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Old 12-03-2012, 07:29   #26
unclebob
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I have to agree with what Fred has said. Have loaded way to many plated bullets to not too.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:28   #27
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
... (Of course, the whole purpose of a taper crimp is TO APPLY NECK TENSION along the (flat) sides of a bullet instead of directly against the cannelure. .
I couldn't decide if you were mocking the notion of neck tension being added by a taper crimp, or if you were under the impression that it actually can add neck tension.

I read your post again and realized you had loaded a half millon rounds, so I concluded you had to be mocking the notion that neck tension can be added with a taper crimp.

For those newbies that don't know, crimps don't add neck tension, period. The best case with a properly adjusted crimp die is that it doesn't remove neck tension.

Neck tension is set with the sizing die, only. Everything you do after that step removes neck tension to some degree.

Apologies to all who have posted these facts previously, but this is such a widely misunderstood factor in reloading, it likely bares repeating, ah, repeatedly.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:19   #28
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Wow, that's profound! You know, I don't think I've ever argued semantics in the reloading forum before. I've had plenty of stupid arguments, here, but none of them were semantic.
Good luck with this; it's now gone on for way longer than necessary.
Not semantics at all, your statement is just incorrect. Making ammo that goes bang is not my intention. Making reliable accurate ammo is. Overcrimp & you are makign a round that is less reliable & less accurate, just fact. Sure, some guys can't tell the diff between accurate & less accuarte, maybe that is what the issue is for many, just not me. I can see the diff in ammo made w/ LFCD, & can see the diff w/ ammo that is loaded incorrectly & over crimped.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:21   #29
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Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
I couldn't decide if you were mocking the notion of neck tension being added by a taper crimp, or if you were under the impression that it actually can add neck tension.

I read your post again and realized you had loaded a half millon rounds, so I concluded you had to be mocking the notion that neck tension can be added with a taper crimp.

For those newbies that don't know, crimps don't add neck tension, period. The best case with a properly adjusted crimp die is that it doesn't remove neck tension.

Neck tension is set with the sizing die, only. Everything you do after that step removes neck tension to some degree.

Apologies to all who have posted these facts previously, but this is such a widely misunderstood factor in reloading, it likely bares repeating, ah, repeatedly.
Almost right. Neck tension STARTS w/ proper sizing. Then the correct bullet size, case thickness & finally the expander button. Having thin brass & smaller bulelts, poor neck tension. A too large expander = poor neck tension. No amount of crimping will fix poor neck tension, ever, rifle or pistol. BTW, loading 500K rounds improperly doesn't make anyone right.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:51   #30
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Almost right. Neck tension STARTS w/ proper sizing. Then the correct bullet size, case thickness & finally the expander button. Having thin brass & smaller bulelts, poor neck tension. A too large expander = poor neck tension. No amount of crimping will fix poor neck tension, ever, rifle or pistol. BTW, loading 500K rounds improperly doesn't make anyone right.
Now we are talking sematics.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:55   #31
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Then you were NOT setting the crimp die properly. There is no case flare that can not be removed w/ a proper roll or taper crimp. Case flare has nothing to do with final crimp.
It was huge. I didn't know, it just needed to be big enough for the bullet to sit on.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:57   #32
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The Dillon 550B manual is a little more specific about belling. They suggest that 0.020" is enough.

IIRC, the 650 manual just says to bell it enough to allow the bullet to sit on the case.

Richard
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:09   #33
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I searched Youtube and found this out. When I say I am new, I am real new.
A word of warning. Just because someone makes a video of doing something on YouTube does not make them an expert. When it comes to reloading and Glocks I have seen a lot of you donít know what you are talking about videos.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:26   #34
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A word of warning. Just because someone makes a video of doing something on YouTube does not make them an expert. When it comes to reloading and Glocks I have seen a lot of you donít know what you are talking about videos.
I understand. Sometimes, I just need a place to start.

I have a friend that has been reloading for a long time. He has helped me from time to time, I just donít like to bother him too much.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:50   #35
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Originally Posted by smokin762 View Post
I understand. Sometimes, I just need a place to start.

I have a friend that has been reloading for a long time. He has helped me from time to time, I just donít like to bother him too much.
I cannot speak for your reloading friend. But most people that reload and know what they are talking about do not mind people asking questions. The only dumb question is the one that was not asked that blew up a gun. Just come out and ask the person if he minds helping you.
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Old 12-03-2012, 14:57   #36
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OK, the OP's question was concerned with 9mm specifically. Now, the 9mm is not like other autoloading pistol rounds in one respect: the sides of the case are not parallel. Most autoloading cases are a cylinder. The 9mm is slightly tapered. A factory round measures .375 at the case mouth. Just ahead of the extractor groove it measures more like .385.

Now, most of us resize with a carbide die. Carbide dies do the resizing with a fairly narrow ring of carbide. The size of the ring is set to resize the mouth correctly. So, with a tapered case the carbide ring is squeezing the part of the case nearer the head more than is needed, and narrower than its original factory dimension. This is partly why handloads, more than factory loads, show a bulge where the bullet is. I do see that bulge a little on other cartridges too, but it's not as pronounced as on the 9.

I submit that, if you can see a visible bulge where the bullet is, you've got plenty of neck tension. Once again, there is no need to overthink this.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:11   #37
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I am interested in learning proper crimp techniques also. Just for reference this picture is of a pulled factory target load. It's not a great picture but if you look close you can see a faint mark where it was crimped.

Reloading

The diameter on the case below the bullet was .355. Diameter on the case, on the bullet, but below the mouth was .375. It was .375 on the mouth too. OAL was 1.152.

Don't know if any of this helps anyone or not, just posted for referrence.
David
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:21   #38
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Is it a good idea to use factory loaded ammunition as an example for your reloads? As in gauging the overall length and diameter of the crimped lip of the brass around the bullet.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:24   #39
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
OK, the OP's question was concerned with 9mm specifically. Now, the 9mm is not like other autoloading pistol rounds in one respect: the sides of the case are not parallel. Most autoloading cases are a cylinder. The 9mm is slightly tapered. A factory round measures .375 at the case mouth. Just ahead of the extractor groove it measures more like .385.

Now, most of us resize with a carbide die. Carbide dies do the resizing with a fairly narrow ring of carbide. The size of the ring is set to resize the mouth correctly. So, with a tapered case the carbide ring is squeezing the part of the case nearer the head more than is needed, and narrower than its original factory dimension. This is partly why handloads, more than factory loads, show a bulge where the bullet is. I do see that bulge a little on other cartridges too, but it's not as pronounced as on the 9.

I submit that, if you can see a visible bulge where the bullet is, you've got plenty of neck tension. Once again, there is no need to overthink this.
The carbide ring is in the base of the die. A 9mm round is .381 at the mount of the case and .391 in the web area of the case.
Forget measuring factory rounds. If you measure different brands they are not the same and even in the same box a lot of time they donít measure the same. You just want to remove the bell of the case where with a pulled bullet you have a very faint ring or no ring on the bullet.
We are dealing with plated bullets. If you over crimp a plated bullet you start having all kinds of problems. Remember if you over crimp a plated bullet you start sizing the bullet. The bullet will size down and stay there. The brass wants to go back to the size it was before, but only can go back just so far. Just like bending metal you go past the angle you want the metal to be at. So now you a have a sized bullet and destroyed the neck tension that once was before the over crimping.
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Old 12-03-2012, 15:31   #40
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Is it a good idea to use factory loaded ammunition as an example for your reloads? As in gauging the overall length and diameter of the crimped lip of the brass around the bullet.
it is not a good idea to use factory rounds as a reference.
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Old 12-03-2012, 16:24   #41
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The carbide ring is in the base of the die. A 9mm round is .381 at the mount of the case and .391 in the web area of the case.
Forget measuring factory rounds. If you measure different brands they are not the same and even in the same box a lot of time they donít measure the same. You just want to remove the bell of the case where with a pulled bullet you have a very faint ring or no ring on the bullet.
We are dealing with plated bullets. If you over crimp a plated bullet you start having all kinds of problems. Remember if you over crimp a plated bullet you start sizing the bullet. The bullet will size down and stay there. The brass wants to go back to the size it was before, but only can go back just so far. Just like bending metal you go past the angle you want the metal to be at. So now you a have a sized bullet and destroyed the neck tension that once was before the over crimping.
Well, sir, I beg to differ. I just measured several different brands of factory ammo, several examples of each. About 30 cartridges in all. It's quite consistent. They're all .385" just in front of the extractor groove plus or minus .001". They're all .375" at the case mouth plus or minus .001" I never got anything like .381 and .391. The SAAMI spec is .391 and .380, but no one seems to be manufacturing to that spec. I measured Speer brass and nickle (Gold Dots), Remington, Winchester, and Federal cartridges.

I also measured some of my handloads with plated bullets, and they came out about the same.

Yes, the carbide ring is at the base of the die. So, therefore, it goes almost all the way to the base of the case. That was my point. Thank you.

And where in the World did you get the idea that I was advocating overcrimping. I'm the one that's been saying that all you want to do is remove the bell. The mouth of the case should measure the same as just behind it. That is not overcrimping. That's not crimping at all. No way.

And why on Earth is it a bad idea to use quality, name brand factory ammo as a reference for your reloads, to the extent that it is possible to do so?
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Old 12-03-2012, 17:45   #42
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Now we are talking sematics.
Not really Willy. A properly sized case can still have poor neck tension IF the exspander is too large &/or the brass is thin, or bullet small. Example, I can't run 0.451" jacketed bullets in RP brass, I don't get proper neck tension, the brass is just too thin. There are some small issues with reloading that are not semantics but can mess up your ammo to one degree or another. So I am just trying to keep the noobs straight. For the guys that want to do it wrong after 500K rds, I can't help them.
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Old 12-03-2012, 17:49   #43
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Is it a good idea to use factory loaded ammunition as an example for your reloads? As in gauging the overall length and diameter of the crimped lip of the brass around the bullet.
Not really, depends on the ammo. I have pulled Fed & WWB 45acp, the bullets are way over crimped. The bullet shanks measure as small as 0.448"!!! Accuracy will be ok up close, inside 21ft, where many, many shooters live, but beyond that, unacceptable for me. So measure facotry is fine, if you want factory results with that exact brass & bullet combo.
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Old 12-03-2012, 18:09   #44
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I just started to test load some plated bullets that I ordered, so all this info. is a help to me so dont stop talking about plated now.
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Old 12-03-2012, 19:18   #45
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Well, let me start off saying, "Thank you to all that have provided so much information!" I know I have benefited from the knowledge of more experienced reloaders, and hopefully others have too.

I have been using the technique given in the 550B manual when setting all the stations, especially the crimping. I start with the cartridge in the holder at the top and lower the die until it touches, and turn it down at approximately 1/8 of a turn until I reach the desired crimp. It seems to me, the best way to reach that desired crimp is to be willing to pull the bullet and examine the bullet for excessive pressure marks, especially when using plated bullets!

When I originally posted this thread, I had gotten in a hurry and did not take the time to do this. I was relying on just measuring and touching the case to determine when I had sufficiently removed enough of the bell.

After reading many of these posts, I realized it was time for me go back to the basics of comparing measurements shown in the SAAMI 9mm bullet diagram.

I found that I had too much bell, which I believe later created problems with the crimping station. I always believed that one should only bell the case so that the bullet barely rests in the mouth opening without chance of scraping the sides of the bullet when loaded. I thought it was unusual that the Dillion instructional video showed the narrator setting the bell as much as he did. The bullet looked to be setting cock-eyed in the mouth. Perhaps that doesn't really matter, I don't know, I am fairly new to all this.

Anyway, I now have produced several cartridges that have the proper bell and crimp. I pulled several of the last bullets when making the final crimp adjustments, and found that the sides of the bullet had no abrasions or rings, yet the bullet was held firmly in place, and easily fit in and out of the case gauge.

I will take them to the range and compare the bullets originally loaded with this last set and compare them for accuracy.

Steve
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Old 12-03-2012, 20:01   #46
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I just started to test load some plated bullets that I ordered, so all this info. is a help to me so dont stop talking about plated now.
I think some of us would ask why you are using plated bullets. Unless you got a real deal, they probably aren't cheaper than FMJ from Precision Delta.

The nice thing about jacketed bullets (or hard cast lead for that matter) is that they aren't fragile and, more important to me, there is actual published data. Not some "load somewhere around mid jacketed" kind of thing.

Richard
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:36   #47
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Not really Willy. A properly sized case can still have poor neck tension IF the exspander is too large &/or the brass is thin, or bullet small. Example, I can't run 0.451" jacketed bullets in RP brass, I don't get proper neck tension, the brass is just too thin. There are some small issues with reloading that are not semantics but can mess up your ammo to one degree or another. So I am just trying to keep the noobs straight. For the guys that want to do it wrong after 500K rds, I can't help them.
The reason it was sematics, or perhaps pedantics, is I never said anything about "proper neck tension". For a given case and bullet, the sizing die sets the neck tension (an expander button, if even present, is part of the sizing), so you see, it wasn't "almost right."

In the spirit of adding extraneous information to the discussion to display our command of the subject matter to those who don't possess our years of experience, I would say you might give one of those U Dies a try on your R-P brass when loading jacketed bullets. Please don't say you already have one to de-Glock your brass...
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Old 12-04-2012, 00:05   #48
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The reason it was sematics, or perhaps pedantics, is I never said anything about "proper neck tension". For a given case and bullet, the sizing die sets the neck tension (an expander button, if even present, is part of the sizing), so you see, it wasn't "almost right."

In the spirit of adding extraneous information to the discussion to display our command of the subject matter to those who don't possess our years of experience, I would say you might give one of those U Dies a try on your R-P brass when loading jacketed bullets. Please don't say you already have one to de-Glock your brass...
Now you are spinning. Willy. In hangun ammo, the sizing die sizes. The flare or belling die flares, they ar not the same process, so it' not semantics but about proper terminology. SOme noob will think he has it all nailed if he sizes it right. Again, they work in tandum, you can have a perfect sizing die & an oversize expander button & you will not have proper neck tension. Yes, proper is the term, it is what you want. You don't want close or almost or good enough.
Now don't use the button, as I have in some rifle reloading, then the sizing die sets the neck tension. With handguns, the two work in tandem. The OP was talking handgun, so I just want to make sure he understands how all this works.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:30   #49
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I crimp just enough to take the bell out of the case mouth and so the cartridge will fit the chamber.
Anything more (in my opinion) just raises pressures.
Just my opinion.
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Old 12-04-2012, 14:58   #50
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Not really, depends on the ammo. I have pulled Fed & WWB 45acp, the bullets are way over crimped. The bullet shanks measure as small as 0.448"!!! Accuracy will be ok up close, inside 21ft, where many, many shooters live, but beyond that, unacceptable for me. So measure facotry is fine, if you want factory results with that exact brass & bullet combo.
Thank you for the response.

I have the Lyman and Hornady manuals. Some of the information to me is a little confusing. I am starting out on .45 ACP. I am using Accurate #5 with Hornady 230 gr FMJ.

With the powder and bullet weight I am using, the Hornady manual reads, C.O.L..1.230”

With the powder I am using, the Lyman manual only lists a 225 gr.FMJ Bullet and it reads, C.O.L..1.272” OAL.

I am using mixed brass and the case lengths do vary. I’m not really sure which C.O.L. length to go with. I measured some factory UMC 230 gr FMJ and varied from C.O.L..1.253”- 1.262”.

Do I go with the Hornady manual or do I go with the Lyman manual? Is it safe to split the difference?
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