedly.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:19   #28
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Wow, that's profound! You know, I don't think I've ever argued semantics in the reloading forum before. I've had plenty of stupid arguments, here, but none of them were semantic.
Good luck with this; it's now gone on for way longer than necessary.
Not semantics at all, your statement is just incorrect. Making ammo that goes bang is not my intention. Making reliable accurate ammo is. Overcrimp & you are makign a round that is less reliable & less accurate, just fact. Sure, some guys can't tell the diff between accurate & less accuarte, maybe that is what the issue is for many, just not me. I can see the diff in ammo made w/ LFCD, & can see the diff w/ ammo that is loaded incorrectly & over crimped.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:21   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I couldn't decide if you were mocking the notion of neck tension being added by a taper crimp, or if you were under the impression that it actually can add neck tension.

I read your post again and realized you had loaded a half millon rounds, so I concluded you had to be mocking the notion that neck tension can be added with a taper crimp.

For those newbies that don't know, crimps don't add neck tension, period. The best case with a properly adjusted crimp die is that it doesn't remove neck tension.

Neck tension is set with the sizing die, only. Everything you do after that step removes neck tension to some degree.

Apologies to all who have posted these facts previously, but this is such a widely misunderstood factor in reloading, it likely bares repeating, ah, repeatedly.
Almost right. Neck tension STARTS w/ proper sizing. Then the correct bullet size, case thickness & finally the expander button. Having thin brass & smaller bulelts, poor neck tension. A too large expander = poor neck tension. No amount of crimping will fix poor neck tension, ever, rifle or pistol. BTW, loading 500K rounds improperly doesn't make anyone right.
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Last edited by fredj338; 12-03-2012 at 14:23..
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:51   #30
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Almost right. Neck tension STARTS w/ proper sizing. Then the correct bullet size, case thickness & finally the expander button. Having thin brass & smaller bulelts, poor neck tension. A too large expander = poor neck tension. No amount of crimping will fix poor neck tension, ever, rifle or pistol. BTW, loading 500K rounds improperly doesn't make anyone right.
Now we are talking sematics.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:55   #31
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Then you were NOT setting the crimp die properly. There is no case flare that can not be removed w/ a proper roll or taper crimp. Case flare has nothing to do with final crimp.
It was huge. I didn't know, it just needed to be big enough for the bullet to sit on.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:57   #32
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
The Dillon 550B manual is a little more specific about belling. They suggest that 0.020" is enough.

IIRC, the 650 manual just says to bell it enough to allow the bullet to sit on the case.

Richard
I searched Youtube and found this out. When I say I am new, I am real new.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:09   #33
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I searched Youtube and found this out. When I say I am new, I am real new.
A word of warning. Just because someone makes a video of doing something on YouTube does not make them an expert. When it comes to reloading and Glocks I have seen a lot of you donít know what you are talking about videos.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:26   #34
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A word of warning. Just because someone makes a video of doing something on YouTube does not make them an expert. When it comes to reloading and Glocks I have seen a lot of you donít know what you are talking about videos.
I understand. Sometimes, I just need a place to start.

I have a friend that has been reloading for a long time. He has helped me from time to time, I just donít like to bother him too much.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:50   #35
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I understand. Sometimes, I just need a place to start.

I have a friend that has been reloading for a long time. He has helped me from time to time, I just donít like to bother him too much.
I cannot speak for your reloading friend. But most people that reload and know what they are talking about do not mind people asking questions. The only dumb question is the one that was not asked that blew up a gun. Just come out and ask the person if he minds helping you.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:57   #36
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OK, the OP's question was concerned with 9mm specifically. Now, the 9mm is not like other autoloading pistol rounds in one respect: the sides of the case are not parallel. Most autoloading cases are a cylinder. The 9mm is slightly tapered. A factory round measures .375 at the case mouth. Just ahead of the extractor groove it measures more like .385.

Now, most of us resize with a carbide die. Carbide dies do the resizing with a fairly narrow ring of carbide. The size of the ring is set to resize the mouth correctly. So, with a tapered case the carbide ring is squeezing the part of the case nearer the head more than is needed, and narrower than its original factory dimension. This is partly why handloads, more than factory loads, show a bulge where the bullet is. I do see that bulge a little on other cartridges too, but it's not as pronounced as on the 9.

I submit that, if you can see a visible bulge where the bullet is, you've got plenty of neck tension. Once again, there is no need to overthink this.
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Old 12-03-2012, 16:11   #37
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I am interested in learning proper crimp techniques also. Just for reference this picture is of a pulled factory target load. It's not a great picture but if you look close you can see a faint mark where it was crimped.

Reloading

The diameter on the case below the bullet was .355. Diameter on the case, on the bullet, but below the mouth was .375. It was .375 on the mouth too. OAL was 1.152.

Don't know if any of this helps anyone or not, just posted for referrence.
David
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Old 12-03-2012, 16:21   #38
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Is it a good idea to use factory loaded ammunition as an example for your reloads? As in gauging the overall length and diameter of the crimped lip of the brass around the bullet.
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Old 12-03-2012, 16:24   #39
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
OK, the OP's question was concerned with 9mm specifically. Now, the 9mm is not like other autoloading pistol rounds in one respect: the sides of the case are not parallel. Most autoloading cases are a cylinder. The 9mm is slightly tapered. A factory round measures .375 at the case mouth. Just ahead of the extractor groove it measures more like .385.

Now, most of us resize with a carbide die. Carbide dies do the resizing with a fairly narrow ring of carbide. The size of the ring is set to resize the mouth correctly. So, with a tapered case the carbide ring is squeezing the part of the case nearer the head more than is needed, and narrower than its original factory dimension. This is partly why handloads, more than factory loads, show a bulge where the bullet is. I do see that bulge a little on other cartridges too, but it's not as pronounced as on the 9.

I submit that, if you can see a visible bulge where the bullet is, you've got plenty of neck tension. Once again, there is no need to overthink this.
The carbide ring is in the base of the die. A 9mm round is .381 at the mount of the case and .391 in the web area of the case.
Forget measuring factory rounds. If you measure different brands they are not the same and even in the same box a lot of time they donít measure the same. You just want to remove the bell of the case where with a pulled bullet you have a very faint ring or no ring on the bullet.
We are dealing with plated bullets. If you over crimp a plated bullet you start having all kinds of problems. Remember if you over crimp a plated bullet you start sizing the bullet. The bullet will size down and stay there. The brass wants to go back to the size it was before, but only can go back just so far. Just like bending metal you go past the angle you want the metal to be at. So now you a have a sized bullet and destroyed the neck tension that once was before the over crimping.
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Old 12-03-2012, 16:31   #40
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Is it a good idea to use factory loaded ammunition as an example for your reloads? As in gauging the overall length and diameter of the crimped lip of the brass around the bullet.
it is not a good idea to use factory rounds as a reference.
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