GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2013, 13:49   #426
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Yes, that's his modis operandi. He never puts anything in writing to which he might be held accountable. Instead, he speaks only in colloquial generalities laced with passive aggressive language and implied aspersions of dishonesty, ignorance and rudeness.

He makes assertions, but he will not support them. When asked a specific question, he substitutes another more to his liking and pretends he has addressed your point. When referred back to previous statements, he is dissmisive and condescending. Any intellectually dishonest tactic is preferable to open, truthful and polite dialogue.

I have even observed him employ such tactics when the truth would serve his purposes better. That indicates to me that these traits are deeply ingrained character flaws. Doc is probably incapable of telling the truth even if his life depended on it.
I'm sure you think you are getting somewhere with this, but it's just not working.

I get it, someone pointing out things you don't know, but thought you did makes you uncomfortable, and you lash out in reaction to it. Popping that inductive proof fallacy that you used to seem so proud of was probably uncomfortable for you.

Maybe we'll get along again, maybe not. I'm not losing any sleep over it though.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 14:01   #427
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Well then, let me ask, why is it that so many around here are so emotionally distraught about someone suggesting that a teacher should be admitting what science does not know in a science class?

Fear of something seemed like a reasonable assumption, but if you have another reason, I'd love to hear it.

I have yet to hear anyone claim a teacher should not admit what science does not know. This does not equate to discussing/teaching creationism in science class. I admit that science doesn't know TONS of stuff. I still see no evidence to support creationism, however.

Why do you automatically assume fear is the motivator? You *do* see the difference between talking about/teaching creationism in science class and admitting that science, today, doesn't know for certain how the universe, or life on this planet, got its start - right?
hooligan74 is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 14:03   #428
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
I'm no biochemist, but from what I've read - self-replicating RNA. It's certainly a long way from proof, but it's evidence that points toward abiogenesis being *possible*.

It's also far more evidence than creationism, from any religion/belief, has.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...w=1344&bih=771

Let's also not forget this. You asked for evidence to support natural abiogenesis....
hooligan74 is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 15:05   #429
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
I have yet to hear anyone claim a teacher should not admit what science does not know. This does not equate to discussing/teaching creationism in science class. I admit that science doesn't know TONS of stuff. I still see no evidence to support creationism, however.

Why do you automatically assume fear is the motivator? You *do* see the difference between talking about/teaching creationism in science class and admitting that science, today, doesn't know for certain how the universe, or life on this planet, got its start - right?
Can you go back, and find where I've said that I think that teachers should simply state that we really don't know whether life was made here, arrived from somewhere else, or happened due to natural phenomena? It's just a point that science has not answered. I suggested maybe a paragraph on the whole topic, then moving on to what we do know.

I'm not advocating having an entire class on how life was made.

Where did the assumption of fear come from? Maybe the irrationally emotional responses to a reasonable suggestion from some around these parts? Many people lash out when afraid.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 15:07   #430
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I'm sure you think you are getting somewhere with this, but it's just not working.
Yeah... it is. He's quite positively illustrated how dishonest you are. And been much more of a gentleman about it than I would have.

Geko really makes you look bad cav-pa
Glock36shooter is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 15:19   #431
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Can you go back, and find where I've said that I think that teachers should simply state that we really don't know whether life was made here, arrived from somewhere else, or happened due to natural phenomena? It's just a point that science has not answered. I suggested maybe a paragraph on the whole topic, then moving on to what we do know.

I'm not advocating having an entire class on how life was made.

Where did the assumption of fear come from? Maybe the irrationally emotional responses to a reasonable suggestion from some around these parts? Many people lash out when afraid.
There is no scientific reason to even mention creationism, that's my point. To do so would only be in effort to pacify religious folks. Creationism has no place is science class, even mentioned in passing. Admitting we don't know the answers doesn't necessitate discussion of creationism.

Do you agree?
hooligan74 is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 15:58   #432
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
There is no scientific reason to even mention creationism, that's my point. To do so would only be in effort to pacify religious folks. Creationism has no place is science class, even mentioned in passing. Admitting we don't know the answers doesn't necessitate discussion of creationism.

Do you agree?
See, now that is biased.

Some believe that it is impossible that life was created.
Some believe that it is impossible that life just happened.
Some believe that we really don't know yet.

Which one of those would you consider middle ground and the best perspective for a balanced approach.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 15:59   #433
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Yeah... it is. He's quite positively illustrated how dishonest you are. And been much more of a gentleman about it than I would have.

Geko really makes you look bad cav-pa
Well, there is at least one thing we can agree on. You being an impartial judge isn't one of them.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-06-2013, 16:01   #434
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
See, now that is biased.

Some believe that it is impossible that life was created.
Some believe that it is impossible that life just happened.
Some believe that we really don't know yet.

Which one of those would you consider middle ground and the best perspective for a balanced approach.
People believe in witch doctors. For some reason Harvard med school doesn't include that in their classes.

Belief is not sufficient to qualify as science in the absence of evidence.

Randy



posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Last edited by steveksux; 02-06-2013 at 16:02..
steveksux is online now  
Old 02-06-2013, 16:02   #435
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Let's also not forget this. You asked for evidence to support natural abiogenesis....
I think I've been pretty consistent, it's possible that life began just as a progression of natural processes. It had to start somehow, that much we can probably agree too. Whether made or just happened is still up in the air for me.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 12:16   #436
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
See, now that is biased.

Some believe that it is impossible that life was created.
Some believe that it is impossible that life just happened.
Some believe that we really don't know yet.

Which one of those would you consider middle ground and the best perspective for a balanced approach.
Sure, if you want to consider science a bias, I guess you could say that.

BBT/Big Chill/abiogenesis all have scientific evidence to support the possibility that they occurred.

Creationism has zero scientific evidence to support that it occurred.

Explain to me, again, why both should be taught in science class?
hooligan74 is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 12:19   #437
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I think I've been pretty consistent, it's possible that life began just as a progression of natural processes. It had to start somehow, that much we can probably agree too. Whether made or just happened is still up in the air for me.

Then why the request for evidence that points to the fact that it is possible?

Do you now feel that abiogenesis is *more* likely than creationism, since there is evidence to support that it could happen?
hooligan74 is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 18:44   #438
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Sure, if you want to consider science a bias, I guess you could say that.

BBT/Big Chill/abiogenesis all have scientific evidence to support the possibility that they occurred.

Creationism has zero scientific evidence to support that it occurred.

Explain to me, again, why both should be taught in science class?
Science is not a bias. Not apolitical and honest science anyway.

Some scientists believe that Life was made, some believe it just happened.

The middle of the road and most honest approach is that we really don't know.

Both sides of the "How did it all begin" controversy want only their side of the story presented, because they are more interested in indoctrination than education.

I get it, both are very faithful that their interpretation of the data is the only correct interpretation.

And people wonder why an agnostic sees both sides as religious zealots at the far end of the spectrum.

From my perspective, yep, single mindedness and faithful belief in something that there is no proof one way or the other is religious in nature, and in spirit.

It's not that hard to present both sides of the controversial issue in 5 minutes or less, and then move onto the parts that have been proven reasonably.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-07-2013 at 18:45..
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 18:51   #439
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Then why the request for evidence that points to the fact that it is possible?

Do you now feel that abiogenesis is *more* likely than creationism, since there is evidence to support that it could happen?
There is just as much evidence that it was made as there is that it just happened. Which is to say just about none on both sides. It's hard for a person that has made up their mind beyond questioning it to understand, but it is very hard to imagine it being made, and equally very hard to imagine it just coalescing together. One is likely possible, which would completely negate the other.

Two remote possibilities are equally possible, and contradictory at the same time.

It does seem that many people feel a need to choose sides, and some, can just admit that they don't know, and still decide what to have for dinner, what to tell their kids calling from college asking for money, and what to do at work the next day.

The answer is profound, and yet trivial at the same time.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 22:36   #440
Foxtrotx1
Senior Member
 
Foxtrotx1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 4,025
Anyone who does not believe in evolution needs to take a genetics class. It's as plain as day. The DNA of a Human and the rest of the great apes are above 98 percent similarity. Mitochondria and Chloroplasts have their own DNA, SEPERATE from the cells, showing that those organelles were once independent organisms. Humans have witnessed evolution, in real time. New species from previous populations arise frequently. MRSA for example. Evolved from STAFF bacteria recently.

Further reading on this subject: Genetric Drift, Gene Flow and Mutations.
__________________
Tin Foil Free Zone.

Eagle Scout.

Last edited by Foxtrotx1; 02-07-2013 at 22:46..
Foxtrotx1 is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 23:08   #441
juggy4711
Nimrod Son
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Galveston County, TX
Posts: 3,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
There is just as much evidence that it was made as there is that it just happened...Two remote possibilities are equally possible, and contradictory at the same time...The answer is profound, and yet trivial at the same time...The middle of the road and most honest approach is that we really don't know...
No there isn't as much evidence that it was made, in fact there is no evidence of such. Even as a believer in God I have to call BS. Again with your grey area sense of superiority. Have some balls for Christ's sake.

Last edited by juggy4711; 02-07-2013 at 23:10..
juggy4711 is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 23:38   #442
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by juggy4711 View Post
No there isn't as much evidence that it was made, in fact there is no evidence of such. Even as a believer in God I have to call BS. Again with your grey area sense of superiority. Have some balls for Christ's sake.
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence one way or the other. we have evidence of what occurred after life was here, but virtually none about how it started. There are quite a few contradictory theories.

It's easy to pick a side and declare you are convinced. For many, it's hard to simply state they don't know for sure. Testicles aren't really relevant. Many women scientists would agree.

We know life is what it is today, and there are some ideas of how it began, many different beliefs, but if one is honest, no knowledge of how it really began. The unknown is scary to many.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 23:43   #443
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
Anyone who does not believe in evolution needs to take a genetics class. It's as plain as day. The DNA of a Human and the rest of the great apes are above 98 percent similarity. Mitochondria and Chloroplasts have their own DNA, SEPERATE from the cells, showing that those organelles were once independent organisms. Humans have witnessed evolution, in real time. New species from previous populations arise frequently. MRSA for example. Evolved from STAFF bacteria recently.

Further reading on this subject: Genetric Drift, Gene Flow and Mutations.
Adaptation has been observed very well, evolution is almost certainly occurring, and has been for a long time.

MRSA is still Staph though (not staff). Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 00:03   #444
juggy4711
Nimrod Son
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Galveston County, TX
Posts: 3,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence one way or the other. we have evidence of what occurred after life was here, but virtually none about how it started. There are quite a few contradictory theories.

It's easy to pick a side and declare you are convinced. For many, it's hard to simply state they don't know for sure. Testicles aren't really relevant. Many women scientists would agree.

We know life is what it is today, and there are some ideas of how it began, many different beliefs, but if one is honest, no knowledge of how it really began. The unknown is scary to many.
I don't know but I believe. Thing is I believe in the things there is evidence for. See it's not that hard. As far as what you can tell...you couldn't tell sh** if it was fresh out of you ass.

And again with your insinuations that I am scared of something. Well it sure as heck isn't you or any of the assclown beliefs you have. Damn there I was not being sensitive again. I apologize for owning you over and over. It was not my intention to make you so insecure as to feel the need to do so.

It's clear that you have issues regarding science and religion that make you feel inferior to others else you would not take the stupid stances that you do.

I'll pray that you can one day get over it. (insert sarcastic smilee here)
juggy4711 is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 00:07   #445
Foxtrotx1
Senior Member
 
Foxtrotx1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Adaptation has been observed very well, evolution is almost certainly occurring, and has been for a long time.

MRSA is still Staph though (not staff). Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus.
I have to disagree, adaption is an evolutionary process. I am however wrong, MRSA is the same species. This is what happens when we ecologists dable where we shouldn't.

Evolution is a shift in allele frequencies over time...

Since adaption is a mechanism of evolution, if we see cases of adaption we are watching evolution.

I think many people get caught up in this falsehood that one day a prokaryote magically turned into a eukaryote in one cell division.

We have to stop thinking in black and white and get with the grey.
__________________
Tin Foil Free Zone.

Eagle Scout.

Last edited by Foxtrotx1; 02-08-2013 at 00:08..
Foxtrotx1 is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 00:08   #446
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by juggy4711 View Post
I don't know but I believe. Thing is I believe in the things there is evidence for. See it's not that hard. As far as what you can tell...you couldn't tell sh** if it was fresh out of you ass.

And again with your insinuations that I am scared of something. Well it sure as heck isn't you or any of the assclown beliefs you have. Damn there I was not being sensitive again. I apologize for owning you over and over. It was not my intention to make you so insecure as to feel the need to do so.

It's clear that you have issues regarding science and religion that make you feel inferior to others else you would not take the stupid stances that you do.

I'll pray that you can one day get over it. (insert sarcastic smilee here)
Are you on something you should not be, or off something you should be on?

This is only a question.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 00:11   #447
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
I have to disagree, adaption is an evolutionary process. I am however wrong, MRSA is the same species. This is what happens when we ecologists dable where we shouldn't.

Evolution is a shift in allele frequencies over time...

Since adaption is a mechanism of evolution, if we see cases of adaption we are watching evolution.

I think many people get caught up in this falsehood that one day a prokaryote magically turned into a eukaryote in one cell division.

We have to stop thinking in black and white and get with the grey.
As I've previously stated, I do believe in evolution. The evidence is out there. But evolution is something that occurred after life as we know it existed. How it first came about is still a mystery, and it's OK if it is. It's even OK if people believe that it just happened, or if it was made, or neither.
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 00:15   #448
Foxtrotx1
Senior Member
 
Foxtrotx1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 4,025
Doc,

you may find this fascinating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

Endosymbiotic theory is one of my favorites to cover.

Ill be honest with you, I think something got the ball rolling, something beyond the scope of our universe.

However, I have seen too much evidence to believe that life did not start from the formation of amino acids in the prebiotic soup that earth was 4 billion years ago.

In fact, we now have identified amino acids in gas clouds in deep space.
__________________
Tin Foil Free Zone.

Eagle Scout.

Last edited by Foxtrotx1; 02-08-2013 at 00:19..
Foxtrotx1 is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:42   #449
Cavalry Doc
Silver Membership
MAJ (USA Ret.)
 
Cavalry Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 41,139


The symbiotic relationship between relatively distant parts of a cell necessary to maintain homeostasis, and ultimately replication is a wonder. Then that cells in distant parts of other complex organisms must differentiate and cooperate in distant parts of the organism is a wonder, then the relationships between different organisms, some only interacting once, but still necessary for the survival of another.... It's all pretty cool. It at least opens up the possibility of a design. It's not certain either way for me.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-08-2013 at 04:43..
Cavalry Doc is offline  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:34   #450
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
There is just as much evidence that it was made as there is that it just happened.
Really? I have never seen any such evidence. Care to point me in the right direction? How would you conduct experiments, and what would those experiments be, to support creationism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Which is to say just about none on both sides.
Nope. It is to say that there's not much on the side of abiogenesis and absolutely none on the side of creationism. None that I've seen, anyway, feel free to educate me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It's hard for a person that has made up their mind beyond questioning it to understand, but it is very hard to imagine it being made, and equally very hard to imagine it just coalescing together.
I haven't made up my mind, though. I'm perfectly comfortable saying we don't know. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying abiogenesis is more likely, since we have physical, repeatable evidence of how it *might* have happened. Creationism has nothing more than mythology that wasn't even a new idea when the Christians wrote it down nearly two thousand years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
One is likely possible, which would completely negate the other.

Two remote possibilities are equally possible, and contradictory at the same time.
I have no idea what you're attempting to say here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It does seem that many people feel a need to choose sides, and some, can just admit that they don't know, and still decide what to have for dinner, what to tell their kids calling from college asking for money, and what to do at work the next day.

The answer is profound, and yet trivial at the same time.
No choosing sides from me, just a realistic acknowledgement of which side of the argument has any actual evidence.

Last edited by hooligan74; 02-08-2013 at 07:49..
hooligan74 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,061
359 Members
702 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42