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Old 02-03-2013, 23:20   #361
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Gravity is present. It may have always been present. If you want to believe it was made, make the case for it. Support the argument too.
As this is probably the closest we'll get to getting you to answer the question you were asked, let's move along. Why do you take this position with regard to gravity while advocating the teaching of intelligent design in biology?
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Life is present. It had a beginning. True or false? As best we can tell, there was a moment when the first cell appeared on the planet.
Of course, but this is completely tangential to the question at hand.
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Evolution and the origin of life itself are two separate subjects. Life started, THEN evolution happened.
Again, not something that is being disputed but a subject that is at best tangential to the discussion at hand.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:48   #362
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You did see the thread title, right?

What do you think teaching ID and Natural Phenomena in a science class looks like? I was thinking a small paragraph in a text simply stating that some people believe live was made and designed, others believe it is a natural phenomena that occurred under beneficial circumstances. That's about it. No need to support two opposite unknowns, just acknowledge they each exist and have firm believers on both sides of the issue.
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Old 02-04-2013, 13:50   #363
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You did see the thread title, right?

What do you think teaching ID and Natural Phenomena in a science class looks like? I was thinking a small paragraph in a text simply stating that some people believe live was made and designed, others believe it is a natural phenomena that occurred under beneficial circumstances. That's about it. No need to support two opposite unknowns, just acknowledge they each exist and have firm believers on both sides of the issue.
Put the ID paragraph right next to the one that says some people believe the earth is on the back of a turtle.

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Old 02-04-2013, 14:34   #364
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Put the ID paragraph right next to the one that says some people believe the earth is on the back of a turtle.

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Like I said, firm believers on both sides.

Steve, do you think any of these kids are going to get through life without being exposed to a creation story or three? I'm sure that a natural phenomena origin being exclusively taught is what you would like, but can you really say it's fair? If you think it is, it's just evidence of bias, and a desire to indoctrinate, not educate.
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Old 02-04-2013, 14:56   #365
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Like I said, firm believers on both sides.

Steve, do you think any of these kids are going to get through life without being exposed to a creation story or three? I'm sure that a natural phenomena origin being exclusively taught is what you would like, but can you really say it's fair? If you think it is, it's just evidence of bias, and a desire to indoctrinate, not educate.
Firm belief in turtles all the way down doesn't make it science. If you're going to let creation mythology into science classes there's no reason to stop at only one.

Lots of people believe in numerology. That does not mean you need to add a chapter on it in calculus classes.

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Old 02-04-2013, 15:43   #366
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Firm belief in turtles all the way down doesn't make it science. If you're going to let creation mythology into science classes there's no reason to stop at only one.

Lots of people believe in numerology. That does not mean you need to add a chapter on it in calculus classes.

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I've seen pictures of the earth from space. No turtles visible.
Numerology has also been widely discounted.

Other than your own belief, do you really know that the first cell was not created by an intelligence?

I'm not saying that there needs to be a full 4 year course on the issue, but simply acknowledge it is a question that has not been answered yet, some people believe rather strongly about it on both sides, and let it go. I'd think it unfair and intellectually dishonest to promote that only one of two possibilities is possible to appease the religious sensitivities of either atheists or theists.

It's OK to tell kids what science has not yet discovered.
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Old 02-04-2013, 16:20   #367
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Can anyone say how life began? And, if there was a process that led to it, why don't we observe that process continuing to happen now?
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:43   #368
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Can anyone say how life began? And, if there was a process that led to it, why don't we observe that process continuing to happen now?
Evolution doesn't say how life began.

Also, you can observe things that are consistent with evolution continuing to happen now. The e. coli study, for instance.

As for whatever process may or may not have created life initially - I don't think it's even been established that such processes *aren't* occuring. As for why a process that created life might not be occurring now - it might be that there is already life, and a 'new' simple organism created today by the same process would likely get either out-competed for the available resources, or consumed, by the currently existing life.

But realistically, if you don't know what the process was, and haven't even nailed down one of the possible processes people have put out there, you don't know what to look for to say if it's still occurring, or not.
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:45   #369
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I've seen pictures of the earth from space. No turtles visible.
Numerology has also been widely discounted.

Other than your own belief, do you really know that the first cell was not created by an intelligence?

I'm not saying that there needs to be a full 4 year course on the issue, but simply acknowledge it is a question that has not been answered yet, some people believe rather strongly about it on both sides, and let it go. I'd think it unfair and intellectually dishonest to promote that only one of two possibilities is possible to appease the religious sensitivities of either atheists or theists.

It's OK to tell kids what science has not yet discovered.
Do science classes not already do that?
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:51   #370
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Without any real evidence one way the other, ignoring all of the strongly believed speculation both ways, in my opinion each is roughly equally possible. Others have different opinions on the subject, obviously.
The problem is that there is no evidence for any deities ever (apart from, as far as I can tell, things like arguments from ignorance), but there is evidence deities aren't required. That doesn't appear to be roughly equal possibilities to me.
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:57   #371
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I think you'd have to tell me what you've been told.
If you don't know what I've been told, why would you assume I just have faith that what I've been told is true, or that I think scientists are infallible? I told you in post 319 "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith."
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:21   #372
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If you don't know what I've been told, why would you assume I just have faith that what I've been told is true, or that I think scientists are infallible? I told you in post 319 "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith."
Because quite plainly, it would be near impossible to do all the supporting experiments yourself.

I'll tell you what, please describe your educational background, degrees, certifications, and other training. Describe in detail, your professional life experiences, and the research you have completed yourself, to include how you know litmus paper turns a certain color in an acid and everything after that.

The most likely fact is that what you have been told seems to fit well with other things you've been told. You have a very limited amount of experience when compared to the age of the universe. You probably don't know a lot of what you think you do, and really only believe you know it.

I'll await your non-identifying CV.

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Old 02-04-2013, 20:23   #373
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Are you going to present your credentials in theology and practical and theoretical lexicography?
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:24   #374
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The problem is that there is no evidence for any deities ever (apart from, as far as I can tell, things like arguments from ignorance), but there is evidence deities aren't required. That doesn't appear to be roughly equal possibilities to me.
I'm open to discuss it. Was the life on earth created by an intelligence, or did it happen as part of a natural phenomena?

Just prove it one way or the other to me, with data, and convincing evidence, not just speculation and beliefs based on faith. A witness would be cool.

You can't. And you still just don't see the hypocrisy in that.
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:25   #375
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Because quite plainly, it would be near impossible to do all the supporting experiments yourself.

I'll tell you what, please describe your educational background, degrees, certifications, and other training. Describe in detail, your professional life experiences, and the research you have completed yourself, to include how you know litmus paper turns a certain color in an acid and everything after that.

The most likely fact is that what you have been told seems to fit well with other things you've been told. You have a very limited amount of experience when compared to the age of the universe. You probably don't know a lot of what you think you do, and really only believe you know it.

I'll await your non-identifying CV.

You'll wait a while; I've gone on too many of your wild goose chases while you avoid answering direct questions to want to bother with that nonsense again. If you'd like to present any of the evidence supporting any deity, I'd be happy to take a look, but as I've said, I won't accept variations on an argument from ignorance as evidence. "I don't understand" isn't evidence of a deity; it's evidence of not understanding.

I haven't claimed to have unlimited experience or a remarkable knowledge; in post 319 I clearly said "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith." And then I repeated it. I can repeat it again if you'd like.
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:29   #376
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You'll wait a while; I've gone on too many of your wild goose chases while you avoid answering direct questions to want to bother with that nonsense again. If you'd like to present any of the evidence supporting any deity, I'd be happy to take a look, but as I've said, I won't accept variations on an argument from ignorance as evidence. "I don't understand" isn't evidence of a deity; it's evidence of not understanding.

I haven't claimed to have unlimited experience or a remarkable knowledge; in post 319 I clearly said "I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith." And then I repeated it. I can repeat it again if you'd like.
Plumber, carpenter, retail check out clerk, give us a clue......


Wild goose chase????!!! I just asked for a general description of what you've done in life, if you have to search for that, you are probably padding your CV. Just tell us what you've done, just the readers digest version.

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Old 02-04-2013, 21:37   #377
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I'm open to discuss it. Was the life on earth created by an intelligence, or did it happen as part of a natural phenomena?
There is evidence, which has been repeatedly presented here, that natural phenomena are sufficient to explain evolution, abiogenesis, and the origin of the Universe. Nobody is claiming they are the complete, or even necessarily the correct, explanations, but they haven't been refuted that I'm aware of. The only evidence I can find supporting the assertion that a deity was responsible is "Wow, that seems really complicated and I don't understand."

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Just prove it one way or the other to me, with data, and convincing evidence, not just speculation and beliefs based on faith. A witness would be cool.
Feel free to refute any of the legitimate evidence for evolution, abiogenesis, or the origin of the Universe that has been presented here so many times before. I'm not going to go tracking it down for you again only to have you dodge again, but if you can find a current legitimate theory on any of those subjects and demonstrate, "No, it couldn't possible have been that because _____," I'm sure everybody here would be really excited to see it, and even more excited if deity were the only alternative explanation.

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You can't. And you still just don't see the hypocrisy in that.
Because the hypocrisy isn't coming from me.
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:41   #378
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Plumber, carpenter, retail check out clerk, give us a clue......


Wild goose chase????!!! I just asked for a general description of what you've done in life, if you have to search for that, you are probably padding your CV. Just tell us what you've done, just the readers digest version.
What I do is immaterial to the argument I've presented. What argument have you presented supporting the existence of deity, or the involvement of any deity in the creation of Life, The Universe, and Everything, apart from "To me, that seems too complicated to have happened naturally"?

"I haven't verified all the experiments or facts, nor do I need to. I've observed enough of the facts to know it isn't a matter of faith."
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:49   #379
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You did see the thread title, right?

What do you think teaching ID and Natural Phenomena in a science class looks like?
I think that might vary depending on who was making the determination. That's why it isn't a good idea to admit things which are completely unsupported by any evidence to the discussion.
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I was thinking a small paragraph in a text simply stating that some people believe live was made and designed, others believe it is a natural phenomena that occurred under beneficial circumstances. That's about it. No need to support two opposite unknowns, just acknowledge they each exist and have firm believers on both sides of the issue.
Should there be such a paragraph about intelligent falling in physics textbooks? What about crystal energies in geology texts?
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:23   #380
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I've seen pictures of the earth from space. No turtles visible.
Numerology has also been widely discounted.
How do you really know numerology is not true? have you been in space? How would you know there's no turtles?

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Other than your own belief, do you really know that the first cell was not created by an intelligence?
That's mythology. Science requires evidence. Find some evidence that there was an intelligence that created the universe and you might have something.

You can pretend to be ignorant of what science is and is not all day long.

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I'm not saying that there needs to be a full 4 year course on the issue, but simply acknowledge it is a question that has not been answered yet, some people believe rather strongly about it on both sides, and let it go. I'd think it unfair and intellectually dishonest to promote that only one of two possibilities is possible to appease the religious sensitivities of either atheists or theists.
The only one being intellectually dishonest here is you. Continuously.

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It's OK to tell kids what science has not yet discovered.
Science has not discovered any evidence of any intelligence at work in the creation of the universe, or your posts on this subject.

That's why neither belongs in science class. You can put the intelligent design stuff in comparative mythology with the other creation myths. Be sure to give it equal time with Odin, Zues, the various other Greek and Roman Gods.

Randy
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