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Old 02-03-2013, 06:21   #351
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
That's funny, because in your very next post you say,

"Without any real evidence one way the other, ignoring all of the strongly believed speculation both ways, in my opinion each is roughly equally possible."

So somewhere in the 6 min. between those 2 posts you changed your mind from one of the 2 possibilities being highly unlikely to both possibilities being equally possible. Maybe if you'd make up your mind and stick with it there wouldn't be so much confusion.
I think you've missed it yet again. Did You miss the word "if" in a sentence? The question is not whether one of the religions of man and the text that describes it is correct vs. atheism. The question is whether there is/was a deity, or not. Even if every religious text on earth was imagined and written without any knowledge of an actual deity that designed life on earth, that doesn't negate the possibility that there was one.


The thing to consider, is it possible for two conflicting and opposite possibilities to be considered both remote and roughly equally possible.


From the perspective of one who has a firm belief one way or the other, that is probably hard to grasp.

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And knowledge is a firm belief with proof. Sounds like one is clearly superior to the other. But not so much the people who trust knowledge more than faith?
If you read something from several different sources, supposedly from several different people, does that meet the criteria for proof for you? What if there is another group claiming something different?

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You don't think we disagree? I thought we still did.

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Old 02-03-2013, 10:39   #352
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
AM, you're the one making the proposal of intelligent falling, you, for some reason, think I should support it. It's only mildly humorous the first time, and sorta boring after that.

You seem to have a problem looking at issues in context. If you have the exact same standard for everything, what is the standard? If you read it in a text book? At least 3 peer reviewed articles? At least two morning shows on different networks? What is your standard, and are you really sure you apply it to everything? Oh, and while you are identifying your standard, can you go ahead and let me know if you have any children and just an approximate age they are now?
You keep asking new questions while neglecting to answer the questions you're asked. I'm not proposing Intelligent Falling, I'm simply pointing out that it is just as well supported as the Intelligent Design you apparently believe should be taught alongside the modern evolutionary synthesis in science classes. I'm simply asking if your position on both these topics is consistent, given your stated acceptance of gravitation.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:33   #353
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You keep asking new questions while neglecting to answer the questions you're asked. I'm not proposing Intelligent Falling, I'm simply pointing out that it is just as well supported as the Intelligent Design you apparently believe should be taught alongside the modern evolutionary synthesis in science classes. I'm simply asking if your position on both these topics is consistent, given your stated acceptance of gravitation.
Gravity is present. It may have always been present. If you want to believe it was made, make the case for it. Support the argument too.

Life is present. It had a beginning. True or false? As best we can tell, there was a moment when the first cell appeared on the planet.


Evolution and the origin of life itself are two separate subjects. Life started, THEN evolution happened.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:24   #354
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...This is where I break ranks with most evolutionists. I see no reason why the natural combining of elements into the self-replicating precursor building blocks of life should not fall under the definition of 'Evolution' as well. I think the constant reminder that evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the boorish claims from theists that "you can't show what started life off in the first place". So what, neither can they and we're getting closer to that explanation so the theory of evolution still has a better story.

At the early stages it was more about chemistry than evolution but there's that other constant reminder you keep getting from us, that life is not "wild random chance" and each new step was the starting point for the next step. There's still a natural selection process going on before there was anything that scientists would agree to call "life".
I agree completely. From the quantum level up things work a certain way. Everything a level up is dependent on the way the previous level works being correct. As I have said before science isn't wrong, it's only incomplete.

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Gravity is present. It may have always been present...Evolution and the origin of life itself are two separate subjects. Life started, THEN evolution happened.
Wrong and wrong. Gravity has not always been present. Evolution and the origin of life are intrinsically linked and are two facets of one subject.
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Old 02-03-2013, 14:07   #355
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I agree completely. From the quantum level up things work a certain way. Everything a level up is dependent on the way the previous level works being correct. As I have said before science isn't wrong, it's only incomplete.



Wrong and wrong. Gravity has not always been present. Evolution and the origin of life are intrinsically linked and are two facets of one subject.
Looking at what you posted, are you of the opinion that gravity is not present? Are you sure you are saying what you meant to say??????

Have you personally witnessed a period in time when gravity was not present. Do tell.

Oh, and please take care to note the word "may" in the post you quoted. As far as I can tell, as long as there has been mass, there has been gravity, almost "fer sure" during my lifetime.

Evolution explains a characteristic of life observed on this planet, pretty well as a matter of fact. It does not explain how the first cell capable of mitosis happened. That is still a mystery to most, even if some have firm beliefs in certain possible explanations. A lot like, well........, more than a lot like faith.

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Old 02-03-2013, 15:15   #356
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Looking at what you posted, are you of the opinion that gravity is not present? Are you sure you are saying what you meant to say??????

Have you personally witnessed a period in time when gravity was not present. Do tell.

Oh, and please take care to note the word "may" in the post you quoted. As far as I can tell, as long as there has been mass, there has been gravity, almost "fer sure" during my lifetime.

Evolution explains a characteristic of life observed on this planet, pretty well as a matter of fact. It does not explain how the first cell capable of mitosis happened. That is still a mystery to most, even if some have firm beliefs in certain possible explanations. A lot like, well........, more than a lot like faith.
Yeah gravity is not currently present. Don't play dumb it doesn't suit you. I'm well aware of your "may" qualifier but prior to the event there was no gravity.

Evolution and the origins of life are two different subjects like cardiology and neurology are. They are different facets of one subject. Science. The how isn't a question, as you pointed out the why is but the why isn't important as it has no barring on the how.
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Old 02-03-2013, 15:40   #357
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Originally Posted by juggy4711 View Post
Yeah gravity is not currently present. Don't play dumb it doesn't suit you. I'm well aware of your "may" qualifier but prior to the event there was no gravity.

Evolution and the origins of life are two different subjects like cardiology and neurology are. They are different facets of one subject. Science. The how isn't a question, as you pointed out the why is but the why isn't important as it has no barring on the how.
I'm not playing dumb. I'm asking if you are. You're the one that made the dumb statement.

Are you sure that there was no gravity at any time in history? Or are you just believing what someone else has thought might be possible. Think about it for a while, then respond.

Cardiology and Neurology are most definitely different facets. One cannot switch in between them without pause. How long do you think it would take for a neurologist to become a cardiologist. Give an example or three. It's not nearly as easy as you seem to be implying.

The truth is that life began in a certain way. There was a moment on this planet when the first cell capable of maintaining homeostasis happened. Then there was a point where a cell like that could replicate itself. If you are sure how that happened, do tell.
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Old 02-03-2013, 16:29   #358
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I'm not playing dumb. I'm asking if you are. You're the one that made the dumb statement.

Are you sure that there was no gravity at any time in history? Or are you just believing what someone else has thought might be possible. Think about it for a while, then respond.

Cardiology and Neurology are most definitely different facets. One cannot switch in between them without pause. How long do you think it would take for a neurologist to become a cardiologist. Give an example or three. It's not nearly as easy as you seem to be implying.

The truth is that life began in a certain way. There was a moment on this planet when the first cell capable of maintaining homeostasis happened. Then there was a point where a cell like that could replicate itself. If you are sure how that happened, do tell.
Yes I am sure that math indicates that at a past point gravity was not a separate force. If we have to independently verify everything than no one knows much of anything.

And I was not implying anything, you choose to infer it. The truth is that neurology and cardiology are linked in the same way, not that it is easy to jump from one to other. But they are most certainly facets of one subject not two unrelated concepts.

The how is chemistry. Self replicating cells form because that is how amino acids and proteins work. It's like asking how atoms exchange electrons. They do because that is how they function. Again the why is a mystery but hardly one that matters.
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Old 02-03-2013, 18:51   #359
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Yes I am sure that math indicates that at a past point gravity was not a separate force. If we have to independently verify everything than no one knows much of anything.

..../
So you get it then. Who's going to win the super bowl, and what will be the final score?

Answer before the lights come on.

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Old 02-03-2013, 20:53   #360
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Whoops. Missed it.
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Old 02-03-2013, 22:20   #361
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Gravity is present. It may have always been present. If you want to believe it was made, make the case for it. Support the argument too.
As this is probably the closest we'll get to getting you to answer the question you were asked, let's move along. Why do you take this position with regard to gravity while advocating the teaching of intelligent design in biology?
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Life is present. It had a beginning. True or false? As best we can tell, there was a moment when the first cell appeared on the planet.
Of course, but this is completely tangential to the question at hand.
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Evolution and the origin of life itself are two separate subjects. Life started, THEN evolution happened.
Again, not something that is being disputed but a subject that is at best tangential to the discussion at hand.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:48   #362
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You did see the thread title, right?

What do you think teaching ID and Natural Phenomena in a science class looks like? I was thinking a small paragraph in a text simply stating that some people believe live was made and designed, others believe it is a natural phenomena that occurred under beneficial circumstances. That's about it. No need to support two opposite unknowns, just acknowledge they each exist and have firm believers on both sides of the issue.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:50   #363
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
You did see the thread title, right?

What do you think teaching ID and Natural Phenomena in a science class looks like? I was thinking a small paragraph in a text simply stating that some people believe live was made and designed, others believe it is a natural phenomena that occurred under beneficial circumstances. That's about it. No need to support two opposite unknowns, just acknowledge they each exist and have firm believers on both sides of the issue.
Put the ID paragraph right next to the one that says some people believe the earth is on the back of a turtle.

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Old 02-04-2013, 13:34   #364
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Put the ID paragraph right next to the one that says some people believe the earth is on the back of a turtle.

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Like I said, firm believers on both sides.

Steve, do you think any of these kids are going to get through life without being exposed to a creation story or three? I'm sure that a natural phenomena origin being exclusively taught is what you would like, but can you really say it's fair? If you think it is, it's just evidence of bias, and a desire to indoctrinate, not educate.
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Old 02-04-2013, 13:56   #365
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Like I said, firm believers on both sides.

Steve, do you think any of these kids are going to get through life without being exposed to a creation story or three? I'm sure that a natural phenomena origin being exclusively taught is what you would like, but can you really say it's fair? If you think it is, it's just evidence of bias, and a desire to indoctrinate, not educate.
Firm belief in turtles all the way down doesn't make it science. If you're going to let creation mythology into science classes there's no reason to stop at only one.

Lots of people believe in numerology. That does not mean you need to add a chapter on it in calculus classes.

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Old 02-04-2013, 14:43   #366
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Firm belief in turtles all the way down doesn't make it science. If you're going to let creation mythology into science classes there's no reason to stop at only one.

Lots of people believe in numerology. That does not mean you need to add a chapter on it in calculus classes.

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I've seen pictures of the earth from space. No turtles visible.
Numerology has also been widely discounted.

Other than your own belief, do you really know that the first cell was not created by an intelligence?

I'm not saying that there needs to be a full 4 year course on the issue, but simply acknowledge it is a question that has not been answered yet, some people believe rather strongly about it on both sides, and let it go. I'd think it unfair and intellectually dishonest to promote that only one of two possibilities is possible to appease the religious sensitivities of either atheists or theists.

It's OK to tell kids what science has not yet discovered.
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Old 02-04-2013, 15:20   #367
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Can anyone say how life began? And, if there was a process that led to it, why don't we observe that process continuing to happen now?
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Old 02-04-2013, 18:43   #368
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Can anyone say how life began? And, if there was a process that led to it, why don't we observe that process continuing to happen now?
Evolution doesn't say how life began.

Also, you can observe things that are consistent with evolution continuing to happen now. The e. coli study, for instance.

As for whatever process may or may not have created life initially - I don't think it's even been established that such processes *aren't* occuring. As for why a process that created life might not be occurring now - it might be that there is already life, and a 'new' simple organism created today by the same process would likely get either out-competed for the available resources, or consumed, by the currently existing life.

But realistically, if you don't know what the process was, and haven't even nailed down one of the possible processes people have put out there, you don't know what to look for to say if it's still occurring, or not.
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Old 02-04-2013, 18:45   #369
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I've seen pictures of the earth from space. No turtles visible.
Numerology has also been widely discounted.

Other than your own belief, do you really know that the first cell was not created by an intelligence?

I'm not saying that there needs to be a full 4 year course on the issue, but simply acknowledge it is a question that has not been answered yet, some people believe rather strongly about it on both sides, and let it go. I'd think it unfair and intellectually dishonest to promote that only one of two possibilities is possible to appease the religious sensitivities of either atheists or theists.

It's OK to tell kids what science has not yet discovered.
Do science classes not already do that?
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Old 02-04-2013, 18:51   #370
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Without any real evidence one way the other, ignoring all of the strongly believed speculation both ways, in my opinion each is roughly equally possible. Others have different opinions on the subject, obviously.
The problem is that there is no evidence for any deities ever (apart from, as far as I can tell, things like arguments from ignorance), but there is evidence deities aren't required. That doesn't appear to be roughly equal possibilities to me.
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Old 02-04-2013, 18:57   #371
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I think you'd have to tell me what you've been told.
If you don't know what I've been told, why would you assume I just have faith that what I've been told is true, or that I think scientists are infallible? I told you in post 319 "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith."
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:21   #372
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If you don't know what I've been told, why would you assume I just have faith that what I've been told is true, or that I think scientists are infallible? I told you in post 319 "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith."
Because quite plainly, it would be near impossible to do all the supporting experiments yourself.

I'll tell you what, please describe your educational background, degrees, certifications, and other training. Describe in detail, your professional life experiences, and the research you have completed yourself, to include how you know litmus paper turns a certain color in an acid and everything after that.

The most likely fact is that what you have been told seems to fit well with other things you've been told. You have a very limited amount of experience when compared to the age of the universe. You probably don't know a lot of what you think you do, and really only believe you know it.

I'll await your non-identifying CV.

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Old 02-04-2013, 19:23   #373
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Are you going to present your credentials in theology and practical and theoretical lexicography?
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:24   #374
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The problem is that there is no evidence for any deities ever (apart from, as far as I can tell, things like arguments from ignorance), but there is evidence deities aren't required. That doesn't appear to be roughly equal possibilities to me.
I'm open to discuss it. Was the life on earth created by an intelligence, or did it happen as part of a natural phenomena?

Just prove it one way or the other to me, with data, and convincing evidence, not just speculation and beliefs based on faith. A witness would be cool.

You can't. And you still just don't see the hypocrisy in that.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:25   #375
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Because quite plainly, it would be near impossible to do all the supporting experiments yourself.

I'll tell you what, please describe your educational background, degrees, certifications, and other training. Describe in detail, your professional life experiences, and the research you have completed yourself, to include how you know litmus paper turns a certain color in an acid and everything after that.

The most likely fact is that what you have been told seems to fit well with other things you've been told. You have a very limited amount of experience when compared to the age of the universe. You probably don't know a lot of what you think you do, and really only believe you know it.

I'll await your non-identifying CV.

You'll wait a while; I've gone on too many of your wild goose chases while you avoid answering direct questions to want to bother with that nonsense again. If you'd like to present any of the evidence supporting any deity, I'd be happy to take a look, but as I've said, I won't accept variations on an argument from ignorance as evidence. "I don't understand" isn't evidence of a deity; it's evidence of not understanding.

I haven't claimed to have unlimited experience or a remarkable knowledge; in post 319 I clearly said "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith." And then I repeated it. I can repeat it again if you'd like.
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