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Old 12-13-2012, 10:57   #51
Glock36shooter
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Originally Posted by Roering View Post
At one point when he was about to be stoned he slipped away from the crowd. Because we see Christ differently I highly doubt we will come to an agreement here.

Since I see Christ as the son of God I see him as able to diffuse/avoid a violent situation no matter what the circumstances.
Then why would he flee at all? Why not just snap his fingers and have them all overwhelmed with the spirit or some other form of magic?

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I however do not possess his abilities therefore I may find myself in a position where I must resort to violence to defend myself. Of course I would use violence as a last resort.
But you won't find an approval from Christ on this in the bible. I get why you carry. The same reason I do. But I don't believe in this stuff so I face no conflict. You have convinced yourself there is no conflict because it is what you want to believe. But you won't find jesus saying it's ok to use a weapon against another person for personal defense.

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Avoidance is always best, but for us mere humans not always possible. You think an Omniscient being wouldn't know this?
I would think you are assuming God agrees with your world view. That he likes the guns you like and hates the same people you do. Don't feel alone. It's a pretty common mind set with believers. Now... Yahweh... I bet you can absolutely find some scripture where he commands you to put folks to the sword for looking at you funny. But not Christ.

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As for my world view? I guess I would have to wonder why Jesus would instruct people to carry a sword.
If you want to get technical he didn't. He just said buy one.

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So you explain the passage of "get a sword" by just denying He said it? How about denying MT 5 while your at it? Perhaps in order to maintain a discussion on this I would first need to read your truncated account of Matthew.
We have to assume he said it for argument sake... though there is no proof he actually did. I think at this point Christ was having a bit of mental break down. He wasn't getting through to people the way he wanted and he knew he had pissed off the wrong folks and his time was running out. It's one of those crazy person "NO NO NO! YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT!" type of things. he knelt there and prayed in a puddle of his own sweat and poetically it says his sweat became drops of blood. So we see them using poetic license here so the "get a sword" passage may have been much like it. To defend one's spirit from satan perhaps. Just before he talks about satan wanting to sift them like wheat. It would make sense for him to instruct them to arm themselves against satan instead of other humans as that would be very contrary to his overall message to that point. Again, I think you are reading into this a message that agrees with your want to carry a gun. You need some kind of justification because you aren't trusting in God's will. I don't think any rational person can assert that Christ was pro-weapon or pro-violence... even in defense. It simply is outside of nearly everything else he preached.

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Uh Huh....which is why nobody ever heard of this Jesus person.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. Most everyone has heard of Zeus as well. Doesn't make the accounts of him anymore true. You seem to think that because it's your chosen delusion that it has more credence... it does not.

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It's not used for decoration.
Perhaps it was for show. Perhaps it was symbolic. Christ never gives justification for using the sword.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:04   #52
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http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html


Seems legit.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:14   #53
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I see... it becomes true because some internet guy agrees with you. Like I said, you can massage it until it agrees with your world view. That's what most Christians do anyway. But you still cannot find support from Christ in the bible for using a weapon against another human being. You can post links to all the internet bible guys you want. The justification simply doesn't exist except in your own mind.


LOL... such hypocrisy.

Last edited by Glock36shooter; 12-13-2012 at 11:15..
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:35   #54
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Why are atheists wary of Christians?

Read this thread for the evidence.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:38   #55
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Then why would he flee at all? Why not just snap his fingers and have them all overwhelmed with the spirit or some other form of magic?
He did not come to enslave us.


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
But you won't find an approval from Christ on this in the bible. I get why you carry. The same reason I do. But I don't believe in this stuff so I face no conflict. You have convinced yourself there is no conflict because it is what you want to believe. But you won't find jesus saying it's ok to use a weapon against another person for personal defense.
So why instruct to obtain a sword???


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I would think you are assuming God agrees with your world view. That he likes the guns you like and hates the same people you do. Don't feel alone. It's a pretty common mind set with believers. Now... Yahweh... I bet you can absolutely find some scripture where he commands you to put folks to the sword for looking at you funny. But not Christ.
It is you who assume too much about me. I know many of my views and actions are not Christ like. Not when it comes to this though.


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If you want to get technical he didn't. He just said buy one.
So you do agree that he said this? In your previous post you thought it was added in for another purpose.


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Perhaps it was for show. Perhaps it was symbolic. Christ never gives justification for using the sword.
Can you cite a passage where Christ instructs us not to defend ourselves from physical harm???
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Old 12-13-2012, 18:10   #56
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Originally Posted by Roering View Post
He did not come to enslave us.
LOL... ok what about disappearing in a puff of smoke. Or turning into a bat and flying away? He was not afraid to perform acts of wizardry in plain sight.


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So why instruct to obtain a sword???
For show? Symbolism? Metaphor? Do you believe he literally began to sweat blood?


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It is you who assume too much about me. I know many of my views and actions are not Christ like. Not when it comes to this though.
Because you have convinced yourself that God agrees with you in this case. Again, even if you can take this one WAY OUT of character statement to mean Jesus advocated the ownership and even at a stretch the carrying of a weapon... you'll find none foe the use of the weapon against another person.


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So you do agree that he said this? In your previous post you thought it was added in for another purpose.
I agree that for the sake of this discussion we must assume he did. I largely think Christ is a combination of a real person that was just a street preacher that got himself killed and a comic book character of the time that was turned into a religious icon. Who knows what, of the things attributed to him, he actually said.

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Can you cite a passage where Christ instructs us not to defend ourselves from physical harm???
I can't find a passage where he said not to eat clown meat... but I'm pretty sure he'd frown on it. That's a pretty weak stance. We're talking about what he did say. Funny how he makes a reference to getting a sword in statement about facing satan in the coming spreading of the gospel... but the second they set out to USE those swords he stopped them. Again, you'll find no reference to Jesus advocating the using of a weapon against anyone. Simply wasn't his style.
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Old 12-13-2012, 21:49   #57
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I see... it becomes true because some internet guy agrees with you. Like I said, you can massage it until it agrees with your world view. That's what most Christians do anyway. But you still cannot find support from Christ in the bible for using a weapon against another human being. You can post links to all the internet bible guys you want. The justification simply doesn't exist except in your own mind.


LOL... such hypocrisy.
Fools are always wrong and you are wrong.

In addition, you are an insignicant troll who displays a lot of bravado which shows nothing other than your emotional and mental insecurities. You are nothing.
Anyone who spends so much time and wastes so much bandwidth day after day has to have serious problems.
The funny thing is, you think you are accomplishing something. But in reality, you continue to make a fool of yourself and are failing.



Your efforts are reflected here...
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:24   #58
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Fools are always wrong and you are wrong.
No I'm not. Or you'd be able to easily point it out. You and others like you seem to think that because some other tool on the internet agrees with you and wrote an article that that somehow is concrete evidence. It is not. Swing and a miss stumpy.

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In addition, you are an insignicant troll who displays a lot of bravado which shows nothing other than your emotional and mental insecurities. You are nothing.
This coming from someone that has NEVER added a single thing to any debate in this forum. You drop off some asinine internet article as proof, pop back in with insults and some lame internet meme that conveys your thoughts (Since you are apparently not articulate enough to put it in your own words) and then claim yourself as the victor. I am here to debate religious issues. You seem only here to antagonize. So who really is the troll. But it's still funny... I musta got under your skin.


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Anyone who spends so much time and wastes so much bandwidth day after day has to have serious problems.
Another tired version of "Why do you guys even post here?" Yawn indeed.


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The funny thing is, you think you are accomplishing something. But in reality, you continue to make a fool of yourself and are failing.
Obviously I am accomplishing something. You're apparently upset. More than likely just frustrated at your own inability to hold your own in a debate with most of the non-believers here. You have shown yourself time and time again to be among the least educated and knowledgeable members here. That must be hard to deal with.


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Your efforts are reflected here...
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Yeah... that'll show me. How can anyone argue with intellect like that?

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Old 12-14-2012, 10:27   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
LOL... ok what about disappearing in a puff of smoke. Or turning into a bat and flying away? He was not afraid to perform acts of wizardry in plain sight.




For show? Symbolism? Metaphor? Do you believe he literally began to sweat blood?




Because you have convinced yourself that God agrees with you in this case. Again, even if you can take this one WAY OUT of character statement to mean Jesus advocated the ownership and even at a stretch the carrying of a weapon... you'll find none foe the use of the weapon against another person.




I agree that for the sake of this discussion we must assume he did. I largely think Christ is a combination of a real person that was just a street preacher that got himself killed and a comic book character of the time that was turned into a religious icon. Who knows what, of the things attributed to him, he actually said.



I can't find a passage where he said not to eat clown meat... but I'm pretty sure he'd frown on it. That's a pretty weak stance. We're talking about what he did say. Funny how he makes a reference to getting a sword in statement about facing satan in the coming spreading of the gospel... but the second they set out to USE those swords he stopped them. Again, you'll find no reference to Jesus advocating the using of a weapon against anyone. Simply wasn't his style.

Too many separate quotations in a post so I'm rolling them into one response.

1. No he wasn't, performing miracles has no connection with forcing people to do something.
2. No I don't think he wanted it for symbolism. Nice stretch.
3. Yes, sweating blood is possible. Never heard of hematidrosis?
4. So you couldn't find a passage then?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:15   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
1. No he wasn't, performing miracles has no connection with forcing people to do something.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Where did anyone say Christ was attempting to force people to do anything?

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2. No I don't think he wanted it for symbolism. Nice stretch.
Not stretching anything. You don't have a solid basis for Christ endorsing the carrying of a weapon. This is just a plain simple fact. And you most certainly have no basis for him endorsing the using of one on another person. This is contrary to Christs entire philosophy.

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3. Yes, sweating blood is possible. Never heard of hematidrosis?
Ah... so then you agree that Christ was overcome with terror here. That adds more credence to his hypocrisy born of fear. He was scared and therefore gave them instructions that ran counter to everything he had taught them up to that point.

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4. So you couldn't find a passage then?
Yes but you have rejected them with your own twisting of them. Let's look at Matthew 5 38-48 again. He mentions "Eye for and Eye". The old Mosaic law that says a crime must be repaid in equal kind. This is not just in reference to an insult but also theft, and even murder. Jesus mentions this and then countermands it. (Which also takes away from his statement that the law will remain until heaven and earth disappear). He is contradicting mosaic law here. Which includes more than just a slap to the face. Your view of what he is saying here is very two dimensional. So meeting violence with violence or fighting fire with fire is something he is most definitely speaking against here. You also have to understand the type of love Christ is implying here for one's enemies. It isn't Eros or Philia... but Agape. It is a self-sacrificial love that God commands man to have for one another. And it is a voluntary type of love... not one inspired by sexual partnering or friendship and family. So reject it all you like but Christ is instructing you to not respond in kind to violence as the old law says, and to have self-sacrificing voluntary love for one's enemy.

For him to later suggest to take up a sword and start hacking at those that would attack you is HIGHLY contradictory and hypocritical of him. And I think it's born of terror at the moments before his capture and shows very clearly that Christ was just a man.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:45   #61
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Where did anyone say Christ was attempting to force people to do anything?
Your first sentence in post #51.

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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Not stretching anything. You don't have a solid basis for Christ endorsing the carrying of a weapon. This is just a plain simple fact. And you most certainly have no basis for him endorsing the using of one on another person. This is contrary to Christs entire philosophy.
My basis is in his very words. The words you try to twist.

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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Ah... so then you agree that Christ was overcome with terror here. That adds more credence to his hypocrisy born of fear. He was scared and therefore gave them instructions that ran counter to everything he had taught them up to that point.
Not so, take a look at when he sweated blood.


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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Yes but you have rejected them with your own twisting of them. Let's look at Matthew 5 38-48 again. He mentions "Eye for and Eye". The old Mosaic law that says a crime must be repaid in equal kind. This is not just in reference to an insult but also theft, and even murder. Jesus mentions this and then countermands it. (Which also takes away from his statement that the law will remain until heaven and earth disappear). He is contradicting mosaic law here. Which includes more than just a slap to the face. Your view of what he is saying here is very two dimensional. So meeting violence with violence or fighting fire with fire is something he is most definitely speaking against here. You also have to understand the type of love Christ is implying here for one's enemies. It isn't Eros or Philia... but Agape. It is a self-sacrificial love that God commands man to have for one another. And it is a voluntary type of love... not one inspired by sexual partnering or friendship and family. So reject it all you like but Christ is instructing you to not respond in kind to violence as the old law says, and to have self-sacrificing voluntary love for one's enemy.
sure but what you fail to see here is that there is a difference between defending yourself from harm, and going to repay someone after being harmed.
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Old 12-14-2012, 13:15   #62
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Your first sentence in post #51.
Right to which I then said why not just a puff of smoke? How is that trying to enslave anyone?

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My basis is in his very words. The words you try to twist.
His words are unclear and you have interpreted them to suit your world view.

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Not so, take a look at when he sweated blood.
So what then? What do you think was causing his great suffering?

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sure but what you fail to see here is that there is a difference between defending yourself from harm, and going to repay someone after being harmed.
Sure... if you're defending yourself by fleeing or misdirection as Christ would have. But fighting fire with fire is an eye for an eye. Meeting violence with violence is not demonstrating Agape for your fellow man.

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