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Old 12-21-2012, 11:27   #1
Bill Powell
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yes, Virginia, there is a gun show loophole

As I said, there is a gun show loophole, and it has been made legal by our fathers in Washington.

I've been at a lot of gun shows and watched some vato, covered in gang and prison tattoos, dragging his mother or girl friend who has a clean record, and making her buy the gun of his choice. It's legal, it shouldn't be, but it's legal.

Curing that loophole would affect the inherit freedoms of several people and I'm not sure I would want to do that. I think I'd rather take my chances with the vato.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:29   #2
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It's not legal for purchasing alcohol, I don't see why it's legal for firearms. If you see a minor walk into your store, choose which alcohol he wants, and then he sends in a person who is legal to actually purchase the alcohol, you can spend some time in jail for selling to a minor. So why can this sort of thing happen for firearms?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:38   #3
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That sounds like a straw purchase to me, which isn't legal.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:40   #4
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That sounds like a straw purchase to me, which isn't legal.
The problem is how do you actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court that it is indeed a straw purchase? The seller could say he had no idea the other person intended to give it to someone who is not allowed to own firearms, and the buyer could say he/she bought it for themself, and had no intention of buying it for their friend. What proof would a prosecutor have to go on that it was a straw purchase?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:41   #5
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How is it any different if a felon has his GF do a straw purchase at a gunshow, or if it happens at Walmart?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:44   #6
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
The problem is how do you actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court that it is indeed a straw purchase? The seller could say he had no idea the other person intended to give it to someone who is not allowed to own firearms, and the buyer could say he/she bought it for themself, and had no intention of buying it for their friend. What proof would a prosecutor have to go on that it was a straw purchase?
I think it sometimes goes something like:

Felon gets caught with gun
They look into gun's previous transactions
They see the GF bought the gun, she knows he was a felon and she gets charged.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:45   #7
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He said/she said.

The "loophole" will be closed. I said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again:

Watch for "FFL Service Booths" to be set up @ the back of gun shows. For the low, low price of $20, they'll allow you to do a legal transfer at a show.

Of course, that has nothing to do with a straw purchase. But, I see few likely straw purchases at shows. However, I do see many "shady" folks only crusin' private sale tables and doing business with them. Granted, they may be legit...but I'm 100% certain that not all those fellas could pass a NICS check.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:46   #8
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Lone Wolfe is right. The OP is confusing and talking about two different things: 1) the so called "gun show loophole" and 2) straw purchases.

Totally not related. The OP is describing a straw purchase. Already illegal.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:49   #9
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Originally Posted by USMCsilver View Post
He said/she said.

The "loophole" will be closed. I said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again:

Watch for "FFL Service Booths" to be set up @ the back of gun shows. For the low, low price of $20, they'll allow you to do a legal transfer at a show.

Of course, that has nothing to do with a straw purchase. But, I see few likely straw purchases at shows. However, I do see many "shady" folks only crusin' private sale tables and doing business with them. Granted, they may be legit...but I'm 100% certain that not all those fellas could pass a NICS check.
They will push for what CA has, all sales must go through a FFL and 10 day waiting period. No exemptions.

Gun shows here are extra stupid, you basically just make an appointment for a transaction at a gunshop rather than do an actual transaction at the show.

Private party sales will be targeted for mandatory background checks.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:50   #10
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Originally Posted by elsolo View Post
I think it sometimes goes something like:

Felon gets caught with gun
They look into gun's previous transactions
They see the GF bought the gun, she knows he was a felon and she gets charged.
I sure do hope that would hold up in court, we need people to start realizing that buying guns for felons is not legal.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:55   #11
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I sure do hope that would hold up in court, we need people to start realizing that buying guns for felons is not legal.
It says so right on form 4473 that you have to check off specifically stating you are NOT buying the gun for somebody else who cannot buy it themselves.

There are also signs in gun stores that point out what a straw purchase is and remind you of it's illegality.

People aren't aiding and abetting felons in the acquisition of firearms because they are ignorant, they know exactly what they are doing but are the kind of person that associates with felons and has little respect for law.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:07   #12
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Originally Posted by elsolo View Post
It says so right on form 4473 that you have to check off specifically stating you are NOT buying the gun for somebody else who cannot buy it themselves.

There are also signs in gun stores that point out what a straw purchase is and remind you of it's illegality.

People aren't aiding and abetting felons in the acquisition of firearms because they are ignorant, they know exactly what they are doing but are the kind of person that associates with felons and has little respect for law.
And I'd also imagine that they are VERY rarely prosecuted when caught. Perhaps that should change, and the fact that it has be publicised.

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:11   #13
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It says so right on form 4473 that you have to check off specifically stating you are NOT buying the gun for somebody else who cannot buy it themselves.

There are also signs in gun stores that point out what a straw purchase is and remind you of it's illegality.

People aren't aiding and abetting felons in the acquisition of firearms because they are ignorant, they know exactly what they are doing but are the kind of person that associates with felons and has little respect for law.
I'm just wondering how easy it is for them to be prosecuted. I'm guessing not very, unless it's just not publicized very much.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:20   #14
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It's sometimes obvious when there's a straw purchase. The seller/ffl has to decide if they want to make a sale or not. Unless the FFL alerts the ATF of an attempted straw purchase how's the ATF or anyone else going to know?
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:27   #15
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The gansta don't give a damn whan the wife/mother/girl friend has to check to finalize the sale. One solution would be an automatic 10 day waiting period for any gun show purchase. Maybe not.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:28   #16
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It's sometimes obvious when there's a straw purchase. The seller/ffl has to decide if they want to make a sale or not. Unless the FFL alerts the ATF of an attempted straw purchase how's the ATF or anyone else going to know?
Exactly.
How will anybody know, unless it is reported or the felon gets caught with it during another crime at a later date?
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:30   #17
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Originally Posted by Bill Powell View Post
The gansta don't give a damn whan the wife/mother/girl friend has to check to finalize the sale. One solution would be an automatic 10 day waiting period for any gun show purchase. Maybe not.
How will a 10 day waiting period have any influence whatsoever on straw purchases?

That's just a "crime of passion" law, so you don't get mad and go buy a gun right now to shoot me in an hour.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:31   #18
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The gansta don't give a damn whan the wife/mother/girl friend has to check to finalize the sale. One solution would be an automatic 10 day waiting period for any gun show purchase. Maybe not.
What about private sales outside of a gun show?
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:32   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Powell View Post
As I said, there is a gun show loophole, and it has been made legal by our fathers in Washington.

I've been at a lot of gun shows and watched some vato, covered in gang and prison tattoos, dragging his mother or girl friend who has a clean record, and making her buy the gun of his choice. It's legal, it shouldn't be, but it's legal.

Curing that loophole would affect the inherit freedoms of several people and I'm not sure I would want to do that. I think I'd rather take my chances with the vato.
As has been said, this is the very definition of a straw purchase and is just as illegal at the gun show as it is at any gun store. I hate to see folks on our side make the argument for the antis. You're a smart guy, Mr. Powell. The focus should be on the crazies, not ordinary law abiding folks.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:33   #20
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Do we really have a problem with private sales having to go through a BG check?

I mean if they charge a reasonable fee. Let's say $10-$20. I think it will prevent a lot of legally owned guns being sold to people who should not own one.

As a private seller there is no way for me to verify the guy I'm selling a gun to is legally allowed to own it unless I require them to present me with a CHL.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:34   #21
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The gansta don't give a damn whan the wife/mother/girl friend has to check to finalize the sale. One solution would be an automatic 10 day waiting period for any gun show purchase. Maybe not.
A straw purchase can happen at a regular dealer lgs just as easily as it can a gun show..... So I'm still no sure what the "gun show loophole" is you are referring to?


All the same laws apply outside of guns shows as inside.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:39   #22
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IMHO back ground checks have never prevented any crime. Neither have waiting periods. Conversely, they have cost innocent people their lives while having to wait to be ale to defend themselves.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:40   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G23Gen4TX View Post
Do we really have a problem with private sales having to go through a BG check?

I mean if they charge a reasonable fee. Let's say $10-$20. I think it will prevent a lot of legally owned guns being sold to people who should not own one.

As a private seller there is no way for me to verify the guy I'm selling a gun to is legally allowed to own it unless I require them to present me with a CHL.
So, you're for 100% registration? That's what the goal is. Has nothing to do with background checks, has nothing to do with gun shows. Requiring a FFL check has to do with getting every purchase down on governmental paper to record every sale.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:40   #24
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I would accept this. You do the background check, and get a card good for 30 days. Buy whatever you want for 30 days without the serial number going to big brother.
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:51   #25
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I would accept this. You do the background check, and get a card good for 30 days. Buy whatever you want for 30 days without the serial number going to big brother.
Why 30 days? Why not a year?

What's going to stop people from doing straw purchases with your little card or even forging them?

Appeasement gets us nowhere.
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