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Old 12-05-2012, 07:48   #1
JBnTX
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The Difference Between Right and Wrong?

Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..

Last edited by JBnTX; 12-05-2012 at 07:50..
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:59   #2
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I slightly modified it, but...

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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were imagined by men.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:05   #3
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I would have to say D. The assumption in B is that there must be a conflict, wherein conflict is not mentioned in the other options.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:25   #4
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Originally Posted by RedNine View Post
I slightly modified it, but...
C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were imagined by men.
Right and wrong develop and change. There most certainly is "such a thing", but they in consciousness.

This is why it is right to allow your faith to change as you grow. You learn for your self, the concepts that you once held because you were told they are true, become your own concepts through experience.

For example, I was raised being told that homosexuality is wrong. As I grew, I learned homosexuals are fine and good people. I changed my mind on the issue.


.
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Last edited by NMG26; 12-05-2012 at 08:28..
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:08   #5
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.
D for sure. Right and Wrong are concepts. They mean something different to different people and cultures. Not to mention they are relative to times in history. Take a look at your bible. When it was begin written it was ok for a grown man to take a 13 year old girl as his wife. She had little say in the matter and he could pretty much force himself on her once her Father sold her to him. This was considered good then. This was considered holy marriage ordained by God. Today we'd probably drag him and the father out and shoot them both because we would see that as horribly wrong.

Even if you take something like killing another human being. It's subjective. I think you get a room full of parents together and put a person in their midst that has been raping children... murder's gonna start lookin kinda good. Most definitely 100 years ago such a person wouldn't stand a chance in the town square.

Some people think homosexuality is wrong. But stable well adjusted people know it isn't. We know that it's perfectly natural even if not the norm and that these people can be good productive members of society. The ideal that they are wrong or wicked comes from a very barbaric culture and ideology.

I think there are certain things most people can agree are a negative thing. Take abortion for example. I don't think there are many people that think abortion is a great thing. I think we can all agree it is sad and unfortunate. However... is it evil? I don't think so. Is it wrong? well that depends on what you mean by wrong. If by wrong you mean it's a negative thing that is sad... sure. If by wrong you mean the person having it done is an immoral or wicked person... no... they're just people who have few options and their backs are against the wall. There are those that would want to enforce their ideals on others and take it away as an option when they have no better plan in place to solve to the problem abortion helps to prevent. No one disagrees it's a terrible thing. But for now it's necessary.

The attempt to enforce one's morality on another is something I truly consider evil.

Last edited by Glock36shooter; 12-05-2012 at 09:08..
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:01   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..
It depends on the meaning of "is", but I don't fancy rather overweight women like Monica Lewinsky so I would not have been tempted.

Actually, I think that A is closest but many things fall outside morality. For instance, it doesn't matter whether I decide to eat an apple or an orange unless there is only one left and my wife wants it for cooking.

Right and wrong are related to what is best for the survival of the society you belong to and, as such, are objective. One of their distinguishing features is that they interfer with the behaviour of the individual for the benefit of the society. (JBnTX and others take note!) So in most issues where there is a moral judgement to be made it is a simple either/or decision. Some involve a balance of lesser evils where it can be hard or impossible to decide which is the better choice. It is virtually impossible to have a codified system, that is one with written rules, where conflicts between different principles or rules do not conflict.

Bearing all that in mind, many actual moral systems develop without that understanding and add meaningless things on to make a distinction between their group and the others or things that apply to one era but not to others. So some, such as Sikhs always wearing turbans or Jews not eating pork have no or never had or no longer have, any survival value of continuing worth.

The consequence is that different long established groups have different moral codes. Within those codes, many subsets of morals will be identical across almost all groups and we can expect, but not guarantee, that they would have real survival benefits. We have to be wary of such decisions because some moral principles, such as forcing other people to follow your religion on pain of death, can seem to work very well for centuries but lead to a cultural cul de sac lacking long term benefit. The remaining set of morals which differ between different groups are very likely to be worthless, but here again we must take care because moral changes can take a long time to show their benefits, and even then it can be hard to decide on the cause. Thus, some morals peculiar to a small group could be of benefit to everyone but have not had time to show their benefit amongst the moral clutter or white noise.

Within this concept of morals there can be many grey areas because we just don't know enough about what is best for society's long term interest. In practice, since we can only work with what we think we know with a high probability, known grey areas will be rare.

Within JBnTX's concept of morals based on a particular tradition there will be many bad morals relative to my concept of morals and so there will be many conflicts with what is best for just his particular society. If we allow for the different codes of different groups and the reality of multicultural and multiracial countries, then grey areas and conflicts, often at a lethal level, will abound. For all those who have no problems with Islam until it directly impinges on them, take note here too.

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Old 12-05-2012, 10:44   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..
Well, A cannot be correct. A quick counterexample is killing. In cold blood, obviously wrong. In defense of self or another innocent, obviously right. Therefore you cannot make a moral judgement about killing absent a context.

B also cannot be correct, because people deciding for themselves in every situation allows people to decide that cold blooded murder is right at any point they choose to.

Likewise, C does the same as B.

D also cannot be chosen because a sensible view of morality would not be "entirely" different.

So.....I choose E.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:00   #8
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Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
There most certainly is "such a thing", but they in consciousness.
Right. It's the idea that exists.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:49   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..

Depends.

If your talking about living in our society and following the Law of the Land, then "A" is the obvious choice. "Right" and "Wrong", "Good" and "Evil" are codified categorized and agreed upon (somewhat) complete with exceptions and penalties.

If your talking about the "Unwritten Rules" of society then "B" must be the one. It's not "illegal" to do a lot of things, get drunk, sex before marriage, be gay, be rude, bang your adult step-daughter etc. Each person must decide what societal norms they are willing to abide by.

But the above only covers the human animal. And if thats all your concerned about then thats the end of it. But if you go beyond that and look at all life on earth then you realize its all just stuff we made up to be able to live in with each other. In the natural world , there is no such thing is "Right/Good" or "Evil/Wrong". There is only survival, survive long enough to pass on your genes. Anything else just is what it is, there is no theft, rape or murder. You live according to your place in the herd, pack, flock or group.

So over all "C" is correct.
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Old 12-05-2012, 13:19   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..
There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil. This is right and there is wrong. There is good. And there is evil. But, everything is not always easily classified. I.e., there are "grey" areas. Either or thinking is about as logical and useful as assuming that everything is "grey."
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:30   #11
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..
The answer is A.

When it comes to good or evil, right or wrong, there are no shades of gray. It is, or it isnít.
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:47   #12
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.

..
Please, explain why you care? Anybody who has ever read any of your posts should already know thaat you've already made up your mind long before posting this thread, and anybody who disagrees with you is a horrible, horrible person.

So what is the point of even trying to have a rational discussion when your horribly one-sided views don't allow you to see something from someone else's point of view?
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:45   #13
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Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil. This is right and there is wrong. There is good. And there is evil. But, everything is not always easily classified. I.e., there are "grey" areas. Either or thinking is about as logical and useful as assuming that everything is "grey."
Yep...

Killing your child for not making his bed -- evil.
Killing your child for cursing you -- good.

Genocide ordered by man -- evil.
Genocide ordered by God -- good.

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Old 12-05-2012, 18:43   #14
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But AG, jesus came back and got a do-over. Kind of like a 2nd edition that replaces the first.
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Old 12-05-2012, 18:50   #15
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Right and wrong are defined by society. Right is socially acceptable behavior. Wrong is socially unacceptable behavior. Child sacrifice, slavery, etc have been socially acceptable in the past but not today.
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:03   #16
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Please, explain why you care? Anybody who has ever read any of your posts should already know thaat you've already made up your mind long before posting this thread, and anybody who disagrees with you is a horrible, horrible person.

So what is the point of even trying to have a rational discussion when your horribly one-sided views don't allow you to see something from someone else's point of view?

I say the answer is A

What do you say it is?
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:08   #17
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Quote:
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I say the answer is A

What do you say it is?
Why??
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:29   #18
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Why??
Because he's part of the Sith.

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Old 12-05-2012, 19:35   #19
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I say the answer is A

What do you say it is?
Right and wrong have no clear set definition that will stand the test of time. Right and wrong are constantly changing. Think back to segregation, it was absolutely horrible for a black man to even think of looking at a white girl, let alone touching her, kissing her, or even marrying her. Does that mean it should still be wrong today?

Think back to when it was a requirement to sacrifice animals to appease our gods. Does that mean it should still be acceptable today?

Think back to when girls were married off at 13 or 14, and expected to give birth to a dozen or so kids, to make sure her husband would have an heir. And her husband would usually be in his 30s or 40s. Does that mean it should still be acceptable today?

Think back to when it was acceptable to take your chamber pots filled with human waste and toss them out your second story window, without bothering to look below to make sure it didn't land on anybody. Should that still be acceptable today?

Think back to when it was right for a white man to own black slaves. Should that still be right today?

Think back to when women didn't have the right to vote, and were thought of as less than men. Does that mean it should still be right today?

Think back to when dead, disease-ridden bodies were hurled over castle walls to infect the besieged inhabitants, so that they would die quicker. Does that mean it should still be right today?

The only reason you think there are clear cut lines between good and bad is because you only think about yourself, in the present, right now. You don't consider the past, the future, or anybody else except yourself. If you took even a minute to actually think for a change, you would realize that good and evil is not set in stone, it is defined by the presiding society of that time.
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:46   #20
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
I say the answer is A

What do you say it is?
You did not specified as an individual or as a society. There is a big difference between the two.
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Old 12-05-2012, 22:17   #21
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C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.
I change the 2nd sentence to read "These concepts are exaggerated by men in order to control other men. The exaggeration crosses the boundry between free will and social good. The exaggeration is more concerned with order rather than natural law.

The bans on hemp products contributed to economic order for hemp's competition. The ban had little to do with right and wrong.

Other examples abound. The real decline of America has more to do with a crumbling order than any mass violations of natural law.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:19   #22
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I say the answer is A
Then why don't you address some of the examples that have been given.

Let's start with an easy one. Is killing another human being good or evil?
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:06   #23
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Right is whatever I feel it should be at the moment. The people that happen to agree with me most are right, center and left atheist gun owners. I've been noticing more of them around.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:55   #24
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Right and wrong have no clear set definition that will stand the test of time. Right and wrong are constantly changing. Think back to segregation, it was absolutely horrible for a black man to even think of looking at a white girl, let alone touching her, kissing her, or even marrying her. Does that mean it should still be wrong today?

Think back to when it was a requirement to sacrifice animals to appease our gods. Does that mean it should still be acceptable today?

Think back to when girls were married off at 13 or 14, and expected to give birth to a dozen or so kids, to make sure her husband would have an heir. And her husband would usually be in his 30s or 40s. Does that mean it should still be acceptable today?

Think back to when it was acceptable to take your chamber pots filled with human waste and toss them out your second story window, without bothering to look below to make sure it didn't land on anybody. Should that still be acceptable today?

Think back to when it was right for a white man to own black slaves. Should that still be right today?

Think back to when women didn't have the right to vote, and were thought of as less than men. Does that mean it should still be right today?

Think back to when dead, disease-ridden bodies were hurled over castle walls to infect the besieged inhabitants, so that they would die quicker. Does that mean it should still be right today?

The only reason you think there are clear cut lines between good and bad is because you only think about yourself, in the present, right now. You don't consider the past, the future, or anybody else except yourself. If you took even a minute to actually think for a change, you would realize that good and evil is not set in stone, it is defined by the presiding society of that time.
This is a good post full of good examples, but you are failing to distinguish between what is generally accepted as good and what is good in a real sense. For instance:

1) The requirement to sacrifice animals destroyed part of the wealth of the society on which its future growth and succes depended but did no real good. Therefore it was always bad even when it wa widely approved of.

2) In the main period when girls were married off at 13 the life expectancy was generally about 40. They did not have much time to produce enough children and so that was generally a good thing because without it the group would have died out. With longer life spans, continued education and child bearing age extended to over 40 with too many people in the world, being married at 13 is a very bad thing. So this changes with enviromental conditions.

3) Owning slaves of any ethnicity is a bad thing for very complicated reasons but remember that the word slave came from the ethnic eastern europeans, the Slavs. They were raided for slaves long before the europeans knew of the existence of black people.

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Old 12-06-2012, 05:35   #25
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Yep...

Killing your child for not making his bed -- evil.
Killing your child for cursing you -- good.

Genocide ordered by man -- evil.
Genocide ordered by God -- good.

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There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven---
A time to give birth, and a time to die,
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
A time to kill...
Imagine that.
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