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Old 12-31-2012, 01:21   #51
Animal Mother
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
I said that slaves weren't bought and sold in the same way because I contend that there were at least two kinds of slavery, as opposed to the more modern historical occurrence.
Actually you initially claimed that there was only one kind, and repeated that claim when I asked you to clarify:


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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Are you claiming that slaves weren't sold in the ancient world, including in Rome and Palestine, in the same way they were in the American slave markets of the 17th-19th centuries?
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
Correct, they were not sold in the same way.

American slave markets did not have any notion of the debt owed by the slave. There was no limit of any kind associated with the slave as related by the debt they owed. They could never pay off their debt because it wasn't based on any debt obligation.
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I find it baffling that there were no bondservants in any ancient context. Apparently I just made them up out of thin air.
I find it more baffling that you're making this claim when no one has denied the existence of debt slavery in the ancient world.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:33   #52
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Then maybe you could help me understand how to phrase this in the exact opposite:

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So you're saying there might have been bondservants (slavery by way of economic circumstances) as well as chattel slaves (slavery by way of military conquest) in the ancient world?
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:43   #53
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Then maybe you could help me understand how to phrase this in the exact opposite:
I misread that post originally, and apologize for that. Nevertheless the fact remains that you first claimed one sort of slavery didn't exist and still have provided no reason to conclude that the same sort of slavery practiced in recent times was not also the slavery described in the Bible.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:48   #54
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I misread that post originally, and apologize for that. Nevertheless the fact remains that you first claimed one sort of slavery didn't exist and still have provided no reason to conclude that the same sort of slavery practiced in recent times was not also the slavery described in the Bible.
I said slaves were not bought and sold in the same way.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:40   #55
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I said slaves were not bought and sold in the same way.
Yes, you did. That was incorrect. The fact that bondservants or debt slaves existed does not remove the existence of either slave markets or what you describe as chattel slavery.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:19   #56
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Yes, you did. That was incorrect. The fact that bondservants or debt slaves existed does not remove the existence of either slave markets or what you describe as chattel slavery.
You're going to have to explain to me then, how bondservants and chattel slaves were sold in the same way.

I would maintain that they were not sold in the same way. For example, I don't think a bondservant would be traded for a chattel slave or via versa.

I don't think the two systems were in any way "compatible" with one another.

It seems like bondservants were a lot more formal a system. Chattel was pure racial/nationalistic oppression akin to genocide while debt slaves were simply an economic solution, albeit a distasteful one to our "modern standards."
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:07   #57
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All this back-and-forth about bondservants vs. chattel slaves is just so much misdirection.

I post #32, inertia186 implies that the slavery described in the OT is something other than chattel slavery. All the references to "slavery in the ancient world” and “there were no bondservants in any ancient context” are smoke and mirrors to distract us from the Biblical commentary mandating the treatment of slaves.

I ask again, if the slavery described in the OT is something other than chattel slavery, how do you explain:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:49   #58
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While it's true that even in the New Testament, slavery was not condemned, the New Testament requires that masters treat their slaves with respect.

More importantly, the New Testament emphasizes spiritual equality of slave and free in the church (Gal. 2:28; 1 Cor. 12:13; Col 3:11), and slaves are encouraged to seek their freedom (1 Cor. 7:21-24).

In the late 1700s, when slavery came under attack, these teachings helped to undermine the institution of slavery.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:05   #59
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So, bottom line, chattel slavery was approved by the writers of the OT.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:32   #60
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Originally Posted by Japle View Post
So, bottom line, chattel slavery was approved by the writers of the OT.

Thanks for clearing that up.
There was a higher standard of living requirement imposed by the OT on Hebrews who had slaves, as compared to the other occupiers at the time.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:06   #61
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Posted by inertia186:
There was a higher standard of living requirement imposed by the OT on Hebrews who had slaves, as compared to the other occupiers at the time.
So? It's still slavery. It's still people buying and selling and killing other people, splitting families, etc.

Your comment is like saying, "The Hebrews had a higher standard of rape and murder".
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:39   #62
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So? It's still slavery. It's still people buying and selling and killing other people, splitting families, etc.

Your comment is like saying, "The Hebrews had a higher standard of rape and murder".
I suppose it is. Slavery is as horrendous as those other examples. All of the above is the result of one nation occupying another.

So I suppose the Hebrews should have opted out of taking any land as a possession of their own. Because you really can't take the land without doing *something* with the people who are living there already.

It's just so objectionable, right? I mean, we know better now. The Hebrews were had no right to military conquest. Nobody did. No one ever does. They should have all been nice to one a other and stayed on their own land.

Their choices were limited to slaughtering their neighbors (which they often did), enslaving them (they also did this), or leaving them alone.

Leaving them alone would ultimately backfire. The culture of the people they left alone would integrate together with theirs and they would no longer be a distinct nation.

In the ancient context, mixing cultures meant that one culture would die.

The Hebrews should have let themselves just die. Then they would have been a good example for us today.

But they didn't do that. They did what other nations did. They used military conquest to try to expand their border. Oh how despicable.
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Old 12-31-2012, 13:41   #63
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Okay, now that we’ve agreed that God’s chosen people enslaved others, and that, in Exodus, God established his standards for the treatment of slaves, how do we reconcile God’s approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?

Keep in mind that Exodus 22 starts with, “Then the LORD said to Moses”, and God lays down his laws (including the treatment of slaves) right through Exodus 31. That's your God talking. Better pay attention.
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Old 12-31-2012, 14:08   #64
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... how do we reconcile God’s approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?
It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.
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Old 12-31-2012, 14:10   #65
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It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.


Well, as long as everyone else does it, it's not wrong.

Never knew God was a moral relativist.

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Old 12-31-2012, 14:15   #66
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Well, as long as everyone else does it, it's not wrong.

Never knew God was a moral relativist.

Randy
I think it was wrong *and* everyone did it. God makes concessions for things that are wrong. Concessions don't suddenly make immoral things moral. It just means that, given the mess you're in, here's what you do.
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:44   #67
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I believe, that there is no proof that proves or disproves the existence (or prior existence) of a deity.

I believe that atheism and theism are religious beliefs.
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:12   #68
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I believe, that there is no proof that proves or disproves the existence (or prior existence) of a deity.

I believe that atheism and theism are religious beliefs.
Yeah, we know.
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:31   #69
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Yeah, we know.
Glad I am being clear.

Are you bothered when people don't believe the same way you do, or more likely, the way you wish they would?

Enhance your calm, get over it.
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Old 12-31-2012, 19:19   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japle:
... how do we reconcile God’s approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?
Quote:
Response by inertia186:
It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.
Second of all, yes, I do approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion.
First of all, what’s that got to do with approving of slavery?

Your god not only allowed slavery to exist, he approved of it and set rules for slave owners. Trying to divert the conversation by bringing up war doesn’t change that.
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Old 12-31-2012, 19:39   #71
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion?
Do you believe Psalms 23?
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Old 12-31-2012, 19:46   #72
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I thought I'd share this poem that I heard many years ago. It was written during WW2, on the wall of a cellar, by a Jewish prisoner in the Cologne concentration camp.

"I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love,
even when there's no one there.
And I believe in God,
even when he is silent.

I believe through any trial,
there is always a way
But sometimes in this suffering
and hopeless despair
My heart cries for shelter,
to know someone's there
But a voice rises within me, saying hold on
my child, I'll give you strength,
I'll give you hope. Just stay a little while.

I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love
even when there's no one there
But I believe in God
even when he is silent
I believe through any trial
there is always a way.

May there someday be sunshine
May there someday be happiness
May there someday be love
May there someday be peace...."

- Unknown
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Last edited by Line Rider; 12-31-2012 at 19:48..
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Old 12-31-2012, 19:55   #73
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
I suppose it is. Slavery is as horrendous as those other examples. All of the above is the result of one nation occupying another.

So I suppose the Hebrews should have opted out of taking any land as a possession of their own. Because you really can't take the land without doing *something* with the people who are living there already.

It's just so objectionable, right? I mean, we know better now. The Hebrews were had no right to military conquest. Nobody did. No one ever does. They should have all been nice to one a other and stayed on their own land.

Their choices were limited to slaughtering their neighbors (which they often did), enslaving them (they also did this), or leaving them alone.

.
Apparently you are missing the point. The unbelievers here are trying to make God responsible for condoning slavery because He gave Israel rules to deal with slaves.

Slavery was not restricted to.Israel. It was universally practiced.

God was working within the framework of human culture at the time. Paul speaks about the Law of Moses as being a temporary bridge.

Galatians 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:34   #74
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You're going to have to explain to me then, how bondservants and chattel slaves were sold in the same way.
That wasn't the claim you made. You claimed that slavery, and the attendant slave markets, of the ancient world were different than the more recent instances of slavery.
Quote:
I would maintain that they were not sold in the same way. For example, I don't think a bondservant would be traded for a chattel slave or via versa.
Even if true, how is this at all important to the topic we're discussing?
Quote:
I don't think the two systems were in any way "compatible" with one another.
Clearly they were as they managed to coexist for centuries, if not millenia.
Quote:
It seems like bondservants were a lot more formal a system. Chattel was pure racial/nationalistic oppression akin to genocide while debt slaves were simply an economic solution, albeit a distasteful one to our "modern standards."
Fascinating, but I have to ask again, how does this factor into the topic under discussion? Which is, if you've forgotten, Vic's contention that Christianity doesn't allow for people being treated like property.
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:38   #75
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God was working within the framework of human culture at the time.
Why? Why couldn't God just tell His people the slavery was wrong and that they should knock it off? Why was the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe unable to come up with a solution better than slavery and genocide to provide for His people?
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