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Old 02-06-2013, 10:53   #421
Glock36shooter
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You also never adressed this, either.

He won't... he'll either side step it, misrepresent what you said and make some complete false argument and attack it, or tell you that you're being rude so he feels no need to respond or some other sneaky dishonest tactic that he constantly uses. I don't think Cav Pa has ever made a solid case for or against anything other than him not liking Atheists. He's just too wishy washy.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:01   #422
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I'm waiting for examples of faith healing and various voodoo practices, sacrificing chickens, etc. in med school classes too. You are cheating students if you don't teach the controversy. That's what I heard, anyway.

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Old 02-06-2013, 11:18   #423
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I don't think Cav Pa has ever made a solid case for or against anything other than him not liking Atheists. He's just too wishy washy.
Yes, that's his modis operandi. He never puts anything in writing to which he might be held accountable. Instead, he speaks only in colloquial generalities laced with passive aggressive language and implied aspersions of dishonesty, ignorance and rudeness.

He makes assertions, but he will not support them. When asked a specific question, he substitutes another more to his liking and pretends he has addressed your point. When referred back to previous statements, he is dissmisive and condescending. Any intellectually dishonest tactic is preferable to open, truthful and polite dialogue.

I have even observed him employ such tactics when the truth would serve his purposes better. That indicates to me that these traits are deeply ingrained character flaws. Doc is probably incapable of telling the truth even if his life depended on it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:38   #424
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Yes, that's his modis operandi. He never puts anything in writing to which he might be held accountable. Instead, he speaks only in colloquial generalities laced with passive aggresive language and implied aspersions of dishonesty, ignorance and rudeness.

He makes assertions, but he will not support them. When asked a specific question, he substitutes another more to his liking and pretends he has addressed your point. When referred back to previous statements, he is dissmisive and condescending. Any intellectually dishonest tactic is preferable to open, truthful and polite dialogue.

I have even observed him employ such tactics when the truth would serve his purposes better. That indicates to me that these traits are deeply ingrained character flaws. Doc is probably incapable of telling truth even if his life depended on it.
All true.
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Old 02-06-2013, 14:44   #425
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You also never adressed this, either.


Well then, let me ask, why is it that so many around here are so emotionally distraught about someone suggesting that a teacher should be admitting what science does not know in a science class?

Fear of something seemed like a reasonable assumption, but if you have another reason, I'd love to hear it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 14:49   #426
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Yes, that's his modis operandi. He never puts anything in writing to which he might be held accountable. Instead, he speaks only in colloquial generalities laced with passive aggressive language and implied aspersions of dishonesty, ignorance and rudeness.

He makes assertions, but he will not support them. When asked a specific question, he substitutes another more to his liking and pretends he has addressed your point. When referred back to previous statements, he is dissmisive and condescending. Any intellectually dishonest tactic is preferable to open, truthful and polite dialogue.

I have even observed him employ such tactics when the truth would serve his purposes better. That indicates to me that these traits are deeply ingrained character flaws. Doc is probably incapable of telling the truth even if his life depended on it.
I'm sure you think you are getting somewhere with this, but it's just not working.

I get it, someone pointing out things you don't know, but thought you did makes you uncomfortable, and you lash out in reaction to it. Popping that inductive proof fallacy that you used to seem so proud of was probably uncomfortable for you.

Maybe we'll get along again, maybe not. I'm not losing any sleep over it though.
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Old 02-06-2013, 15:01   #427
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Well then, let me ask, why is it that so many around here are so emotionally distraught about someone suggesting that a teacher should be admitting what science does not know in a science class?

Fear of something seemed like a reasonable assumption, but if you have another reason, I'd love to hear it.

I have yet to hear anyone claim a teacher should not admit what science does not know. This does not equate to discussing/teaching creationism in science class. I admit that science doesn't know TONS of stuff. I still see no evidence to support creationism, however.

Why do you automatically assume fear is the motivator? You *do* see the difference between talking about/teaching creationism in science class and admitting that science, today, doesn't know for certain how the universe, or life on this planet, got its start - right?
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Old 02-06-2013, 15:03   #428
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I'm no biochemist, but from what I've read - self-replicating RNA. It's certainly a long way from proof, but it's evidence that points toward abiogenesis being *possible*.

It's also far more evidence than creationism, from any religion/belief, has.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...w=1344&bih=771

Let's also not forget this. You asked for evidence to support natural abiogenesis....
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:05   #429
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I have yet to hear anyone claim a teacher should not admit what science does not know. This does not equate to discussing/teaching creationism in science class. I admit that science doesn't know TONS of stuff. I still see no evidence to support creationism, however.

Why do you automatically assume fear is the motivator? You *do* see the difference between talking about/teaching creationism in science class and admitting that science, today, doesn't know for certain how the universe, or life on this planet, got its start - right?
Can you go back, and find where I've said that I think that teachers should simply state that we really don't know whether life was made here, arrived from somewhere else, or happened due to natural phenomena? It's just a point that science has not answered. I suggested maybe a paragraph on the whole topic, then moving on to what we do know.

I'm not advocating having an entire class on how life was made.

Where did the assumption of fear come from? Maybe the irrationally emotional responses to a reasonable suggestion from some around these parts? Many people lash out when afraid.
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:07   #430
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I'm sure you think you are getting somewhere with this, but it's just not working.
Yeah... it is. He's quite positively illustrated how dishonest you are. And been much more of a gentleman about it than I would have.

Geko really makes you look bad cav-pa
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:19   #431
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Can you go back, and find where I've said that I think that teachers should simply state that we really don't know whether life was made here, arrived from somewhere else, or happened due to natural phenomena? It's just a point that science has not answered. I suggested maybe a paragraph on the whole topic, then moving on to what we do know.

I'm not advocating having an entire class on how life was made.

Where did the assumption of fear come from? Maybe the irrationally emotional responses to a reasonable suggestion from some around these parts? Many people lash out when afraid.
There is no scientific reason to even mention creationism, that's my point. To do so would only be in effort to pacify religious folks. Creationism has no place is science class, even mentioned in passing. Admitting we don't know the answers doesn't necessitate discussion of creationism.

Do you agree?
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:58   #432
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There is no scientific reason to even mention creationism, that's my point. To do so would only be in effort to pacify religious folks. Creationism has no place is science class, even mentioned in passing. Admitting we don't know the answers doesn't necessitate discussion of creationism.

Do you agree?
See, now that is biased.

Some believe that it is impossible that life was created.
Some believe that it is impossible that life just happened.
Some believe that we really don't know yet.

Which one of those would you consider middle ground and the best perspective for a balanced approach.
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:59   #433
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Yeah... it is. He's quite positively illustrated how dishonest you are. And been much more of a gentleman about it than I would have.

Geko really makes you look bad cav-pa
Well, there is at least one thing we can agree on. You being an impartial judge isn't one of them.
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Old 02-06-2013, 17:01   #434
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See, now that is biased.

Some believe that it is impossible that life was created.
Some believe that it is impossible that life just happened.
Some believe that we really don't know yet.

Which one of those would you consider middle ground and the best perspective for a balanced approach.
People believe in witch doctors. For some reason Harvard med school doesn't include that in their classes.

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Old 02-06-2013, 17:02   #435
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Let's also not forget this. You asked for evidence to support natural abiogenesis....
I think I've been pretty consistent, it's possible that life began just as a progression of natural processes. It had to start somehow, that much we can probably agree too. Whether made or just happened is still up in the air for me.
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Old 02-07-2013, 13:16   #436
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See, now that is biased.

Some believe that it is impossible that life was created.
Some believe that it is impossible that life just happened.
Some believe that we really don't know yet.

Which one of those would you consider middle ground and the best perspective for a balanced approach.
Sure, if you want to consider science a bias, I guess you could say that.

BBT/Big Chill/abiogenesis all have scientific evidence to support the possibility that they occurred.

Creationism has zero scientific evidence to support that it occurred.

Explain to me, again, why both should be taught in science class?
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Old 02-07-2013, 13:19   #437
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I think I've been pretty consistent, it's possible that life began just as a progression of natural processes. It had to start somehow, that much we can probably agree too. Whether made or just happened is still up in the air for me.

Then why the request for evidence that points to the fact that it is possible?

Do you now feel that abiogenesis is *more* likely than creationism, since there is evidence to support that it could happen?
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Old 02-07-2013, 19:44   #438
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Sure, if you want to consider science a bias, I guess you could say that.

BBT/Big Chill/abiogenesis all have scientific evidence to support the possibility that they occurred.

Creationism has zero scientific evidence to support that it occurred.

Explain to me, again, why both should be taught in science class?
Science is not a bias. Not apolitical and honest science anyway.

Some scientists believe that Life was made, some believe it just happened.

The middle of the road and most honest approach is that we really don't know.

Both sides of the "How did it all begin" controversy want only their side of the story presented, because they are more interested in indoctrination than education.

I get it, both are very faithful that their interpretation of the data is the only correct interpretation.

And people wonder why an agnostic sees both sides as religious zealots at the far end of the spectrum.

From my perspective, yep, single mindedness and faithful belief in something that there is no proof one way or the other is religious in nature, and in spirit.

It's not that hard to present both sides of the controversial issue in 5 minutes or less, and then move onto the parts that have been proven reasonably.
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Old 02-07-2013, 19:51   #439
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Then why the request for evidence that points to the fact that it is possible?

Do you now feel that abiogenesis is *more* likely than creationism, since there is evidence to support that it could happen?
There is just as much evidence that it was made as there is that it just happened. Which is to say just about none on both sides. It's hard for a person that has made up their mind beyond questioning it to understand, but it is very hard to imagine it being made, and equally very hard to imagine it just coalescing together. One is likely possible, which would completely negate the other.

Two remote possibilities are equally possible, and contradictory at the same time.

It does seem that many people feel a need to choose sides, and some, can just admit that they don't know, and still decide what to have for dinner, what to tell their kids calling from college asking for money, and what to do at work the next day.

The answer is profound, and yet trivial at the same time.
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:36   #440
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Anyone who does not believe in evolution needs to take a genetics class. It's as plain as day. The DNA of a Human and the rest of the great apes are above 98 percent similarity. Mitochondria and Chloroplasts have their own DNA, SEPERATE from the cells, showing that those organelles were once independent organisms. Humans have witnessed evolution, in real time. New species from previous populations arise frequently. MRSA for example. Evolved from STAFF bacteria recently.

Further reading on this subject: Genetric Drift, Gene Flow and Mutations.
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