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Old 12-23-2012, 22:26   #1
Adams454
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Does anyone make training ammo that fails on purpose?

I'm thinking someone should make a line of ammo specifically for defensive training schools like Gunsite, etc. Maybe figure out how to load 10 rounds or so per 100 in a mixed bag with either dud primers, or barely enough powder to exit the barrel, but not cycle the gun. Of course it would have to be clearly marked for training only. But it seems like the random failures would actually help during a defensive course.

I'm sure you would have to figure out how to minimize the liability, like maybe anodize the brass red or something. But I'm thinking there wouldn't be a lot of liability because the only people buying it would know what it's for.

The reason I came up with the idea is because the guns I shoot regularly are so reliable, I don't get a lot of clearance practice. I've had my G27 for 5+ years and never had it jam.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:32   #2
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Why not just stick a .40 SnapCap in the stack? That's what they did in the Personal Protection course I took. HH
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:36   #3
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I was thinking that would too off the person being trained. They would be looking for it in that mag. That's why I was thinking all the ammo should look the same.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:40   #4
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Have someone else load all of your mags and add in a few snap caps.

Turn around and do 20 push-ups then stand and engage targets from contact distance. Each time you have a FTF; tap, rack and assess!

We do this in training every now and again and it's amazing that some folks panic.

Work the damn problem and stay in the fight!
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:42   #5
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Snap caps has worked for me. But sometimes i have to close my eyes when i load my mags so I don't know which round it is.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:42   #6
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I vote for the snap caps too. Easier to identiy in a stressful situation.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:44   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post

Turn around and do 20 push-ups then stand and engage targets from contact distance.
You've never seen the guys at my range, have you? HH
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:47   #8
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I mix dummy plastic rounds in my magazines all the time. I vary where the dummy round will be; second, third, next to last, etc. After loading the mags, I'll not look at them while putting them into my mag pouch. Yes, I know I loaded them with dummy rounds, but I have no idea where they are in a given mag.

Like the other poster mentioned, have someone else load your mags.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:47   #9
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Bought a bullet puller and made my own dummy rounds from live ammo.

Mix them around in some ammo without looking and load a magazine before target practice. Just keep count of how many you mixed in.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:51   #10
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When I took the Appleseed course we had someone else load our mags with dummy rounds. It worked pretty well.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:53   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kchur00 View Post
Bought a bullet puller and made my own dummy rounds from live ammo.

Mix them around in some ammo without looking and load a magazine before target practice. Just keep count of how many you mixed in.
With my luck, I'll come up on one of my dummies when I need a real one most. You can't mistake red plastic... HH
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:54   #12
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I sure hope you pulled the primer or fired it before reassembling the round.

A live primer will have enough force to lodged a bullet in your barrel. Been there, done that when I first started reloading. My one and only squib load in over 20 years of reloading (knock on wood).
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:55   #13
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I think purposely manufacturing defect ammo, even if it's clear that there are defective rounds for training purposes is a bad idea. A squib could be disasterous.

Use snap-caps and have someone else load the mags.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:56   #14
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The possibility of a hangfire in one of the "hot" training rounds would nix your idea. When doing action drills with snapcaps in a live ammo mag, SOMEONE on the line must know when the next round will be a dummy; an immediate action drill in training on a hangfire is dangerous.
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Old 12-24-2012, 00:19   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HollowHead View Post
You've never seen the guys at my range, have you? HH
If you're going to carry a gun and act in the defense of yourself and your family you should be in some sort of okay physical condition.

I'm not talking the elderly women carrying their husbands roscoes in their purse either.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:06   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adams454 View Post
I'm thinking someone should make a line of ammo specifically for defensive training schools like Gunsite, etc. Maybe figure out how to load 10 rounds or so per 100 in a mixed bag with either dud primers, or barely enough powder to exit the barrel, but not cycle the gun. Of course it would have to be clearly marked for training only. But it seems like the random failures would actually help during a defensive course.

I'm sure you would have to figure out how to minimize the liability, like maybe anodize the brass red or something. But I'm thinking there wouldn't be a lot of liability because the only people buying it would know what it's for.

The reason I came up with the idea is because the guns I shoot regularly are so reliable, I don't get a lot of clearance practice. I've had my G27 for 5+ years and never had it jam.
Very bad idea because there is no formula that would guarantee that the bullet will exit and not cause a squib.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:31   #17
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If you preload multiple mags when you go to the range, just stick them randomly into a couple of the mags. So you don't know which mag has them or where they will be in the mag.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:46   #18
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I load cases with only a primer, no bullet.

One way or the other I'll load the dud into the student's gun.

Here's how it goes, like a couple months ago with a lady student..

The student is shooting a 38 revolver that I had loaded.
She shoots twice, then the third time there's just a "pop". The student looks at me.
I say nothing.
The student pulls the trigger again and the next round fires.
I tell the student, "Shooting is over. I have to take you to the hospital. You fired the gun with a bullet stuck in the barrel from that dud round.".
Then we reviewed what she had already been told about a bullet being stuck in the barrel from a dud or squib load.


I have seen experienced shooters try to chamber a fresh round with a bullet stuck in the barrel, after firing a squib, or no powder load.
I stopped them by yelling, "Don't fire, you have a bullet stuck in the barrel".
The experienced shooter and another, near by, very experienced shooter did not believe me until they checked the barrel.
They asked me, "How did you know?"
I told them, "I heard the primer fire".


This is one reason I'm not a big fan of Tap, Rack and Fire.
It can be, Tap, Rack and Kaboom.


.

Last edited by M2 Carbine; 12-24-2012 at 01:51..
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:48   #19
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"Now was this a training round or not... wish I hadn't accidentally dropped it into my good ammo..."
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:37   #20
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Buy bulk packs of .22LR and use in an appropriate clone or adapter. That will give ample failure clearing practice.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:57   #21
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Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:19   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills
That I've never had a problem with. The ONLY dud I've ever had was a winchester white box just after my frame upgrade. I was in the middle of a shoot. And I didn't tap rack bang. I waited dropped the mag and field stripped checked the barrel and went on.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:21   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
...

Turn around and do 20 push-ups then stand and engage targets from contact distance. Each time you have a FTF; tap, rack and assess!
...
Respectfully, he didn't say he wanted to work on his CPR/AED skillz.

I don't think any 2 out of 3 of the YOUNG MEN (under 45) at my range(s) could knock out 12 pushups and live to talk about it. I myself once fancied the thought of doing 5 in a row, ....but a man has gotta know his limits.


And in agreement with you, in case it was missed: SNAP CAPS. Especially in a gun with tight tolerances (ie, 1911) after a few uses of snap caps, those snap caps really start binding up the action in ways unexpected (failures to feed, extract). 22LR dummy rounds also exhibit this, after a couple of primer strikes they get out of round and are harder to extract from the gun.

- G
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:13   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adams454 View Post
I'm thinking someone should make a line of ammo specifically for defensive training schools like Gunsite, etc. Maybe figure out how to load 10 rounds or so per 100 in a mixed bag with either dud primers, or barely enough powder to exit the barrel, but not cycle the gun. Of course it would have to be clearly marked for training only. But it seems like the random failures would actually help during a defensive course.
NRA sells orange tipped dummy rounds - dummies have been used in training since long before you were born. I make my own, sometimes. it is both dangerous and pointless to make them blend with real ammo - if you want to be surprised, let someone else load your magazines, do it without looking, or, in a revolver, load one and spin the cylinder without looking. I have done plenty of training with randomly loaded dummies. In fact, in my NRA law enforcement instructor school, we randomly loaded dummies in our magazines pretty much all week.

No, you haven't discovered a new idea.
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Last edited by Bren; 12-24-2012 at 06:14..
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:16   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
Use Sellier and Bellot with a striker fired handgun and you'll get stoppage drills
I don't usually choose S&B, but I have fired thousands of rounds of it in Glocks and never had a malfunction.

It mostly malfunctions on my Dillon when I try to reload their brass.
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