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Old 01-02-2013, 16:19   #101
inertia186
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Originally Posted by Japle View Post
Yes. There are, for instance, no circumstances under which I would make concessions for slavery.
Then, I trust, you would not have voted to ratify the US Constitution in 1788, either. At least you can bite the bullet and be consistent. Good for you.
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Old 01-02-2013, 16:22   #102
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Then, I trust, you would not have voted to ratify the US Constitution in 1788, either. At least you can bite the bullet and be consistent. Good for you.
Not only am I consistent, I’m morally superior to any being, mythical or not, that condones slavery.
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Old 01-03-2013, 00:53   #103
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Inerrancy is not at issue.
Of course it is.
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Merely, is it valid to throw out an entire document that includes instructions that modern eyes view as objectionable?
Yes. That's why we've modified the Constitution as our understanding of morality and human rights have changed.
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Or does that document have some concessions that are consistent for the time and place they were written?
You're confusing a document written by mortal men which can be modified by other mortal men with a document supposedly written by the omnipotent, omniscient author of all creation which is held to be inerrant.
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Old 01-03-2013, 00:56   #104
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*concession of slavery
Why does an omniscient, omnipotent God have to concede anything? If He was providing a universal, unchanging moral guide why didn't He just tell His followers to knock off the owning of human beings because it was wrong?
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Old 01-03-2013, 00:58   #105
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Not only am I consistent, Iím morally superior to any being, mythical or not, that condones slavery.
To be fair, you're also not omniscient or omnipotent. You presumably don't have the ability to tell people to stop owning slaves or they'll be turned into pillars of salt and then follow through with the threat.

God does supposedly have that ability, why didn't He exercise it in the Bible?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:17   #106
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I believe that nobody has any right to force their religion on anyone else be it Christianity, Statism or anything else. I find one just as silly as another but as long as they mind their own business, I couldn't care less.

I believe in my right to defend myself against ignorant people who can't mind their own business because it seems rare that I meet a religious person who can accept that others aren't buying their brand of faith. Liberal statists seem to be the worst but the bible thumpers are a close second.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:18   #107
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Posted by AM:
To be fair, you're also not omniscient or omnipotent. You presumably don't have the ability to tell people to stop owning slaves or they'll be turned into pillars of salt and then follow through with the threat.

God does supposedly have that ability, why didn't He exercise it in the Bible?
To be fair, there aren't any omniscient or omnipotent beings and never were.

We both know the god of the OT is mythical. The reason he's shown as approving of slavery in the Bible is because the actual authors of the book thought slavery was okay.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:12   #108
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To be fair, there aren't any omniscient or omnipotent beings and never were.

We both know the god of the OT is mythical. The reason he's shown as approving of slavery in the Bible is because the actual authors of the book thought slavery was okay.
And that is how the "belief" house of cards falls.

If the Bible is not inerrant, as I once believed, then maybe some of my other beliefs are not true either. If inspired men can be mistaken, because of personal bias, then I now get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible I will believe, and live by.

Took me years to get to that point. inertia186 is on his way, but may never get there.

Beliefs change in time as we learn and grow. Faith grows. The one thing that stops growth is adherence to dogma, in spite of a logical argument against it.

Christians believe that God allows sin, for a time, but one day will fix it all.

God detests sin, but apparently does not detest slavery. Therefore slavery is not sin. Maybe the Bible is not about freedom that we love much in this country.

America and it's freedom are against God and his plan. I think that a lot of Christians come to that conclusion. They see their own country as being fundamentally against God.

Freedom or dogma...........you get to choose.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:28   #109
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Posted by NMG26:
Freedom or dogma...........you get to choose.
Yep.

I'll say it again: The most serious threat to human liberty is religious faith.
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Old 01-03-2013, 15:41   #110
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Took me years to get to that point. inertia186 is on his way...
Why do you say that inertia186 is on his way?
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Old 01-03-2013, 16:43   #111
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And that is how the "belief" house of cards falls.

If the Bible is not inerrant, as I once believed, then maybe some of my other beliefs are not true either. If inspired men can be mistaken, because of personal bias, then I now get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible I will believe, and live by.
Why do you need to believe or live by any of it? Why not trust and believe in yourself?
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:10   #112
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Why do you say that inertia186 is on his way?
Since it happened in my life, I can see it happen for anyone. A great majority of "believers" do not talk doctrine. If I186 is willing to explore his beliefs, the next step is allowing them to change. Faith changes as we grow and learn if we let it.
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Old 01-03-2013, 19:16   #113
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Why do you need to believe or live by any of it? Why not trust and believe in yourself?
Well that is part of the progression. At least for me it was. Being willing to allow change. Christianity is the greatest infuence in my life, and I don't feel the need to throw it all away. I can still find good and God in the bible.

As for trusting and believing in myself, I do, but I also can't shake the presence of God. I prefer to believe in something bigger then me, with me, in me, as part of my experience. It helps me not feel all alone I guess. I feel a oneness with the universe. That grew out of my Christian experience. Maybe it is the sign I was born under? I don't know, I just prefer to keep spirituality alive and well in my life. This forum actually helps me do just that.

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Old 01-04-2013, 10:06   #114
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Since it happened in my life, I can see it happen for anyone. A great majority of "believers" do not talk doctrine. If I186 is willing to explore his beliefs, the next step is allowing them to change. Faith changes as we grow and learn if we let it.
If I have proven I am willing to explore my faith, then I'm happy. And I'm also happy if people believe the US is at odds with God, because it's true.

I don't believe God ever wanted good people to enslave other good people. But I also don't believe there have ever been very many good people, so it's moot.

I think there was a time when God gave direction, a covenant, to despicable people that included the topic of enslaving other despicable people. That covenant had warnings if they continued to be despicable, the tables would be turned and those they enslaved would get to enslave them if they failed to follow all of the covenant they were given.

And that time has passed. God's covenant could not be fulfilled by anyone until Christ. And now we have a new covenant.
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Old 01-04-2013, 22:31   #115
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If I have proven I am willing to explore my faith, then I'm happy. And I'm also happy if people believe the US is at odds with God, because it's true.
How can a nation be at odds with an omnipotent being? That's not exactly a fair fight.
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I think there was a time when God gave direction, a covenant, to despicable people that included the topic of enslaving other despicable people. That covenant had warnings if they continued to be despicable, the tables would be turned and those they enslaved would get to enslave them if they failed to follow all of the covenant they were given.
The Israelites were despicable?
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And that time has passed. God's covenant could not be fulfilled by anyone until Christ. And now we have a new covenant.
Which, based on Philemon and other references in the NT, also allows for slavery.
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Old 01-05-2013, 15:31   #116
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If I have proven I am willing to explore my faith, then I'm happy.

But I also don't believe there have ever been very many good people, so it's moot.

I think there was a time when God gave direction, a covenant, to despicable people that included the topic of enslaving other despicable people.

And that time has passed. God's covenant could not be fulfilled by anyone until Christ. And now we have a new covenant.
I found the belief that people are despicable to God to be an appalling belief.

A belief that causes one to not see how awesome humanity is, needs to be reexamined.

The whole idea of man being born a sinner or in some way flawed, as the base for the rest of it's theology, is warped.

The starting point of theology should start and finish with the spectacular specimen that mankind is.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:01   #117
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The starting point of theology should start and finish with the spectacular specimen that mankind is.
Ok, Christian, atheist, or anything else that just blows me away. Where is the empirical evidence for that statement? No matter what list you compile there will always be a longer, more astounding list of atrocities that mankind performs. Not just past tense, current as in war, murder, rape, genocide, sex slavery, slavery, on both individual and corporate levels. If one thing has been proven over and over it is that humans destroy everything they touch with big exceptions where we do something seemingly amazing only to destroy it later. Why that is may be up for debate, but how the truth of it can be debated in any other than a "I have faith in mankind" way I do not know. Of course, that would be a faith statement, and thus a nothing statement right?
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Old 01-08-2013, 00:47   #118
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Ok, Christian, atheist, or anything else that just blows me away. Where is the empirical evidence for that statement?
47 years of life. It has been good for me. Being born in the USA in this day and time has it's advantages. All the good that you see is man's making. Men of faith brought the goodness to pass. All the evil that you see is man's making. Mankind is spiritual and we bring to pass a good world or a bad world.

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No matter what list you compile there will always be a longer, more astounding list of atrocities that mankind performs. Not just past tense, current as in war, murder, rape, genocide, sex slavery, slavery, on both individual and corporate levels. If one thing has been proven over and over it is that humans destroy everything they touch with big exceptions where we do something seemingly amazing only to destroy it later.
No argument there. If we wreck it, we fix it........as it should be. We can. We have an amazing ability to make things good. That is what faith is all about. Faith is ours to make a better world. Faith is ours to overcome evil. The faith that Christianity teaches, shows God to have no faith in mankind. The faith that Christianity teaches, shows God to have no faith in His own creation.

God has faith in us. That is an amazing realization to come to. God trusts us. That is a high thought.

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Why that is may be up for debate, but how the truth of it can be debated in any other than a "I have faith in mankind" way I do not know. Of course, that would be a faith statement, and thus a nothing statement right?
Faith statements are powerful.

What we say, we do.

If you believe you can not, then you will prove yourself right. If you believe you can, then you will most likely succeed.
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Old 01-08-2013, 13:22   #119
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47 years of life. It has been good for me. Being born in the USA in this day and time has it's advantages.
Well I am honestly happy you have had a good life, but this does not speak to why mankind is good. America is full of of folks that are starving, selling their bodies, selling their children's bodies, killing their children (born and unborn, etc.

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No argument there. If we wreck it, we fix it........as it should be. We can. We have an amazing ability to make things good.
I guess this depends on one's view of good. Again, I see us breaking things, but rarely fixing them, and then only temporarily and poorly before we break them again.

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God has faith in us. That is an amazing realization to come to. God trusts us. That is a high thought.
How did you come to this realization? Did God tell you this?


Faith statements are powerful.

What we say, we do.

If you believe you can not, then you will prove yourself right. If you believe you can, then you will most likely succeed.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-08-2013, 14:50   #120
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How did you come to this realization? Did God tell you this?
That is what realizations are. God telling us something.

I came to the realization while still a Christian. The way that I saw it, God limited Himself, by giving us the "ministry of reconciliation".

"And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."


Being an ambassador is a trust given by a higher authority.




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