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Old 02-02-2013, 06:56   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith.



Thank you for a straight answer.
It's a matter of believing what others have told you, in texts, video, verbally, and it all reasonably fits. Much of what we really think we "know" about science was simply told to us in one way or another. Even scientists build on previous work, and don't go back and verify everything, that would be unreasonable.

Belief without proof, which is OK, because proving every little detail about every little thing we have been taught would take many lifetimes. So, it's reasonable to believe in some things that seem reasonable.
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Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-02-2013 at 06:57..
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:09   #322
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Do you believe gravitation is one of the fundamental forces in the universe or is it an expression of the actions of intelligent falling? If you're not sure, would you advocate teaching both positions in a science class?
It is what it is. Gravity is something we experience, we have all tested it in one way or another, and know the effects. We drop things, we observe acceleration, most of us even timed a fall from a height with differently weighted objects in school. What we have been told and experienced of gravity fits. It makes sense. It's a reasonable explanation of what we observe and have been told.

Evolution is a little different. Most of us haven't really experienced evolution. We've been told a lot a bout it, it seems very reasonable. Some seem to think the likely presence of evolution answers other questions, like how life began, but that's a different topic. Evolution is what happens here on this planet, and it happened after life began. It's reasonable to believe in evolution, but I wouldn't use it to extrapolate in an unsupported manner to different topics.


AM, if you consistently apply a rule to every single situation, often, you're going to make mistakes. Cookie Cutter responses don't work. Gravity, very well explained while not yet fully explained, but readily observable, and testable. What test would you propose to tell if life happened, or was made?

ID and Natural Phenomena are competing ideas. Neither is well proven. Both are believed in very strongly. The non-polarized answer is that there is a reasonable way to present both ideas without indoctrinating children. If done right, they will be able to figure it out. Advocating for indoctrination of your position is no better than theists advocating for the same.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:11   #323
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
True. What we believe doesn't define reality for anyone other than ourselves.

Unless you are an evolutionary scientist and have done all of the supporting experiments yourself, aren't you just believing what you have been told, likely because it does fit well with a lot of other stuff you have been told?

We agree, we believe in evolution. Where is the problem?
So your stance is that everything we perceive as "true" or "real" is simply faith unless we've experienced it first-hand?
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:19   #324
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So your stance is that everything we perceive as "true" or "real" is simply faith unless we've experienced it first-hand?
Not everything. Only things that you have a firm belief in for which you have no proof is faith.

It's just the realization that much of what we think we know, we really only believe in. Some beliefs are reasonable enough to bet your life on, some not so much. It does not mean that you cannot count on the things you believe.

Haven't you ever been really sure something was a certain way, then found out later you were wrong? Maybe what you believed was just the most often occurrence, the only one you had observed, but it turned out to be one of many.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:29   #325
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OK, thanks. I just wanted to clarify your position. Yes, if we only consider the things we've personally experienced as things we "know", we sure don't "know" very much.

I personally don't view knowledge that way, however.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:58   #326
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It is what it is. Gravity is something we experience, we have all tested it in one way or another, and know the effects. We drop things, we observe acceleration, most of us even timed a fall from a height with differently weighted objects in school. What we have been told and experienced of gravity fits. It makes sense. It's a reasonable explanation of what we observe and have been told.
Direct experience is the acceptable standard. Got it.
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Evolution is a little different. Most of us haven't really experienced evolution.
Yes we have. Ever had the flu or a cold two years in a row? That's evolution. Known anyone infected with MRSA or CRE? That's evolution.
Quote:
We've been told a lot a bout it, it seems very reasonable. Some seem to think the likely presence of evolution answers other questions, like how life began, but that's a different topic. Evolution is what happens here on this planet, and it happened after life began. It's reasonable to believe in evolution, but I wouldn't use it to extrapolate in an unsupported manner to different topics.
And is anyone advocating doing this? Could you produce some examples?
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AM, if you consistently apply a rule to every single situation, often, you're going to make mistakes.
Actually, that's exactly how science works. Gravitation isn't sometimes valid and other times invalid within the same frame of reference. Every time you drop an object on Earth, the acceleration as a result of gravitation is going to be 9.8 m/s^2
Quote:
Cookie Cutter responses don't work. Gravity, very well explained while not yet fully explained, but readily observable, and testable. What test would you propose to tell if life happened, or was made?
What test would you propose to eliminate Intelligent Falling as the cause of the observed phenomenon of gravity?
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ID and Natural Phenomena are competing ideas.
So are Intelligent Falling and Natural Phenomena
Quote:
Neither is well proven.
But only one offers any testable hypothesis or has a foundation in any evidence.
Quote:
Both are believed in very strongly. The non-polarized answer is that there is a reasonable way to present both ideas without indoctrinating children. If done right, they will be able to figure it out. Advocating for indoctrination of your position is no better than theists advocating for the same.
Which brings us back to the question you failed to address from my previous post. Would you advocate teaching both "natural" gravity and Intelligent Falling in physics classes?
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:30   #327
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Direct experience is the acceptable standard. Got it.
Not always. It's OK, even recommended to look at each issue separately, and decide what is the best standard.

I'm pretty sure getting shot is not fun. I've seen a couple hundred people with holes in them from fast moving pieces of metal, but have never been shot. Not one of them was laughing and having fun. Every one of them I can think of right now looked like they were having a bad day.

I don't need to shoot myself to confirm this, I can just go with it.

Quote:
Yes we have. Ever had the flu or a cold two years in a row? That's evolution. Known anyone infected with MRSA or CRE? That's evolution.
True, have you personally sequenced the DNA? Or did someone else tell you they did it, and you accepted that? It's OK to accept some things easily. Others? Not so much.

Quote:
And is anyone advocating doing this? Could you produce some examples?
Yes and no. AM, I'm not going to do your google homework for you. No offense, but even when you are shown, you can't see, there is always a dis-qualifier in anything I collect for you. So please accept my apologies for not collecting data for you. Take it or leave it. Disagree, complain, whatever, it's OK. No hard feelings I hope.

Quote:
Actually, that's exactly how science works.
Not everything can be tested with litmus paper. Each question has a slightly different route to an answer.

Quote:
Gravitation isn't sometimes valid and other times invalid within the same frame of reference. Every time you drop an object on Earth, the acceleration as a result of gravitation is going to be 9.8 m/s^2
Not on Earth, or at least not under normal atmospheric conditions with every object in your front yard. Try the bowling ball and feather. But there is a good explanation for that.

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What test would you propose to eliminate Intelligent Falling as the cause of the observed phenomenon of gravity?
Anything you would like to try. Get back to us with that thesis paper when it's done.

Quote:
So are Intelligent Falling and Natural Phenomena
But only one offers any testable hypothesis or has a foundation in any evidence.
Which brings us back to the question you failed to address from my previous post. Would you advocate teaching both "natural" gravity and Intelligent Falling in physics classes?
It has been a mildly interesting argumentum ad absurdum that you have proposed. "If you are for this, then you have to be for that" is usually a failing of digital thinkers.
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Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-02-2013 at 08:33..
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:57   #328
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It's a matter of believing what others have told you, in texts, video, verbally, and it all reasonably fits. Much of what we really think we "know" about science was simply told to us in one way or another. Even scientists build on previous work, and don't go back and verify everything, that would be unreasonable.

Belief without proof, which is OK, because proving every little detail about every little thing we have been taught would take many lifetimes. So, it's reasonable to believe in some things that seem reasonable.
Those are nice statements, but don't really address the issue at hand. Neither gravity nor evolution are in doubt and are therefore not matters of faith, and virtually anyone can confirm they are facts with a little effort.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:25   #329
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Those are nice statements, but don't really address the issue at hand. Neither gravity nor evolution are in doubt and are therefore not matters of faith, and virtually anyone can confirm they are facts with a little effort.
Neither have been completely explained either. I believe in gravity. I believe in evolution.

Gravity is more apparent to most of us every day.

Have you done any experiments yourself that confirms all life on the planet began as single celled organisms? How much effort was involved?
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Old 02-02-2013, 14:12   #330
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OK just to make sure I follow...

It seems to me what Doc is missing is the validity of what scientists tell us vs. the validity of what heads of religion tell us.

He seems to be hung up on the assumption that the fellas who will tell you what they believe is going on and be happy to explain the science behind it while encouraging you to do your own research...

that guy seems just as legit as the other fellas...

who will tell you what they believe and back it up with a bunch of loosely translated myths, rules for your wiener and a request for donations.

In other words he's assuming that science and theology have a pretty equal track record when it comes to explaining how and why things are.

Is that what's going on here?
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Old 02-02-2013, 14:13   #331
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Neither have been completely explained either.
That doesn't change the fact that they are know to be facts. There are lots of things which aren't completely explained which nevertheless are known to be factual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I believe in gravity. I believe in evolution.

Gravity is more apparent to most of us every day.
I don't have to believe in them; they're facts.

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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Have you done any experiments yourself that confirms all life on the planet began as single celled organisms? How much effort was involved?
Why would I need to?
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Old 02-02-2013, 14:16   #332
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
OK just to make sure I follow...

It seems to me what Doc is missing is the validity of what scientists tell us vs. the validity of what heads of religion tell us.

He seems to be hung up on the assumption that the fellas who will tell you what they believe is going on and be happy to explain the science behind it while encouraging you to do your own research...

that guy seems just as legit as the other fellas...

who will tell you what they believe and back it up with a bunch of loosely translated myths, rules for your wiener and a request for donations.

In other words he's assuming that science and theology have a pretty equal track record when it comes to explaining how and why things are.

Is that what's going on here?
Whenever there are two possibilities, the chance for either one to be correct is exactly 50/50.

Last edited by ksg0245; 02-02-2013 at 14:17..
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Old 02-02-2013, 15:23   #333
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
Whenever there are two possibilities, the chance for either one to be correct is exactly 50/50.
So if we only take seriously the 20 major religions today that means the atheists/"just happendists" have an equal 1/21 shot at being correct.

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Old 02-02-2013, 16:41   #334
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
Whenever there are two possibilities, the chance for either one to be correct is exactly 50/50.
So I can extrapolate from your reasoning that all possibilities are equally likely,

that out of 3 possibilities of a coin toss

1) quarter lands on the floor heads up

2) quarter lands on the floor tails up or

3) quarter lands on the floor standing on edge

each outcome will happen 33.33333.....% of the time.

Yes, of course that is what happens.

Edit: I appear to have missed the sarcasm in your post when I first responded. Never mind ksg.
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Old 02-02-2013, 18:08   #335
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
That doesn't change the fact that they are know to be facts. There are lots of things which aren't completely explained which nevertheless are known to be factual.



I don't have to believe in them; they're facts.



Why would I need to?

You don't need to, you can just have faith that what you've been told is true. After all, scientists, at least in groups, are infallible, right?
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Old 02-02-2013, 18:13   #336
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
Whenever there are two possibilities, the chance for either one to be correct is exactly 50/50.
That's an odd assumption. Are the two possibilities come tell random?
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Old 02-02-2013, 18:16   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post
So I can extrapolate from your reasoning that all possibilities are equally likely,

that out of 3 possibilities of a coin toss

1) quarter lands on the floor heads up

2) quarter lands on the floor tails up or

3) quarter lands on the floor standing on edge

each outcome will happen 33.33333.....% of the time.

Yes, of course that is what happens.

Edit: I appear to have missed the sarcasm in your post when I first responded. Never mind ksg.


Actually, a coin tossed into the air and allowed to land on the ground most frequently lands on its edge. It just rarely comes to rest on its edge. I've never seen it happen except on a movie.
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Old 02-02-2013, 18:23   #338
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OK just to make sure I follow...

It seems to me what Doc is missing is the validity of what scientists tell us vs. the validity of what heads of religion tell us.

.....
You've completely missed the point again. Where have I ever said any religious leader is equal to what scientists tell us. I'm just pointing out that most people really don't know as much as they think they do. A lot of what some think they know, they really just believe in. Which is not a bad thing at all, it's near impossible to do all of the background experiments to truly know enough to be an expert in most fields. Belief can be very reasonable, and disbelief can be very unreasonable in some things, like gravity.
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Old 02-02-2013, 18:49   #339
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You've completely missed the point again. Where have I ever said any religious leader is equal to what scientists tell us. I'm just pointing out that most people really don't know as much as they think they do. A lot of what some think they know, they really just believe in. Which is not a bad thing at all, it's near impossible to do all of the background experiments to truly know enough to be an expert in most fields. Belief can be very reasonable, and disbelief can be very unreasonable in some things, like gravity.
Nobody misses the point with you Doc. We all know your point very well by now.

You keep pushing your "atheism is religion, everything is taken on faith so atheists are just believers like theists" BS with the constant reminder/argument/hangup/obsession that science is only taken on faith if the experiments aren't done specifically by the one claiming to believe. You're trying to equate the faith that theists have in their gods and their holy books and their stories of how everything was and will be with the faith I have in a scientists (group of scientists all specializing in the relevant field actually, before I'll believe it) that says something about the way things were and will be.

I've seen you say it many times, "Have you done the experiments yourself? Nobody is around now to tell us what was really going on (truly spoken like a man that has very little clue of the many accurate ways we have to look into the past) back then so who's to say?" You keep pushing an equality between religious claims and scientific claims and a claim of foolishness on the part of anyone that considers one a more reputable source of information than the other.

Or maybe you're just stuck in another debate that hinges on the definition of a single word. "Faith" is what theists have in god, not what atheists have in science. Science has completely replaced faith with an encouragement to go find out for yourself.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 02-02-2013 at 18:51..
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Old 02-02-2013, 19:27   #340
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You don't need to, you can just have faith that what you've been told is true. After all, scientists, at least in groups, are infallible, right?
What is it you think I've been told is true?
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