[Roering]

Atheists reportedly forcing school to scrap the play because of it's religious undertones. Thicker skin is needed.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes...rown-show.html

[OctoberRust]

This isn't an issue of Atheism. It's a political issue of keeping the government out of schools. That includes funding.

Once upon a time the republican party advocated this. As you see though, in a democracy, advocating austerity can be rather career ending, even if it is the right thing to do.


Democracy - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Sarge1400]

"The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip."

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see what the problem was either.

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Sarge1400

"The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip."

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see what the problem was either.

Here's the problem. I don't know how old you are but I'm in my mid 30's... when I was in school a field trip was a treat because you got to leave school and go somewhere else. No one would turn down a field trip. So this is taking a child's enthusiasm about venturing past the school grounds and diverting them to a religious venue. NOW... if they simply watched Charlie Brown and came back... maybe there's no problem. But how can you be sure they aren't going to use it as a chance to preach to these children? There is a subtle bribery that can happen between churches and children. Give them a little candy, teach them a little scripture. It's creating and false positive association with religion. It's subtle brain washing. Not much different than a kid toucher luring a child into his van with candy and toys. The idea is the same. Get them in the door... then have our way with them. There have been schools run by mostly Christian administrators that punish children that opt out of religious activities. There was a school in South Carolina I think that had a local Christian Rapper named B-Shock put on a show and they had a sermon and a coming to Jesus gathering afterward... THIS IS IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL mind you. One child opted out because he was an Atheist. So he was sent to the library to copy bible verses instead. The ACLU is currently blowing them up over this but the admins are largely unapologetic.

Churches need to stay the hell away from public schools period. They have no place being involved with them on any level. If they want to put on a play that's open to whoever... that's cool... but they have no business making it a school function.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

Here's the problem. I don't know how old you are but I'm in my mid 30's... when I was in school a field trip was a treat because you got to leave school and go somewhere else. No one would turn down a field trip. So this is taking a child's enthusiasm about venturing past the school grounds and diverting them to a religious venue. NOW... if they simply watched Charlie Brown and came back... maybe there's no problem. But how can you be sure they aren't going to use it as a chance to preach to these children? There is a subtle bribery that can happen between churches and children. Give them a little candy, teach them a little scripture. It's creating and false positive association with religion. It's subtle brain washing. Not much different than a kid toucher luring a child into his van with candy and toys. The idea is the same. Get them in the door... then have our way with them. There have been schools run by mostly Christian administrators that punish children that opt out of religious activities. There was a school in South Carolina I think that had a local Christian Rapper named B-Shock put on a show and they had a sermon and a coming to Jesus gathering afterward... THIS IS IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL mind you. One child opted out because he was an Atheist. So he was sent to the library to copy bible verses instead. The ACLU is currently blowing them up over this but the admins are largely unapologetic.

Churches need to stay the hell away from public schools period. They have no place being involved with them on any level. If they want to put on a play that's open to whoever... that's cool... but they have no business making it a school function.

Would you feel the same way if the schools played the Charlie Brown Christmas special in the classroom?

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Roering

Would you feel the same way if the schools played the Charlie Brown Christmas special in the classroom?

As long as it wasn't a production put on by a church in the school I'd be fine with it. If it were a school play put on by the school... that's fine. Christmas is mostly secular anyway. It's about Santa and rain deer and elves and snowmen. Especially when kids are concerned. As long as a play isn't religiously preachy and is strictly a school function. I wouldn't have a problem with that. The second a church gets involved it's a violation and must not be permitted. If the church wants to have a program and have all the believer families bring their kids... that's their business. But churches have no place at all around schools.

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Roering

Would you feel the same way if the schools played the Charlie Brown Christmas special in the classroom?

I like the Charlie Brown Christmas Special even though the religious overtones in it are obvious. But the school field trip to a church was crossing the line. There is a difference between being tolerant of differing views and being exposed to indoctrination.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Geko45

I like the Charlie Brown Christmas Special even though the religious overtones in it are obvious. But the school field trip to a church was crossing the line. There is a difference between being tolerant of differing views and being exposed indoctrination.

School field trip was not mandatory.

[Gunhaver]

How strong can a cartoon's religious overtones be with a couple of lesbians in it?

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Roering

School field trip was not mandatory.

It kinda still is though. What kid is going to pass up the chance to go on a field trip. Getting in a child molesters car isn't mandatory either... but kids sometimes do it when they're lured with candy and toys. Churches have no place being involved with a school period. Why doesn't the church just put up a sign that says "Free Christmas Play" and then let whoever wants to come come? They wanna get at those kids... get them in the church and expose them to religion on some level.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

It kinda still is though. What kid is going to pass up the chance to go on a field trip.

The kind who has parents that suffer from Christianophobia I suppose. Or those who might be JW's/SDA's or just plain hate Christmas.

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

Getting in a child molesters car isn't mandatory either... but kids sometimes do it when they're lured with candy and toys. Churches have no place being involved with a school period. Why doesn't the church just put up a sign that says "Free Christmas Play" and then let whoever wants to come come? They wanna get at those kids... get them in the church and expose them to religion on some level.

Oh come now, it is the parents that give permission for this. Remember those permission slips you needed signed to go on the field trips?

"Get at those kids"?

You just might be suffering from Christianophobia.

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Roering

The kind who has parents that suffer from Christianophobia I suppose. Or those who might be JW's/SDA's or just plain hate Christmas.



Oh come now, it is the parents that give permission for this. Remember those permission slips you needed signed to go on the field trips?

"Get at those kids"?

You just might be suffering from Christianophobia.

Oh good we've learned a new word. So we single out the kids that can't go? Make them feel like outcasts? Paint a giant red target on their back for bullies? Nice. How about churches just stay the hell away from schools as is appropriate.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

Oh good we've learned a new word.

I'm still trying it out. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue though.

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

So we single out the kids that can't go? Make them feel like outcasts? Paint a giant red target on their back for bullies?

You've got to be kidding right? This never happened to me when I missed a field trip in school. Did it happen to you???

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

Nice. How about churches just stay the hell away from schools as is appropriate.

Do you know who the first organization was to provide free public education in this country? I'll give you a hint...It was not the Government nor an atheist group.

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Roering

I'm still trying it out. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue though.

Yeah it needs some tweaking. How about Ignoramophobia?That's hot!

You've got to be kidding right? This never happened to me when I missed a field trip in school. Did it happen to you???

How many field trips did you miss as a result of not believing in Jesus? Come now... you are not stupid like many of your buddies here. You're one of the smart ones. You know how cruel and intolerant children can be. We're not talking about missing a trip because you were sick. We're talking about missing one because you believe differently. Man's history has shown us this is enough to get you killed in certain circles. Can you not imagine it might make a child a great target for bullying?

Do you know who the first organization was to provide free public education in this country? I'll give you a hint...It was not the Government nor an atheist group.

Good for them. But we aren't talking about then. We're talking about now. Don't change the subject.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

How many field trips did you miss as a result of not believing in Jesus? Come now... you are not stupid like many of your buddies here. You're one of the smart ones. You know how cruel and intolerant children can be. We're not talking about missing a trip because you were sick. We're talking about missing one because you believe differently. Man's history has shown us this is enough to get you killed in certain circles. Can you not imagine it might make a child a great target for bullying?

Would they have to really give that as reason for not attending?

How about, "I was sick" or "my parents didn't want me to go" or "I had to work on the "Heather has two Mommies book report. How about no reason at all?

[Geko45]

Originally Posted by Roering

Would they have to really give that as reason for not attending?

How about, "I was sick" or "my parents didn't want me to go" or "I had to work on the "Heather has two Mommies book report. How about no reason at all?

So your solution for the children that didn't want to go (but wanted to avoid the peer pressure) is for them to lie?

[TK-421]

If the church wants to put on the play, fine, I have no problems with that. If parents want to take their kids to the church to see the play, fine, I have no problem with that. But don't take kids there as a field trip from school. Churches and schools need to remain separate. When my kids are at school, I want them to be educated by the school, not preached at by a minister/pastor/priest/whatever. Field trips need to educational and relevant to what they're learning in the classroom, to reinforce the subject matter in an environment other than the school that the kids might find enjoyable. Or, if the teacher thinks the kids need it, and they have the time, then a field trip can also be entirely fun and have no educational purpose, as long as the children are enjoying themselves and having a fun break from school.

Churches and schools need to remain completely separate.

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Roering

Would they have to really give that as reason for not attending?

How about, "I was sick" or "my parents didn't want me to go" or "I had to work on the "Heather has two Mommies book report. How about no reason at all?

Do you have kids? Kids say everything. Even stuff that will get them beat up. It's just what they do.

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Churches and schools need to remain completely separate.

Why doesn't that seem to include such propaganda as "Heather has two mommies?"

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Why doesn't that seem to include such propaganda as "Heather has two mommies?"

Because I don't see homosexuals trying to parade themselves around as people who know better than everybody else, and I don't see them trying to force their views on anybody else? And I don't see them standing on street corners holding up signs saying religious people are horrible, horrible people for believing in things written in some random book?

I actually see them for what they are, human beings, and I believe they should be allowed to live their life how they want. Just like I let you live your life how you want. You don't see me saying you're horrible, horrible person who should never, ever be happy just because you believe in the words written in your bible. But I see religious people like you saying homosexuals should never, ever be happy, or respected, because you don't like the choices they made.

Stop and look at them for what they are, humans, and let them live their life how they want, just like how they let you live your life how you want, no matter how much you persecute them. Learn to love thy neighbor, just like your book says.

If it really is a sin to be gay, if it really is offensive to god to be gay, why doesn't he smite them? Hmm? If god doesn't like it as much as you claim he does, why doesn't he do something about it?

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Why doesn't that seem to include such propaganda as "Heather has two mommies?"

Because lesbianism is a fact of life. It's real. It happens. There are children with two mommies. An educated well adjusted society understands these things and are not afraid of acknowledging it. School prepares children for the real world.

[Kentak]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Why doesn't that seem to include such propaganda as "Heather has two mommies?"

You raise an interesting question. This comes under the category of "controversial subjects." Deciding how schools should handle them is not always easy.

The quick answer to your question is that teaching children at an appropriate age that "nontraditional" families exist is teaching a reality of life--and by itself is religion neutral. As such, that doesn't cross a church/state barrier. Now, I haven't read "Heather Has Two Mommies," so I don't know how deeply it goes into acceptance issues.

The problem comes from the discussion and questions that inevitably arise following such a story. Certainly, some children may recount religious teachings that indicate same-sex coupling is wrong. If the school's response is to indicate that same-sex coupling is not wrong, and should be accepted--rather than merely presenting it as something that exists--it is teaching a value judgement rather than a fact. That ground is more shaky.

To me, this is different than something like the evolution issue. Done correctly, students will have been taught the foundations of scientific enquiry, the scientific method, and the importance of arriving at conclusions based on evidence. Students who raise religious objections to evolution, can, and should be answered with the values neutral explanation of what the science shows.

[Kentak]

Let me try to further clarify what I'm getting at in that previous post.

Abortion is one of those "controversial" issues that require careful handling by schools.

In civics/social studies/history classes, it's perfectly appropriate to teach about the issue as one of the most contentious hot-button issues in recent American history. It's perfectly appropriate to discuss the various viewpoints, state laws, Roe v. Wade, constitutional debate, etc. Pro-choice groups, Right-to-Life groups. All that.

What is not appropriate, is for a (public) school to teach abortion is morally wrong or abortion is morally acceptable. It's okay for an individual teacher to present their own viewpoint as long as they make clear it is a personal belief, and as long as they allow other viewpoints and don't favor one or the other.

Likewise, homosexuality and gay rights issues are legitimate topics in biology, history, and civics classes. The *moral* acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexual acts, same-sex marriage, etc., is entering that shaky ground of values judgements for which schools should be neutral.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Gunhaver

How strong can a cartoon's religious overtones be with a couple of lesbians in it?

One was lesbian, the other was bi.

[Roering]

Originally Posted by Geko45

So your solution for the children that didn't want to go (but wanted to avoid the peer pressure) is for them to lie?

Gecko,

Please read the last sentence in my post. A possibility was to say nothing but since we are talking about Godless heathans I doubt they would have a problem with it.