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Old 02-05-2013, 14:05   #401
hooligan74
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
...A much more reasonable approach would be to simply acknowledge that it's a controversial subject, give a very brief synopsis of the arguments from both sides, and move on. It's a very minor issue, some seem very attached to only their version of it being taught though...

No, no and no. That's not reasonable, at all, within the context of teaching children about science. Creationism doesn't belong in a SCIENCE class. What scientific evidence is there to support any of the creation myths?


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...What is your fear? Kids might discover that a lot of people believe the world and life was made?
No, that doesn't frighten me in the least. Why? It also doesn't change the fact that creationism isn't science, and as such, has no business being taught in a science class. You want it taught in mythology or philosophy or sociology? Great, I'm all for it.

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Don't you think they are going to find that out anyway? Even at school, kids are allowed to talk about their religion. It happens.
I don't have kids, but where did I ever say that I didn't think these children would find out about creationism regardless?

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I've been very pragmatic with my kids, and tried my best to tell them that their choices now will have lifelong consequences. They have to have a 1, 5, 10, and 20 year plan for where they want to be, and how they are going to get there, and it has to be written down.
That's fantastic. Good job by you and I'm certain your kids will be better for it. What does that have to do with the topic we're discussing, though?

Last edited by hooligan74; 02-05-2013 at 14:10..
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:12   #402
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When only one side of a controversial subject can be allowed to be taught, that's just not good.
There is no controversy. Once there its any evidence whatsoever of a deity, then there will be a controversy.

Mythology is not another side of a scientific debate, never has been, never will be. Science classes already cover all the sides in science.

I believe strongly, and many would agree here, that there is a retarded demon possessing you and causing you to respond the way you do to this topic.

That does not justify a paragraph in medical textbooks detailing how to exorcise retarded demons from people to cover both sides of a supposed controversy. Belief does not make it scientific or medically relevant.

Otherwise we'd also have to have a section on Santa Claus in third grade science textbooks.

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Old 02-05-2013, 14:21   #403
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who said anything about supporting a creation myth. It was either made, showed up by accident or after being sent, or was just something that happened.

As far as I'm concerned, teaching any of those as the only possibility is a myth. There is no scientific evidence proving any of the above, or a combination of them.

A truly honest scientist, with integrity, and understanding, has no problem admitting what he doesn't know. He has no problems teaching the different poorly supported theories on the subject, at least in general terms.

I'm not proposing the adam and eve model be taught, or the turtle, or zues, or any of the other be taught. Those are interesting subjects on their own, but that's a good class on history and mythology/theology.

Hey kids, guess what, we don't know everything. Humans are still on a journey of discovery. As far as how life first appeared on the planet, there are many different opinion's, some believe it was made by an intelligence, some believe it arrived after being sent by design or by chance, and some believe that all the right conditions were present so that it was able to happen as a natural phenomena.

So, thanks little johnny for that question, but back to how mitosis happens......



Surely, you have nothing to fear from that approach? Get real.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-05-2013 at 14:21..
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:26   #404
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Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
....

I believe strongly, and many would agree here, that there is a retarded demon possessing you and causing you to respond the way you do to this topic.

....
Steve. I cannot help you. You are unable to...... Well, there are a lot of things you are unable to do.

Grasp that you are a classless lout.

Accept that people have many thoughtful and well considered opinions that differ from yours.

Be polite.

I could go on and on, but what's the use. You are like school on a Saturday, and you always will be. Blame your parents, not me, I'm just noticing your poor upbringing, I didn't cause it.

Take a breather dude, your pipe is gonna melt at this rate.
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:32   #405
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Accept that people have many thoughtful and well considered opinions that differ from yours.
This is pretty easy to accept. The question in dispute is whether any of them are yours.

(That was a joke. Please take it that way - and if you don't, well, I guess I apologize in advance)
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:47   #406
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Steve. I cannot help you. You are unable to...... Well, there are a lot of things you are unable to do.

Grasp that you are a classless lout.

Accept that people have many thoughtful and well considered opinions that differ from yours.

Be polite.

I could go on and on, but what's the use. You are like school on a Saturday, and you always will be. Blame your parents, not me, I'm just noticing your poor upbringing, I didn't cause it.

Take a breather dude, your pipe is gonna melt at this rate.
You should really stop with the juvenile passive aggressive attempts at insults. If you can't recognize an analogy, that's your problem. Try Merriam-webster, I'm sure they have a definition for it.

Did you have witch doctors and voodoo practitioners do guest lectures during your medical training? Why not, wouldn't you teach the controversy? How can you prove that their spells do not work?

I'm afraid it is you who simply doesn't get it, and needs to chill here. Really, you should be quite used to having your ass handed to you in a debate, just pretend you are winning like you have been. That seems to have dulled the shame for you in the past.

Unless you actually believe in retarded demons possessing people. Even if that's true, clearly demon possession is not a sign of personal weakness on your part. It would be the fault of the demon. It would not reflect poorly on you, it's out of your control.

If you don't mind, would you share with us your grades in the faith healing portion of your medical training?

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Old 02-05-2013, 14:52   #407
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...Hey kids, guess what, we don't know everything. Humans are still on a journey of discovery. As far as how life first appeared on the planet, there are many different opinion's, but some believe that all the right conditions were present so that it was able to happen as a natural phenomena. This is the only theory that has any evidential backing, scientifically.

So, thanks little johnny for that question, but back to how mitosis happens......
THAT is what an honest science teacher would say.



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Surely, you have nothing to fear from that approach? Get real.
Why do you keep attempting to inject a feeling of fear into this? Is fear the only motivator for wanting to keep science class focused on science and let philosophy cover religions? I'm not afraid of creation myths, they just don't belong in science class.
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Old 02-05-2013, 16:14   #408
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THAT is what an honest science teacher would say.





Why do you keep attempting to inject a feeling of fear into this? Is fear the only motivator for wanting to keep science class focused on science and let philosophy cover religions? I'm not afraid of creation myths, they just don't belong in science class.
Nope, you altered what I posted to make a dishonest post.

You'll have to take that up with the mods.

Good luck with that. Hope to discuss things with you in the future if you are still posting here.


Integrity, it's non-negotiable.
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Old 02-05-2013, 18:15   #409
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That's exactly what an honest science teacher would say.

Integrity would be not feigning outrage over trivialities.

Randy

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Old 02-05-2013, 18:18   #410
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A passive lack of belief is not faith.
A firm belief without proof is faith.

There are people that land on both sides of that. It's amazing how many will claim one way, and yet act in such a way that it's difficult to believe they aren't really on the other side of that.

I believe I don't know whether or not a deity has existed. I'm very comfortable with that.
I've also become accustomed to your not knowing what you believe.
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Old 02-05-2013, 18:38   #411
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Nope, you altered what I posted to make a dishonest post.

You'll have to take that up with the mods.

Good luck with that. Hope to discuss things with you in the future if you are still posting here.


Integrity, it's non-negotiable.
Wow You are a big cry baby.

You troll posters then try to get them banned. It's not a joke either. I think you are on of the biggest BD's ever to post here.
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Old 02-05-2013, 18:59   #412
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That's exactly what an honest science teacher would say.
With respect to evolution I think an honest science teacher would say something along those lines.

With respect to 'how life first appeared on the planet' it should really be something along the lines of 'None of the competing hypotheses have enough evidential support to be accepted scientifically at the moment, but people are working on figuring it out'.
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Old 02-05-2013, 19:05   #413
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Wow You are a big cry baby.

You troll posters then try to get them banned. It's not a joke either. I think you are on of the biggest BD's ever to post here.
Quite the legend in RI.

Do you think I need to spell out the point? That no matter how many people, no matter how fervently they believe that there are retarded demons possessing him it would not merit a paragraph in medical literature as an alternative diagnosis? Kind of analogous to including non scientific beliefs in science classes, right? You'd think that was pretty easy to grasp, wouldn't you?

I don't think it could be clearer, but you know how obtuse the old boy can pretend to be when it suits his purposes and he wants to pretend to be outraged over imagined insults... especially useful for escaping/changing the subject when he has no rebuttal.

Randy

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Old 02-06-2013, 01:14   #414
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Gravity exists in the present. It can be experienced, witnessed and described.
Evolution exists in the present. It can be experienced, witnessed and described.
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The moment life began on the planet happened in the past, at a time we cannot state within a decade, under unknown circumstances.

Are you really not seeing the difference? Up till now, ive assumed this was argumentum ad absurdum. I'm not so sure anymore.
Obviously, that's your error, and a regrettable one. Up til now, I'd thought you understood the concepts under discussion and were being intentionally obtuse. I'm not so sure anymore.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:18   #415
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Just that there is a controversy between natural phenomena, creation, extraterrestrial arrival.
There is no controversy within the scientific community.
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Teaching only the side you agree with is indoctrination, not education. It's hard to see from a polarized perspective I guess.
It isn't a question of whether or not someone agrees, it's a question of what the evidence supports.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:20   #416
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Evolution exists in the present. It can be experienced, witnessed and described.
Obviously, that's your error, and a regrettable one. Up til now, I'd thought you understood the concepts under discussion and were being intentionally obtuse. I'm not so sure anymore.
I've repeated stated that Cav's posts demonstrate that he doesn't actually understand what he's talking about. He seems to be taken in by one or more of the imagined explanations he was referencing in another thread.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:50   #417
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The med school analogy is spot on.

The net is loaded with alternative and holistic "treatments" for every illness you can think of.Shouldn't medical school teach these alternatives? Shark cartalige can cure\prevent cancer, gluten free diets can heal the autistic. There is no such thing as mental illness, people just need to take more vitamins according to Tom Cruise and the scientology folks. We can even bring back good old fashioned bleedings.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:01   #418
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Nope, you altered what I posted to make a dishonest post.

You'll have to take that up with the mods.

Good luck with that. Hope to discuss things with you in the future if you are still posting here.


Integrity, it's non-negotiable.
WTF??? Of COURSE I changed the wording of your post. That was the entire point. I edited it to reflect what an honest teacher would actually say to a science class. Notice I typed "THAT is what an honest science teacher would say" directly below the quote? If that's not an indication that *I* changed the verbiage, I'm not sure what would be.

And what's all this "take it up with the mods", "if you're still posting here" and "integrity" nonsense? Do you really think I was attempting to pass that off as your original post? Really? Really? If I was, I'd at least be clever enough to not call out the fact that I changed the wording.

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Old 02-06-2013, 09:04   #419
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I'm no biochemist, but from what I've read - self-replicating RNA. It's certainly a long way from proof, but it's evidence that points toward abiogenesis being *possible*.

It's also far more evidence than creationism, from any religion/belief, has.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...w=1344&bih=771

CavDoc, I see you've side-stepped this post, after specifically requesting it, as well.

Sure, it's not proof of abiogenesis, but it's scientific data that points to the possibility of it happening. It's also a damn sight more than Creationism has.

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Old 02-06-2013, 09:05   #420
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...Why do you keep attempting to inject a feeling of fear into this? Is fear the only motivator for wanting to keep science class focused on science and let philosophy cover religions? I'm not afraid of creation myths, they just don't belong in science class.
You also never adressed this, either.

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Old 02-06-2013, 09:53   #421
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You also never adressed this, either.

He won't... he'll either side step it, misrepresent what you said and make some complete false argument and attack it, or tell you that you're being rude so he feels no need to respond or some other sneaky dishonest tactic that he constantly uses. I don't think Cav Pa has ever made a solid case for or against anything other than him not liking Atheists. He's just too wishy washy.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:01   #422
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I'm waiting for examples of faith healing and various voodoo practices, sacrificing chickens, etc. in med school classes too. You are cheating students if you don't teach the controversy. That's what I heard, anyway.

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Old 02-06-2013, 10:18   #423
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I don't think Cav Pa has ever made a solid case for or against anything other than him not liking Atheists. He's just too wishy washy.
Yes, that's his modis operandi. He never puts anything in writing to which he might be held accountable. Instead, he speaks only in colloquial generalities laced with passive aggressive language and implied aspersions of dishonesty, ignorance and rudeness.

He makes assertions, but he will not support them. When asked a specific question, he substitutes another more to his liking and pretends he has addressed your point. When referred back to previous statements, he is dissmisive and condescending. Any intellectually dishonest tactic is preferable to open, truthful and polite dialogue.

I have even observed him employ such tactics when the truth would serve his purposes better. That indicates to me that these traits are deeply ingrained character flaws. Doc is probably incapable of telling the truth even if his life depended on it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:38   #424
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Yes, that's his modis operandi. He never puts anything in writing to which he might be held accountable. Instead, he speaks only in colloquial generalities laced with passive aggresive language and implied aspersions of dishonesty, ignorance and rudeness.

He makes assertions, but he will not support them. When asked a specific question, he substitutes another more to his liking and pretends he has addressed your point. When referred back to previous statements, he is dissmisive and condescending. Any intellectually dishonest tactic is preferable to open, truthful and polite dialogue.

I have even observed him employ such tactics when the truth would serve his purposes better. That indicates to me that these traits are deeply ingrained character flaws. Doc is probably incapable of telling truth even if his life depended on it.
All true.
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Old 02-06-2013, 13:44   #425
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You also never adressed this, either.


Well then, let me ask, why is it that so many around here are so emotionally distraught about someone suggesting that a teacher should be admitting what science does not know in a science class?

Fear of something seemed like a reasonable assumption, but if you have another reason, I'd love to hear it.
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