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Old 12-30-2012, 21:15   #41
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
Correct, they were not sold in the same way.
You're completely wrong. They were sold exactly the same way. It is true that slaves could, with the permission of their owners, earn money and even buy their freedom in some cases, but that was neither required nor even the norm throughout the majority of Roman history.
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American slave markets did not have any notion of the debt owed by the slave. There was no limit of any kind associated with the slave as related by the debt they owed. They could never pay off their debt because it wasn't based on any debt obligation.
It is true that some slaves became enslaved as a result of debts, but that was hardly the only route to slavery. Read Caesar's The Gallic Wars, he enslaved entire towns and tribes, the Veneti for example.
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Old 12-30-2012, 21:39   #42
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You're completely wrong. They were sold exactly the same way. It is true that slaves could, with the permission of their owners, earn money and even buy their freedom in some cases, but that was neither required nor even the norm throughout the majority of Roman history.
It is true that some slaves became enslaved as a result of debts, but that was hardly the only route to slavery. Read Caesar's The Gallic Wars, he enslaved entire towns and tribes, the Veneti for example.
The way this thread was going, I thought we were including more than just Rome in "the ancient world."
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Old 12-30-2012, 21:44   #43
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The way this thread was going, I thought we were including more than just Rome in "the ancient world."
How does that change anything? You claim slavery in the ancient world was different than slavery in the United States. You claimed that ancient slaves were bondservants, not property. This was incorrect. I provided the example of Roman slaves captured in war.

Even if we take the "ancient world" as more expansive than just Rome, the fact remains that there were slaves that you describe as chattel in Rome, which was part of the ancient world, which renders your initial proposition false.
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Old 12-30-2012, 22:26   #44
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inertia186 is flopping like a fish on the dock.
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Old 12-30-2012, 22:56   #45
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
Well, the original Greek might be better translated today as bondservant. A bondservant can be described as a slave, but is still very different from chattel slave.

Usually, when we hear "slavery," we imagine chattel slavery.

Bondservants have a debt obligation to their masters. Often, after the debt is paid off, the servant elects to stay with their master.

Under chattel slavery, there is no debt. Slaves are just owned as property like mules and such.
If this is true, why was Onesimus in prison?
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Old 12-30-2012, 23:19   #46
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How does that change anything? You claim slavery in the ancient world was different than slavery in the United States. You claimed that ancient slaves were bondservants, not property. This was incorrect. I provided the example of Roman slaves captured in war.

Even if we take the "ancient world" as more expansive than just Rome, the fact remains that there were slaves that you describe as chattel in Rome, which was part of the ancient world, which renders your initial proposition false.
Ok, TIL that all ancient slavery was chattel slavery.
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Old 12-30-2012, 23:31   #47
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Ok, TIL that all ancient slavery was chattel slavery.
I didn't say that, did I? Hopefully, you have learned that chattel slavery did exist in the ancient world, if you were not already aware of that fact. If you have evidence for one type of slavery being rejected by either Biblical command or Christian practice, please do share it. As far as I know, no one knows the nature of Onesimus' slavery and he was perhaps the most famous slave of Christian accounts.
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Old 12-31-2012, 00:32   #48
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I didn't say that, did I? Hopefully, you have learned that chattel slavery did exist in the ancient world, if you were not already aware of that fact. If you have evidence for one type of slavery being rejected by either Biblical command or Christian practice, please do share it. As far as I know, no one knows the nature of Onesimus' slavery and he was perhaps the most famous slave of Christian accounts.
So you're saying there might have been bondservants (slavery by way of economic circumstances) as well as chattel slaves (slavery by way of military conquest) in the ancient world?
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:10   #49
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So you're saying there might have been bondservants (slavery by way of economic circumstances) as well as chattel slaves (slavery by way of military conquest) in the ancient world?
No, I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I said the exact opposite of that:
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It is true that some slaves became enslaved as a result of debts, but that was hardly the only route to slavery. Read Caesar's The Gallic Wars, he enslaved entire towns and tribes, the Veneti for example.
On the other hand, you did claim that there weren't slave markets in the ancient world comparable to those in America:
Quote:
Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
Correct, they were not sold in the same way.

American slave markets did not have any notion of the debt owed by the slave. There was no limit of any kind associated with the slave as related by the debt they owed. They could never pay off their debt because it wasn't based on any debt obligation.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:20   #50
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No, I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I said the exact opposite of that:

On the other hand, you did claim that there weren't slave markets in the ancient world comparable to those in America:
I said that slaves weren't bought and sold in the same way because I contend that there were at least two kinds of slavery, as opposed to the more modern historical occurrence.

I find it baffling that there were no bondservants in any ancient context. Apparently I just made them up out of thin air.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:21   #51
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I said that slaves weren't bought and sold in the same way because I contend that there were at least two kinds of slavery, as opposed to the more modern historical occurrence.
Actually you initially claimed that there was only one kind, and repeated that claim when I asked you to clarify:


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Are you claiming that slaves weren't sold in the ancient world, including in Rome and Palestine, in the same way they were in the American slave markets of the 17th-19th centuries?
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
Correct, they were not sold in the same way.

American slave markets did not have any notion of the debt owed by the slave. There was no limit of any kind associated with the slave as related by the debt they owed. They could never pay off their debt because it wasn't based on any debt obligation.
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I find it baffling that there were no bondservants in any ancient context. Apparently I just made them up out of thin air.
I find it more baffling that you're making this claim when no one has denied the existence of debt slavery in the ancient world.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:33   #52
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Then maybe you could help me understand how to phrase this in the exact opposite:

Quote:
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So you're saying there might have been bondservants (slavery by way of economic circumstances) as well as chattel slaves (slavery by way of military conquest) in the ancient world?
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:43   #53
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Then maybe you could help me understand how to phrase this in the exact opposite:
I misread that post originally, and apologize for that. Nevertheless the fact remains that you first claimed one sort of slavery didn't exist and still have provided no reason to conclude that the same sort of slavery practiced in recent times was not also the slavery described in the Bible.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:48   #54
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I misread that post originally, and apologize for that. Nevertheless the fact remains that you first claimed one sort of slavery didn't exist and still have provided no reason to conclude that the same sort of slavery practiced in recent times was not also the slavery described in the Bible.
I said slaves were not bought and sold in the same way.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:40   #55
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I said slaves were not bought and sold in the same way.
Yes, you did. That was incorrect. The fact that bondservants or debt slaves existed does not remove the existence of either slave markets or what you describe as chattel slavery.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:19   #56
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Yes, you did. That was incorrect. The fact that bondservants or debt slaves existed does not remove the existence of either slave markets or what you describe as chattel slavery.
You're going to have to explain to me then, how bondservants and chattel slaves were sold in the same way.

I would maintain that they were not sold in the same way. For example, I don't think a bondservant would be traded for a chattel slave or via versa.

I don't think the two systems were in any way "compatible" with one another.

It seems like bondservants were a lot more formal a system. Chattel was pure racial/nationalistic oppression akin to genocide while debt slaves were simply an economic solution, albeit a distasteful one to our "modern standards."
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:07   #57
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All this back-and-forth about bondservants vs. chattel slaves is just so much misdirection.

I post #32, inertia186 implies that the slavery described in the OT is something other than chattel slavery. All the references to "slavery in the ancient world” and “there were no bondservants in any ancient context” are smoke and mirrors to distract us from the Biblical commentary mandating the treatment of slaves.

I ask again, if the slavery described in the OT is something other than chattel slavery, how do you explain:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:49   #58
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While it's true that even in the New Testament, slavery was not condemned, the New Testament requires that masters treat their slaves with respect.

More importantly, the New Testament emphasizes spiritual equality of slave and free in the church (Gal. 2:28; 1 Cor. 12:13; Col 3:11), and slaves are encouraged to seek their freedom (1 Cor. 7:21-24).

In the late 1700s, when slavery came under attack, these teachings helped to undermine the institution of slavery.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:05   #59
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So, bottom line, chattel slavery was approved by the writers of the OT.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:32   #60
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So, bottom line, chattel slavery was approved by the writers of the OT.

Thanks for clearing that up.
There was a higher standard of living requirement imposed by the OT on Hebrews who had slaves, as compared to the other occupiers at the time.
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