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Old 12-03-2012, 17:24   #41
dhgeyer
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Originally Posted by unclebob View Post
The carbide ring is in the base of the die. A 9mm round is .381 at the mount of the case and .391 in the web area of the case.
Forget measuring factory rounds. If you measure different brands they are not the same and even in the same box a lot of time they donít measure the same. You just want to remove the bell of the case where with a pulled bullet you have a very faint ring or no ring on the bullet.
We are dealing with plated bullets. If you over crimp a plated bullet you start having all kinds of problems. Remember if you over crimp a plated bullet you start sizing the bullet. The bullet will size down and stay there. The brass wants to go back to the size it was before, but only can go back just so far. Just like bending metal you go past the angle you want the metal to be at. So now you a have a sized bullet and destroyed the neck tension that once was before the over crimping.
Well, sir, I beg to differ. I just measured several different brands of factory ammo, several examples of each. About 30 cartridges in all. It's quite consistent. They're all .385" just in front of the extractor groove plus or minus .001". They're all .375" at the case mouth plus or minus .001" I never got anything like .381 and .391. The SAAMI spec is .391 and .380, but no one seems to be manufacturing to that spec. I measured Speer brass and nickle (Gold Dots), Remington, Winchester, and Federal cartridges.

I also measured some of my handloads with plated bullets, and they came out about the same.

Yes, the carbide ring is at the base of the die. So, therefore, it goes almost all the way to the base of the case. That was my point. Thank you.

And where in the World did you get the idea that I was advocating overcrimping. I'm the one that's been saying that all you want to do is remove the bell. The mouth of the case should measure the same as just behind it. That is not overcrimping. That's not crimping at all. No way.

And why on Earth is it a bad idea to use quality, name brand factory ammo as a reference for your reloads, to the extent that it is possible to do so?
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Old 12-03-2012, 18:45   #42
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Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
Now we are talking sematics.
Not really Willy. A properly sized case can still have poor neck tension IF the exspander is too large &/or the brass is thin, or bullet small. Example, I can't run 0.451" jacketed bullets in RP brass, I don't get proper neck tension, the brass is just too thin. There are some small issues with reloading that are not semantics but can mess up your ammo to one degree or another. So I am just trying to keep the noobs straight. For the guys that want to do it wrong after 500K rds, I can't help them.
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Old 12-03-2012, 18:49   #43
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Is it a good idea to use factory loaded ammunition as an example for your reloads? As in gauging the overall length and diameter of the crimped lip of the brass around the bullet.
Not really, depends on the ammo. I have pulled Fed & WWB 45acp, the bullets are way over crimped. The bullet shanks measure as small as 0.448"!!! Accuracy will be ok up close, inside 21ft, where many, many shooters live, but beyond that, unacceptable for me. So measure facotry is fine, if you want factory results with that exact brass & bullet combo.
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Last edited by fredj338; 12-03-2012 at 18:50..
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Old 12-03-2012, 19:09   #44
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I just started to test load some plated bullets that I ordered, so all this info. is a help to me so dont stop talking about plated now.
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Old 12-03-2012, 20:18   #45
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Well, let me start off saying, "Thank you to all that have provided so much information!" I know I have benefited from the knowledge of more experienced reloaders, and hopefully others have too.

I have been using the technique given in the 550B manual when setting all the stations, especially the crimping. I start with the cartridge in the holder at the top and lower the die until it touches, and turn it down at approximately 1/8 of a turn until I reach the desired crimp. It seems to me, the best way to reach that desired crimp is to be willing to pull the bullet and examine the bullet for excessive pressure marks, especially when using plated bullets!

When I originally posted this thread, I had gotten in a hurry and did not take the time to do this. I was relying on just measuring and touching the case to determine when I had sufficiently removed enough of the bell.

After reading many of these posts, I realized it was time for me go back to the basics of comparing measurements shown in the SAAMI 9mm bullet diagram.

I found that I had too much bell, which I believe later created problems with the crimping station. I always believed that one should only bell the case so that the bullet barely rests in the mouth opening without chance of scraping the sides of the bullet when loaded. I thought it was unusual that the Dillion instructional video showed the narrator setting the bell as much as he did. The bullet looked to be setting cock-eyed in the mouth. Perhaps that doesn't really matter, I don't know, I am fairly new to all this.

Anyway, I now have produced several cartridges that have the proper bell and crimp. I pulled several of the last bullets when making the final crimp adjustments, and found that the sides of the bullet had no abrasions or rings, yet the bullet was held firmly in place, and easily fit in and out of the case gauge.

I will take them to the range and compare the bullets originally loaded with this last set and compare them for accuracy.

Steve
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Old 12-03-2012, 21:01   #46
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Originally Posted by dstanley66 View Post
I just started to test load some plated bullets that I ordered, so all this info. is a help to me so dont stop talking about plated now.
I think some of us would ask why you are using plated bullets. Unless you got a real deal, they probably aren't cheaper than FMJ from Precision Delta.

The nice thing about jacketed bullets (or hard cast lead for that matter) is that they aren't fragile and, more important to me, there is actual published data. Not some "load somewhere around mid jacketed" kind of thing.

Richard
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:36   #47
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Not really Willy. A properly sized case can still have poor neck tension IF the exspander is too large &/or the brass is thin, or bullet small. Example, I can't run 0.451" jacketed bullets in RP brass, I don't get proper neck tension, the brass is just too thin. There are some small issues with reloading that are not semantics but can mess up your ammo to one degree or another. So I am just trying to keep the noobs straight. For the guys that want to do it wrong after 500K rds, I can't help them.
The reason it was sematics, or perhaps pedantics, is I never said anything about "proper neck tension". For a given case and bullet, the sizing die sets the neck tension (an expander button, if even present, is part of the sizing), so you see, it wasn't "almost right."

In the spirit of adding extraneous information to the discussion to display our command of the subject matter to those who don't possess our years of experience, I would say you might give one of those U Dies a try on your R-P brass when loading jacketed bullets. Please don't say you already have one to de-Glock your brass...
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:05   #48
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Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
The reason it was sematics, or perhaps pedantics, is I never said anything about "proper neck tension". For a given case and bullet, the sizing die sets the neck tension (an expander button, if even present, is part of the sizing), so you see, it wasn't "almost right."

In the spirit of adding extraneous information to the discussion to display our command of the subject matter to those who don't possess our years of experience, I would say you might give one of those U Dies a try on your R-P brass when loading jacketed bullets. Please don't say you already have one to de-Glock your brass...
Now you are spinning. Willy. In hangun ammo, the sizing die sizes. The flare or belling die flares, they ar not the same process, so it' not semantics but about proper terminology. SOme noob will think he has it all nailed if he sizes it right. Again, they work in tandum, you can have a perfect sizing die & an oversize expander button & you will not have proper neck tension. Yes, proper is the term, it is what you want. You don't want close or almost or good enough.
Now don't use the button, as I have in some rifle reloading, then the sizing die sets the neck tension. With handguns, the two work in tandem. The OP was talking handgun, so I just want to make sure he understands how all this works.
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Last edited by fredj338; 12-04-2012 at 01:07..
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:30   #49
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I crimp just enough to take the bell out of the case mouth and so the cartridge will fit the chamber.
Anything more (in my opinion) just raises pressures.
Just my opinion.
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Old 12-04-2012, 15:58   #50
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Not really, depends on the ammo. I have pulled Fed & WWB 45acp, the bullets are way over crimped. The bullet shanks measure as small as 0.448"!!! Accuracy will be ok up close, inside 21ft, where many, many shooters live, but beyond that, unacceptable for me. So measure facotry is fine, if you want factory results with that exact brass & bullet combo.
Thank you for the response.

I have the Lyman and Hornady manuals. Some of the information to me is a little confusing. I am starting out on .45 ACP. I am using Accurate #5 with Hornady 230 gr FMJ.

With the powder and bullet weight I am using, the Hornady manual reads, C.O.L..1.230”

With the powder I am using, the Lyman manual only lists a 225 gr.FMJ Bullet and it reads, C.O.L..1.272” OAL.

I am using mixed brass and the case lengths do vary. I’m not really sure which C.O.L. length to go with. I measured some factory UMC 230 gr FMJ and varied from C.O.L..1.253”- 1.262”.

Do I go with the Hornady manual or do I go with the Lyman manual? Is it safe to split the difference?
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Old 12-04-2012, 17:12   #51
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Originally Posted by smokin762 View Post
Thank you for the response.

I have the Lyman and Hornady manuals. Some of the information to me is a little confusing. I am starting out on .45 ACP. I am using Accurate #5 with Hornady 230 gr FMJ.

With the powder and bullet weight I am using, the Hornady manual reads, C.O.L..1.230”

With the powder I am using, the Lyman manual only lists a 225 gr.FMJ Bullet and it reads, C.O.L..1.272” OAL.

I am using mixed brass and the case lengths do vary. I’m not really sure which C.O.L. length to go with. I measured some factory UMC 230 gr FMJ and varied from C.O.L..1.253”- 1.262”.

Do I go with the Hornady manual or do I go with the Lyman manual? Is it safe to split the difference?

You should dance with the one that brought you!

If you are using a bullet that matches the Hornady manual and you are using their load data, it makes sense to use their OAL. Dance with them!

Of couse the Lyman manual will be longer! The bullet is heavier, therefore longer, and they need to maintain case volume.

I load 230 gr LRN and FMJ as well as 200 gr LSWC to 1.250"

You need to be certain that you don't load too short as that will increase pressure. You also need to be certain you don't load too long or a) the rounds won't fit in the magazine or b) the bullet will impact the rifling.

But, when you think about it, what's 0.020"? Hornady says 1.230" and I use 1.250". I doubt there's a whit of difference.

You will also find that Hornady is often VERY conservative when compared to something like Speer #14. No guarantees, of course, but you are unlikely to get an overpressure situation using Hornady data, as published.

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 12-04-2012 at 17:13..
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Old 12-04-2012, 18:40   #52
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You should dance with the one that brought you!

If you are using a bullet that matches the Hornady manual and you are using their load data, it makes sense to use their OAL. Dance with them!

Of couse the Lyman manual will be longer! The bullet is heavier, therefore longer, and they need to maintain case volume.

I load 230 gr LRN and FMJ as well as 200 gr LSWC to 1.250"

You need to be certain that you don't load too short as that will increase pressure. You also need to be certain you don't load too long or a) the rounds won't fit in the magazine or b) the bullet will impact the rifling.

But, when you think about it, what's 0.020"? Hornady says 1.230" and I use 1.250". I doubt there's a whit of difference.

You will also find that Hornady is often VERY conservative when compared to something like Speer #14. No guarantees, of course, but you are unlikely to get an overpressure situation using Hornady data, as published.

Richard
Thank you,

I never heard of the term bullet impacting the rifling. What is that? How do I check for that? So much to learn.
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Old 12-04-2012, 18:54   #53
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Thank you,

I never heard of the term bullet impacting the rifling. What is that? How do I check for that? So much to learn.
It is when the bullet touches the lands of the barrel as it sits in the chamber.

Editted, to "lands", not "landing". Thank you Fred!

Last edited by SBray; 12-04-2012 at 19:22.. Reason: wrong word
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Old 12-04-2012, 19:12   #54
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It is when the bullet touches the landings of the barrel as it sits in the chamber.
Not landing but lands Just trying to help.
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Old 12-04-2012, 19:14   #55
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Originally Posted by smokin762 View Post
Thank you for the response.

I have the Lyman and Hornady manuals. Some of the information to me is a little confusing. I am starting out on .45 ACP. I am using Accurate #5 with Hornady 230 gr FMJ.

With the powder and bullet weight I am using, the Hornady manual reads, C.O.L..1.230”

With the powder I am using, the Lyman manual only lists a 225 gr.FMJ Bullet and it reads, C.O.L..1.272” OAL.

I am using mixed brass and the case lengths do vary. I’m not really sure which C.O.L. length to go with. I measured some factory UMC 230 gr FMJ and varied from C.O.L..1.253”- 1.262”.

Do I go with the Hornady manual or do I go with the Lyman manual? Is it safe to split the difference?
Just keep in mind OAL is ALWAYS bullet & gun specific. So the OAL in any manual is a guide not gosspel. SO make a dummy round, drop it into your removed bbl. If it fits, then try the mag, loaded fully. If it's shorter than the data you are using, you want to approach max carefully, pressures are higher as a handgun bullet seats deeper.
BTW, 0.020" can make a diff in some guns, so always check YOUR bbl. Loads that fit all my 1911s would just come up a bit long for my XD. So now I seat them all 0.020" deeper.
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Old 12-04-2012, 19:18   #56
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Thank you,

I never heard of the term bullet impacting the rifling. What is that? How do I check for that? So much to learn.
Stoney Point once made an O.A. L. gauge that I used when setting up the overall length of a rifle bullet I was loading in a bolt action rifle. It was a mock-up of a rifle bullet that had a threaded end that their tool screwed into various commonly used rifle cases. A bullet was placed in the mouth of this case, and the whole piece was inserted into the chamber. The user would then slide the plastic rod into the case and push the bullet forward until it touched the lands of the chamber. The user then gently tighten down a set screw and withdrew the unit. The user was then left with a sample of the overall length of the bullet (as it touched the lands) to begin determining what OAL to be setup.

I have attached a photo of one of these gauges.
Attached Thumbnails
Reloading - Click for larger version  

Last edited by SBray; 12-04-2012 at 19:24.. Reason: added info
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Old 12-04-2012, 19:42   #57
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Stoney Point once made an O.A. L. gauge that I used when setting up the overall length of a rifle bullet I was loading in a bolt action rifle. It was a mock-up of a rifle bullet that had a threaded end that their tool screwed into various commonly used rifle cases. A bullet was placed in the mouth of this case, and the whole piece was inserted into the chamber. The user would then slide the plastic rod into the case and push the bullet forward until it touched the lands of the chamber. The user then gently tighten down a set screw and withdrew the unit. The user was then left with a sample of the overall length of the bullet (as it touched the lands) to begin determining what OAL to be setup.

I have attached a photo of one of these gauges.
Hornady sells them now

Richard
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Old 12-04-2012, 19:43   #58
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It is when the bullet touches the landings of the barrel as it sits in the chamber.
Airplanes have landings. Rifled barrels have lands. And grooves. Except polygonal rifling, which has neither. It has more like, well, sides.

Normally you don't want the bullet to be seated out so far that it contacts the rifling. Rifling doesn't start abruptly at the shoulder of the chamber. It kind of ramps in from the end of the chamber. This part of the barrel is called the throat. That's hard to see with Glock rifling, but you can detect it. If you look at the barrel, out of the gun, from the front against a moderately strong plain light source you see the bore at the muzzle is an octagon. If you turn the barrel around and look at the bore right at the step at the shoulder of the chamber, it's a circle.

In a semi-auto pistol having the bullet protrude into the throat far enough to contact the rifling would be very bad, for two reasons. It would prevent the cartridge from headspacing on the case mouth as it is supposed to do, and it would raise chamber pressure. Such rounds likely wouldn't fit in the magazine anyway. And if they did, they might not feed well.

Back in the day the way you determined how deep to seat bottleneck rifle bullets in an individual rifle was to put a bullet in an empty cartridge that was slightly deformed, just enough to hold the bullet with some tension. You would just insert the bullet in the case a little bit. Then you would chamber the dummy round and extract it. This would give you the overall length if the bullet went to the end of the throat and contacted the rifling. You would then seat your real rounds a bit deeper than that. How far the bullet travels from its seated position in the cartridge until it hits the rifling is called freebore. More freebore yields greater velocity at lower pressures, but is not great for accuracy. Some bench rest shooters insisted that using the original length, where the bullet was slightly engraved by the rifling, improved accuracy. One would have to compensate load data, as this would also raise chamber pressure.

More than anyone wanted to know, I'm sure.

EDIT: How deep to seat a bullet in a semi-auto pistol case is a balancing act between fitting in the magazine, having some, but not excessive freebore, seating deep enough to hold the bullet securely, not seating so deep as to raise chamber pressure, and, finally, finding an overall length that feeds well.

Last edited by dhgeyer; 12-04-2012 at 19:57..
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Old 12-04-2012, 19:52   #59
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Generally, pistols won't fit a round in the mag that touches the rifling, but not always. Some guns, like CZ 75's are known for having short throats that won't accommodate rounds that will fit in the mag.
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Old 12-04-2012, 20:12   #60
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Generally, pistols won't fit a round in the mag that touches the rifling, but not always. Some guns, like CZ 75's are known for having short throats that won't accommodate rounds that will fit in the mag.
Now, my CZ85 Combat won't feed Rem/UMC range ammo. It's too short. The cartridges wind up jammed up against the barrel hood. In experimenting with trying to correct this, I also found that the neck tension on Rem/UMC is not too strong. When I kept using the same rounds to test with, I found they were getting shorter as the bullets were getting beaten back into the cases. I didn't shoot those! Needless to say I use other brands or handloads in the CZ.
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