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Old 12-04-2012, 22:21   #1
akmtnrunner
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Why go 10mm if 460 Rowland does the same, better?

My curiosity on the 460 Rowland peaked last weekend and I ended up doing a few hours research on whatever I could find online. Long story short, I'm really impressed with conversion options, specifically for the Glock 21.

There's a good video here by MrRedbul616.
At 10:20 in the video, there's a good side shot to show recoil, and it looks very manageable with the compensator and of course good technique.

I saw a fair amount of concern for beating up the pistol with that kind of pressure and recoil in discussions, though that also could have just been based in fear and myth. It's looking like from reports in the last year that those guys making the conversion packages are pretty well dialed now and G21's and G30's are working flawlessly. Granted, as long as the owner/shooter dots their i's and crosses their t's. The problems that I've ready about were from folks trying to be extra creative along the process.

So that puts me in an interesting situation. A month ago, I was really really happy with my 10mm because I could have it loaded somewhat lower for urban needs and higher for wilderness needs. But honestly, if a G21 or G30 converted for the 460 Rowland can reliably throw the 460, 45 super and hot 45 ACP with comparable recoil to a 10mm and with no more than the ammo change, why would someone looking to cover those bases not prefer the latter?

I do understand the slight edge in sectional density that the 10mm has, but that is only very slight compared to the ballistic advantages. And, from what little actually comparison between the two cartridges in actual tests, apparently the 460 Rowland was still better. But then again, I can't say how those tests were done.

If you started from scratch right now and wanted a set up that could be a fullsize carry/nightstand piece and serve well for light wilderness protection, would you go 10mm in Glock 20 or 29, or 460 Rowland in Glock 21 or 30?
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Old 12-05-2012, 00:00   #2
ctious
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For me the 10mm wins. For a few reasons. One. You don't need a comp. Comps make things loud. No good for unprotected ears while hunting. Also. Downrange the 10mm is falter shooting. Don't get me wrong I would like to have a 460. But for now the 10mm is a better choice.
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Old 12-05-2012, 00:59   #3
Any Cal.
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Tough call if you don't have either one yet. I have not worked with the .460 at all, but seriously doubt recoil would be similar, due to that whole physics thing. After watching the video, you are seeing the comp working. Take a look at my vid on the gofastman's compensator thread. Anyhow, if starting from scratch, I would probably go with .460, here is why...

.460 uses .452 bullets, which are available in more variety than .401. (For woods use, anyway)
Easily shoots .45 ACP, which seem to be more available and affordable.
Large slide can be converted to 10mm as well.
More loading data for .45 ACP.


That being said, I prefer the 10mm personally, and here is why...

Greater safety margin in slide and barrel.
Same or better SD at equivalent speeds as .460 Rowland.
Better slide to bullet weight for easier gun tuning.
Lower recoil.
More rounds.

I don't think either is a bad choice, but don't think either is really substantially different either. Standard .460 is 260 @ 1150? My standard 10mm load is 230 @ 1120ish, and the SD is considerably higher(equivalent to a 280ish grain .45 caliber). The .460 could possibly perform a bit better on deer, due to larger meplats at speed, but think the 10mm may have an edge in penetration with the right bullets, and all the differences may be academic anyway.

The .460 suffers from the short OAL, just as the 10mm does, which keeps it from using better powders and heavier bullets. It also uses a slide that weighs a bit less than the 10s, which means that the slide speed will be higher yet. It pretty well has to use the comp to be functional at all. You could shoot lower powered ammo without one, though.

-Edit- .460 runs a 260g @ 1150, which is a similar in Sectional density to a 200g .40. Also, it pushes the 230g to an advertised 1340, which is the same SD as a 180g .40. .460#s according to Wikipedia, sourced from .460 Rowland LLC.

Last edited by Any Cal.; 12-05-2012 at 02:41..
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:17   #4
attrapereves
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Although the 10mm isn't as popular as 45ACP, 9mm, or 40SW, I'd still prefer the 10mm over some of these other weird calibers like 460Rowland, 9x25 dillon, and 45 Super.

For many of these, brass is only produced by one company, and it usually costs more than 10mm. Also, reloading die sets are pricey. Also, good luck finding reliable load data. Worst of all, there are very few, if any guns chambered in these calibers from the factory.

They might make nice range toys or hunting companions, but I don't feel comfortable carrying something for self defense if I have to use a conversion barrel and can't find any ammo locally. Most gun shops have at least one or two different types of 10mm.

I'll stick to 10mm, because we never know when these novelty calibers may lose die sets, brass, etc.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:41   #5
_The_Shadow
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The Glock 20 and 29 were designed as 10mm, the Glock 21 and Glock 30 were not designed as 460Roland...but in our country you are free to do what you wish.

For me I stay with the 10mm catridges and guns!
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:34   #6
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I've never been extremely excited about a round that a given gun wasn't designed for, especially running at that level.

I think the OP has underestimated the SD difference and it's importance in the field. I pretty much put my Ruger .45 Colt on the shelf when I got into the .41 mag. Handloading for either, with the goal of "thru and thru" on a deer @ 100 yds and similar performance on bear at closer ranges, a .45 has two ways to equal the results of a 210-220 gn .41-you either go toa higher sd bullet (close to 300 gns) or increase the velocity. Both raise recoil to get to the same place.

I see a similarity with the 10mm-.460 decision, and I think it is even more complicate. IF big IF for me, my only use would be against two-legged predators, I might say thereis a considerable advantage to the .460 BUT in the revolver rounds I mentioned I am comparing the same type of bullet A KSWC which is suitable for my purposes, I have to ask "How many .45 cal bullets are therethat are designed to perform optimally at the .460 velocities? I have seen too many cases of a bullet designed to work well at "X" velocity fail to perform any better, or as wel lin some cases, when jacked up to "Y" velocity.

And yet again, if I was using a cast bullet in the 10 and .460 How high can I go in bullet weight or velocity in the .460 to get the penetration results of the 10mm 200-210gn bullet?
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:12   #7
21Glock
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I have a 10mm too. A new Gen 4 20 I got back in June. I like it very much. Still doing load testing with it. But I also have a Gen 3 21SF, that I've owned for 4 yrs. that I just ordered a .460 kit for it. have it set up to shoot .45 Super and .45 ACP.
I like the ballistics and the capability of being able to shoot .460, .45 Super and .45 ACP in one gun as well. I've heard some good reports from folks who use this kit in their 21s and how they like the performance they're getting. I'm sold on it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:23   #8
copo9560
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The 460 will be more successful when there are factory guns chambered in it. Not sure if this will ever happen as the market for compensated guns is even smaller than the 10mm market. Until then it will be even more of a nitch than the 10mm is. While not great, there are a number of ammo offerings for the 10mm - few choices other than handloading for the 460 at this time.

I like the concept of a 460 gun also being able to fire 45 Super or ACP. Ironically, most folks don't realize their Glock 20/29's will fire 40SW just fine using the same concept.
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:32   #9
Yondering
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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
The .460 ... also uses a slide that weighs a bit less than the 10s, which means that the slide speed will be higher yet. It pretty well has to use the comp to be functional at all.
This is not a point to be ignored. The Glock doesn't have a good way to increase the unlocking delay, like the 1911 does, so slide mass and a muzzle brake are the solutions.

If I were to build a 460 Rowland (and I've considered it), it would be with the heaviest slide available (solid top Lone Wolf) and a 6.6" threaded barrel with a brake.
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Old 12-05-2012, 20:32   #10
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Are there any firearms currently factory chambered for .460 rowland?
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Old 12-05-2012, 22:04   #11
UnitBob
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.460 Roland is just another in a long line of wildcat cartridges. It's just the flavor of the month, so to speak. There are no .460 Rowland production guns, and none of the large ammo companies make .460 Rowland. If it weren't for the internet, you would have a hard time even finding ammo for it. .460 Rowland will most likely fade away like dozens of other wildcat cartridges before it. I don't see the .460 Rowland ever becoming mainstream. Not even Desert Eagle makes a .460.

10mm on the other hand is supported by many of the biggest gun and ammo manufacturers. 10mm has already been around for almost 30 years, and it will still be around decades from now.


Why not .50 Action Express?
Why not .50 GI?
Why not .475 Wildey Magnum?
Why not .475 AutoMag?
Why not .451 Detonics?
Why not .45 Winchester Magnum?
Why not .45 Super?
Why not .45 Mars?
Why not .45 Wildey Magum
Why not .44 AutoMag?
Why not .44 Magnum?
Why not .44 Wildey Magnum?
Why not .440 Corbon?
Why not .41 Wildey Magnum?
Why not .41 Magnum?
Why not .40 Super?
Why not 10mm Magnum?
Why not .357-45 GWM?

Last edited by UnitBob; 12-05-2012 at 22:07..
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Old 12-06-2012, 15:06   #12
21Glock
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I just got my .460 kit in today for my G21SF. Quick turnaround time, placed order last week.
I'll put it together this weekend and make up some .460 test ammo and do some chrony testing with it the following weekend and let all of you know how she does.
Looks like a well made barrel and comp. Well written instructions, too.
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Old 12-06-2012, 17:30   #13
picketpin
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Sounds good Glock21, I'll be watching for your posts. I need to order some 250 gr RNFP cast bullets and a Rowland Kit for my new to me G21. I think the things that may make the Rowland successful is that it can be adapted to an already successful platform that is not proprietary and ungainly like the automag, Lar Grizzly,Wildey type guns are. $319 is a pretty reasonable price to transform a G21 or G30 into a great hunting pistol and pretty decent gun for bear protection. I currently carry either a .45 Blackhawk or a .44 Superblackhawk into bear country... Think about less weight than a fully loaded Blackhawk and 13+ rounds of nearly equal power (My rugers are light and have significant recoil with 4-5/8" barrels and aluminum grip frames, I load 240 and 250 Keith swc's to 1200 fps). The Rowland conversions look like a much more attractive package than some of the earlier attempts at magnum level semi autos, at least to me..
james

Last edited by picketpin; 12-06-2012 at 17:34..
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Old 12-06-2012, 18:06   #14
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When I feel the need, to carry, an equivalent round with the 44 magnum, the 460 Rowland may be an alternative choice. Until then, the 10MM, covers all aspects, of my needs!
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Old 12-06-2012, 22:05   #15
Any Cal.
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The Rowland may be a lot of things, but it ISN'T anything like a .44 Mag. It does, however, hit the big-bore "general purpose" power level that many load hotter calibers to for a variety of duties... usually 240-250g@1200 fps. Typical of the loads some would use to hunt deer or black bear, but a far cry from the 300@1350+ that you can get from a full on .44 or .45 load without going over saami max.
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Old 12-07-2012, 00:31   #16
akmtnrunner
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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
The Rowland may be a lot of things, but it ISN'T anything like a .44 Mag. It does, however, hit the big-bore "general purpose" power level that many load hotter calibers to for a variety of duties... usually 240-250g@1200 fps. Typical of the loads some would use to hunt deer or black bear, but a far cry from the 300@1350+ that you can get from a full on .44 or .45 load without going over saami max.
I agree. However, it is a significant step up from the 10mm by throwing a noticeably heavier bullet and faster.


About the sectional density that another person pointed out, SD only describes the geometry of the bullet, so it does not tell the full story of penetration. I find it interesting to look at the product of SD and energy. Providing a strong bullet like hardcast lead, perhaps that may say more for penetration?

A look at Buffalo Bore's heavy-for-caliber hardcast offerings. I'm taking manufacturer's 4" barrel muzzle velocities for the revolver cartridges and 5" barrel muzzle velocities for the auto cartridges. Though BB's shortest barrel velocity for 44mag was 5.5" for 1401 fps, so I'm estimating a 4" bbl velocity of 1300.

10 mm: 220gr @ 1200 fps, 703 ft-lbs (E), 0.194 SD, ==> 137 SDxE
357 mag: 180gr @ 1375 fps, 756 ft-lbs, 0.200 SD, ==> 152 SDxE
460 Rowland: 255gr @ 1300 fps, 957 ft-lbs, 0.178 SD, ==> 170 SDxE
41 mag: 265gr @ 1310 fps, 1009 ft-lbs, 0.224 SD, ==> 226 SDxE
44 mag +P+: 340gr @ 1300* fps, 1276 ft-lbs, 0.262 SD, ==> 335 SDxE

Check out the 44 +P+! The 460 is definitely no match for that. It's fun to look at these numbers, even if it's a futile attempt. It will be interesting to hear hunting reports from some who are planning on using the 460 soon. But still, we have to consider the advantage that .451 cal 255gr pill going 100mph faster than a .401 cal 220gr pill. It's really tough to say that the 10mm has a meaningful penetration advantage, if any, when the 460 rowland would most certainly create more overall damage.


As far as the punishment that the 460 will have on the platform, I guess we will just have to see from folks' experience. Only time will tell. But my gut tells me that if the recoil is comparable to a 10mm because of the compensator, the slide's impact on the lower (and into the hand) is also comparable.

Or maybe this is all just my inner devil's advocate from just buying a 10mm.

Have a good one and thanks for all your opinions.

Last edited by akmtnrunner; 12-07-2012 at 00:33..
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:15   #17
ds7br
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Thanks..but no thanks. Im sticking with my 10's; I have XP's and Strikers to hunt with (7-08,308,7IHMSA,6BR) so have no need for a comped gun. I edc my 10mm and have absolutely no desire to carry a comped gun. If I really need the power I'll load the 308 with hot/heavy loads. BUT if you want something new to play with , GO FOR IT and enjoy.
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:33   #18
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For me the 10 exceeds all of my needs and meets almost all my wants just like the .41 mag does in a wheel gun(in a lesser way the 357 too). It may be just my imagination but seems like the 10 has been gaining popularity in last couple of years. I can see a case made for the Rowland, just not one I will buy into.

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:44   #19
21Glock
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I just got my comp for my .460 kit back from Nate Griffin at Fort Daniel Precision Rifles here locally. I have it mounted on there and painted black to match the Glock finish and ready to go with some Longshot behind 230gr. XTP bullets .460 test ammo. I'm be shooting it over my chrony this weekend. This looks like the ultimate Glock hunting pistol. Don't get me wrong, I love my Gen 4 20 as well, it's just nice to have another tool that throws heavier, faster slugs when the need arises.
Can't wait to test her out this weekend. I'll let you know what kind of fps I get.
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Old 12-13-2012, 23:13   #20
picketpin
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I love My 20 SF too, but if I have to shoo a Black bear off my Elk that Ive just shot (happened last year) or see Grizzly tracks circling the horses, I want a little more. I Hunt with a 45-70 in areas that have high concentrations of grizzly bear, but I want my side arm to be capable too. Sure there are more capable options but the Glock in 460 Rowland is light, controllable and has a 14 round capacity.. am I more likely to carry a 30 oz Glockl 21 or a 6 shot 73 oz Smith and Wesson 500?
james

Last edited by picketpin; 12-13-2012 at 23:16..
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